125 replies to this topic

[TheSilken]

Funkadelic Mayhem, on 02 December 2014 - 07:47 AM, said:

Why not a palestinian flag? Oh thats right Israel keeps taking more and more of their land.

Another example of ignorance. Anyone who doesn't live in Israel or the Middle East, or has never lived or spent a few years there, keep your worthless opinions to yourselves.

Edited by TheSilkenPimp, 02 December 2014 - 07:50 AM.

[Funkadelic Mayhem]

Why not a palestinian flag? Oh thats right Israel keeps taking more and more of their land.

[Savage Wolf]

Nightmare1, on 02 December 2014 - 07:16 AM, said:

The bottomline, however, is that I must choose to see the offensive item. Perhaps I am trolling through the spectator view and accidentally view it; whether or not I continue to view it or choose to take offense at is up to me. By placing your item in the cockpit, you are not offending me or obligating me to view it. I am the one who decides to take the chance that I may see something offensive by cycling spectator cams or remaining in-game in lieu of disconnecting. I am the one who decides to continue viewing something I may find appropriate. I am the one who decides whether or not I will take offense at what I see. People who claim injury due to your item are simply pandering for attention and lacking in personal constraint.

Frankly, comparing a cockpit flag item to a dead baby is about as extreme and misaligned as one can get. Bad example.

I cannot choose not to see something that I do not know not to look at. I can choose not to keep looking at it, but I cannot choose not to look before knowing it's there. That is simply not possible. And if I get offended by seeing something, I will get offended no matter how long I look at it. It's knowing it's there that offends.

So if you could lock the door to your cockpit, you could put anything there for all I care, because no one will ever know.

And I told you it was an extreme example, but that doesn't make it a bad one. Because certain flags or items are only offensive or repulsive to some, but a dead baby is to most and so I was hoping that would also count you, so you could see the effect such an item has.
So the real question is, if I had a dead baby in my cockpit, would you be unphased by it when you saw it because you could simply switch to another cockpit?

And also there is the problem where there is only the offensive cockpit left alive on your team, then you have no choice except to be forced to quit the match that you probably wanted to see the end of.

[Savage Wolf]

Lily from animove, on 02 December 2014 - 07:45 AM, said:

and what if I don't wanna see the US flag? already a problem isn't it? So its quite a debate about right and wrong and want and not want. And by this PGI will decide what is available and what not, except in cases where law forbids a specific symbol and PGI wants to sell MWO there as a product.
And PGI will probably decide by tyicall business cases: Time to make a flag, compared to possible customers.

Exactly and that is why I would prefer that all flags were removed from the game. And yes, since cockpits are public space, anything put there can potentially offend or at least annoy. And when the law is silent, it becomes PGI's responsibility to tell what is allowed and what is not. And they do that currently by simply by putting items in the shop.
But I don't think that flags are worth it compared to the can of worms some flags bring with it. That's part of considering the value of a product as well. Or should be at least if you are a smart business who's not just out for a quick profit.

[Nightmare1]

Karl Streiger, on 02 December 2014 - 07:45 AM, said:

maybe from your point of view - but it could be possible that people take offense by something you can't even imagine.
For example a Hamburger Cockpit Item.

Could be offensive for Indians -because its made my virtual beef - and cattle are holy animals for him.

Cockpit flags have the problem of existing world nations have a problem - everybody has some implication about a nation - may it be good or bad. Thats why i was very upset about the flags right from moment one - (it would have made some sense when it would have been nation flags of the soccer teams for the world cup)

(Not for me - i admit - i would have problems to recognize most flags at all.

Perhaps, but considering the fact that we are playing a stompy robot game with a focus on violently eviscerating enemy Mechs while being laced with profanity and vulgarity via global chat, I find it awfully hard to take people seriously when they say that they will be offended by someone's cockpit flag. I mean, really, if a person's emotional state is fragile enough to be bruised by visibly glimpsing a miniature cockpit flag, while participating in this game's environment, then they probably shouldn't be playing at all.

[Lily from animove]

Savage Wolf, on 02 December 2014 - 08:00 AM, said:

Exactly and that is why I would prefer that all flags were removed from the game. And yes, since cockpits are public space, anything put there can potentially offend or at least annoy. And when the law is silent, it becomes PGI's responsibility to tell what is allowed and what is not. And they do that currently by simply by putting items in the shop.
But I don't think that flags are worth it compared to the can of worms some flags bring with it. That's part of considering the value of a product as well. Or should be at least if you are a smart business who's not just out for a quick profit.

Well actually, this is the world wide web and most online games come with such a weid warning of "online gaming experience may differ" So basically you know you might come across such stuff, so either don't use internet at all, or bear the tolerance to accept it.

And so we are heere, mankind the so called most evolved species on our planet. Doing nothing than inventing new ways to kill and hate each other.

GG evolution.

[CyclonerM]

I agree that we should leave the real world behind when we log in, however in several BT novels you see characters with a scottish accent, russian/chinese names, and some old languages have somewhat survived in the 31st century, starting to the Star League English to all the languages still spoken in the different realms of the Inner Sphere (like german in the Lyran Commonwealth). I can see it might be possible to have someone still feeling some kind of affection for thier ancient country where the early colonists of his planet came from.

To be short, 21st century flags might have a meaning for someone. In the 31st Century.

Maybe they could add a Roman Empire flag in the Battlefield series, for example..

[Nightmare1]

Savage Wolf, on 02 December 2014 - 07:50 AM, said:

I cannot choose not to see something that I do not know not to look at. I can choose not to keep looking at it, but I cannot choose not to look before knowing it's there. That is simply not possible. And if I get offended by seeing something, I will get offended no matter how long I look at it. It's knowing it's there that offends.

Sure you can! If you can't handle the risk of potentially seeing a cockpit flag you dislike, just disco from the match instead of spectating. Your emotional state is left relatively intact, minus whatever damage it suffered after you got killed in match.

As far as offense goes, each person consciously chooses whether or not they will take offense at something. I bet there have been multiple cases in your life where someone did something you took offense at, but which you chose to forgive or ignore. I know I have.

Savage Wolf, on 02 December 2014 - 07:50 AM, said:

And I told you it was an extreme example, but that doesn't make it a bad one. Because certain flags or items are only offensive or repulsive to some, but a dead baby is to most and so I was hoping that would also count you, so you could see the effect such an item has.
So the real question is, if I had a dead baby in my cockpit, would you be unphased by it when you saw it because you could simply switch to another cockpit?

I should hope that a dead baby would be offensive to everyone.

The only flags I can think of that I significantly dislike are the {Godwin's Law}, Russian, Chinese, and Iranian Flags. The {Godwin's Law} were eliminated so that's not an issue. I may not like the Russian, Chinese, or Iranian flags, but if I see them in game then I have the option of ignoring them or choosing not to take offense. I may harbor a significant dislike for those flags and countries, but the people putting them in their cockpit value them. I can't know the reason why they place such value on their flags, but it is up to me as to whether or not I will allow such images to ruin my day. Considering that I already have to put up with significantly more profanity and vulgarity in-game than I find suitable, a cockpit flag is a relatively minor annoyance to me and hardly worth consideration in-game.

They are still a far-cry from a dead baby though. I'm still calling bad example on that one.

Savage Wolf, on 02 December 2014 - 07:50 AM, said:

And also there is the problem where there is only the offensive cockpit left alive on your team, then you have no choice except to be forced to quit the match that you probably wanted to see the end of.

You could always disco. Nobody's holding you in the match against your will.

...Or, if it's really that traumatic for you and you absolutely refuse to disco, then cover your sensitive little eyes with your hands (no peeking between your fingers!) until you hear the victory/loss music playing, heralding the end of the round.

[Savage Wolf]

Nightmare1, on 02 December 2014 - 08:21 AM, said:

Sure you can! If you can't handle the risk of potentially seeing a cockpit flag you dislike, just disco from the match instead of spectating. Your emotional state is left relatively intact, minus whatever damage it suffered after you got killed in match.

So you agree that you cannot simply choose not to look. Disconnecting would be something you would then have to do, even before knowing if there is anything offensive to keep away from. If anyone ever has to do this, we have already failed. Because then someone has been forced away from something that is public space.

Nightmare1, on 02 December 2014 - 08:21 AM, said:

As far as offense goes, each person consciously chooses whether or not they will take offense at something. I bet there have been multiple cases in your life where someone did something you took offense at, but which you chose to forgive or ignore. I know I have.

You cannot forgive or ignore before already having taking offense at something. To forgive or ignore is the response we choose to the offense. And that's stressful. And while it should be expected when you enter a forum like this because we discuss things here, in the game you just want to have fun and relax. So even if you do ignore it, the game has already been less fun.
It's not much different than saying that team killing is okay, because you can simply ignore or forgive it.

Nightmare1, on 02 December 2014 - 08:21 AM, said:

I should hope that a dead baby would be offensive to everyone.

Yeah, hopefully. But then we actually had an example where everyone could see how you didn't want to see that compared to a certain flag that many probably didn't care about. And most would take more offense to a dead baby than a flag except perhaps if they had been at war with that nation, who knows. The level of offensiveness makes a difference, but not on the matter of how and when it will offend.
And if not, please feel free to come with a better example.

Nightmare1, on 02 December 2014 - 08:21 AM, said:

You could always disco. Nobody's holding you in the match against your will.

...Or, if it's really that traumatic for you and you absolutely refuse to disco, then cover your sensitive little eyes with your hands (no peeking between your fingers!) until you hear the victory/loss music playing, heralding the end of the round.

But then I'm being discouraged to take part in a part of the game that should be accessible to everyone. This way, only the ones who takes offense at nothing are the ones able to spectate. And it would only lead to the game becoming more toxic.

I know several people who don't play online games simply because of how toxic ingame chat is in most online games. Why should it be any different with cockpit items.

[Gauvan]

I don’t think there is anything wrong with national pride, and I wish we lived in a world where people coexisted peacefully and rationally everywhere. But we don’t, and misdirected nationalism is a frequent cause of all sorts of negative consequences, much as religious zealotry can be.

While I think the overwhelming majority of people of faith are willing to coexist harmoniously with members of other religions, a small minority are not--that small minority can damage relations far more than their numbers should allow. Because of this I hope there will be wide agreement among the players that having explicitly religious symbols as decorative items is a bad idea. I feel the same way about national flags as decorative items as I do having a crucifix.

As an aside, I think there is a difference between representations that have the potential to act as lightning rods and those that are somewhat cultural in nature but which are less likely to act as a rally point for extreme behavior. So I draw a line between a crucifix and the angel painted on the recent bonus Atlas and Centurion because one is a focus of a particular religion’s worship and the other is imagery common to several faiths and secular cultures.

One of the interesting things about the BattleTech fictional universe is that it provides pseudo nations with some of the flavor of current cultures and politics but does two things.

First, no fictional nation is a pure representation of a current society or nation, e.g., the Capellan Confederation is not the PRC--it’s a little PRC, a lot of classical Chinese culture, plus Russian and southern Asian influences. If any of those influences speak to you then you can identify with the Confederation without a lot of specific baggage.

Second, there are no good guys or bad guys in BT, at least not in a broad socio-historical sense. All the political bodies are, frankly, pretty terrible to their citizens and neighbors and are run by an almost limitless supply of petty, selfish, and warlike leaders. The value of this from a player perspective is that it doesn’t really lend itself to identifying too closely with one of the fictional political groups--while it might be a fun universe to play in I don’t think any informed person would choose to live there.

The combination of these two factors gives MWO a nice middle ground to play in, pushing the identification of players with fictional nations away from real world nationalism and towards something that is just window dressing or (for those passionate about lore) to something approaching sports fandom.

[Galen Crayn]

Quote

Another example of ignorance

Hahaha, typical jewish argumentation. Everybody who is against them or who criticize them is ignorant, is anti-semite or has no plan of history. Ridiculous!!!! Thats the reason more and more people all over the world hate Israel. Youre illegal invaders! It was your land 2000 years ago? who cares? In the last 2000 years it wasnt yours. And youre not gods favorite The world no longer believe your lies and the anti-semite card was overplayed. Now the world can see that you are murderer and psychopaths!

Edited by Galen Crayn, 02 December 2014 - 09:26 AM.

[TheSilken]

I'm not Jewish Galen. Still using your internet and Western media "facts" to guide your misinformed opinion? Get some actual knowledge and experience and I'll listen but until then there's no reason for me to validate your opinions.

[Galen Crayn]

i am well informed, thanks

One question, where was your israel before 1948 or better 1922?

Edited by Galen Crayn, 02 December 2014 - 09:34 AM.

[Savage Wolf]

TheSilkenPimp, on 02 December 2014 - 09:27 AM, said:

I'm not Jewish Galen. Still using your internet and Western media "facts" to guide your misinformed opinion? Get some actual knowledge and experience and I'll listen but until then there's no reason for me to validate your opinions.

Galen Crayn, on 02 December 2014 - 09:31 AM, said:

i am well informed, thanks

One question, where was your israel before 1948?

This is two good examples of why we should not have flags in the game.

[Galen Crayn]

i agree savage wolf

[TheSilken]

If you want some answers to your question Galen then I will be happy to PM you them.

[Galen Crayn]

It was a rhetorical question

[TheSilken]

Well either way this thread has been bogged down enough. Back to Battletech

[Galen Crayn]

Back to Battletech where i can hate all houses but my one For house Steiner!

[Kalamity27]

I play games for the immersion quality and spend all day dealing with the real world. I understand PGI is just trying to pay the bills. But I wish they wouldn't have implemented the RL flags.