125 replies to this topic

[Expansion Of Consciousness]

Why is there no Israel flag for the cockpit?

Ok, I can see that there are only ~8.000.000 people living in Israel. But still, I'm serious.
+ I wondered what the requirements for the already implemented flags of nations were anyway. Is it about population? Purchasing power?

[TheSilken]

It's just easier for them to avoid it all together. Then people would want a Palestinian flag (even though they have no right since they aren't even a culture) which would open the door for issues. I wish that they would add it but it's unlikely.

[Expansion Of Consciousness]

I wasn't expecting someone even replying with a pro comment. Nice to see that.
But I don't want to avoid it. I want to confront. + I would like to see what PGI says about that matter or if they would even be ready to implement the flag.

[TheSilken]

PGI would probably never say anything about the matter as it would only reflect poorly on them. As for confronting it this isn't the place as people dont really understand anything about Israel, the middle east, or what's really happening over there. I like the enthusiasm though.

[Nightmare1]

Generally speaking, businesses and political entities avoid anything that is even remotely controversial. Despite Israel's obvious defensive posture and victim status when dealing with the Palestinians, some folks just can't see it the way it is and cry havoc at the thought of a pro-Israeli concept. Frankly, considering what all the Israelis went through in WWII, I think that a cockpit item would be a nice tip of the hat to them, especially when you consider the fact that Germany has a flag.

Anyways, that's just my two cents. As sad as the thought is, I rather expect this thread to go the same way my patriotic paint schemes suggestion thread went. Apparently, expressing patriotism is a bad thing in today's society.

How pitiful.

[Savage Wolf]

All you need to do to figure out why that isn't there is to simply read this thread. It's already filled with emotions and politics and some that doesn't even have anything to do with this game. Why would any game developer ever want to waste time on that.

But to be fair, I think it's silly that any flag was added to the game, both because to be fair, all 200 or something nations in the world should be there and because this game has nothing to do with Denmark or Japan. It's about Draconis Combine vs Lyrans or clans, leave the real world behind when you log in.

[Nightmare1]

Savage Wolf, on 29 November 2014 - 02:41 PM, said:

All you need to do to figure out why that isn't there is to simply read this thread. It's already filled with emotions and politics and some that doesn't even have anything to do with this game. Why would any game developer ever want to waste time on that.

Character assassination and dismissal. Classic.

[Savage Wolf]

Not really. I think most if not everyone has emotions or political views associated with one or more flags. So it's not really a criticism of anyone, just stating a fact, but one that needs to be considered.

So, do we really want to bring that into MWO? I think there are better forums and channels for that.

[Gauvan]

Savage Wolf, on 29 November 2014 - 02:53 PM, said:

Not really. I think most if not everyone has emotions or political views associated with one or more flags. So it's not really a criticism of anyone, just stating a fact, but one that needs to be considered.

So, do we really want to bring that into MWO? I think there are better forums and channels for that.

I agree with Wolf on this one. I think it is a mistake to add national flags to the game because of the 5% of cases that generate tension and conflict from players bringing real world politics into an online community. It's not just Israel and Palestine. Off the top of my head I would list Cyprus, Republic of China, the PRC, Vatican City as well as various historical flags like the USSR, which from a lore perspective didn’t collapse as in our timeline (if I remember my BT history correctly).

The alternative is to add all national flags, but then PGI has to become an arbiter of nationhood or suitability and that way lies madness.

I feel PGI should pull all the national flags and think carefully ahead of time about their policies around player-designed badges.

[PASHA]

Personally I think all flags should be done away with. This is a Battletech game and as such should remain apolitical.

[Karl Streiger]

Pasha Osis, on 02 December 2014 - 12:11 AM, said:

Personally I think all flags should be done away with. This is a Battletech game and as such should remain apolitical.

QFT - no flags at all.
We have our own politics in BattleTech we don't need real world problems.

Just and example - the following should not insult anybody - i my words hurt you please tell me - i will delete them.

Nightmare1, on 29 November 2014 - 12:59 PM, said:

Frankly, considering what all the Israelis went through in WWII, I think that a cockpit item would be a nice tip of the hat to them, especially when you consider the fact that Germany has a flag.

Anyways, that's just my two cents. As sad as the thought is, I rather expect this thread to go the same way my patriotic paint schemes suggestion thread went. Apparently, expressing patriotism is a bad thing in today's society.

Patriotism isn't a bad thing - the problem is patriotism hurts other peoples.
You brought an excellent example in the sentence about WWII... should I'm allowed to show patriotism? What is patriotism - in fact Germany in the current constellation exists for 25 years - the FLAG while "founded" before 1933 - represents another country as those that committed the crimes - and not the country committed the crimes but a small bunch of peoples.
So should i feel a "blood" dept vs Russians or British or French People because they killed people of my family? No i don't because i never knowed those persons but from photographs

So and because i have seen your Molon Labe - for you its a kind of patriotism to have you guns. It is what you understand for patriotism - but this is something i can't understand - you have millions of handguns in your country but fear the Kinder Surprise

Edited by Karl Streiger, 02 December 2014 - 12:29 AM.

[Nightmare1]

Karl Streiger, on 02 December 2014 - 12:28 AM, said:

Patriotism isn't a bad thing - the problem is patriotism hurts other peoples.
You brought an excellent example in the sentence about WWII... should I'm allowed to show patriotism? What is patriotism - in fact Germany in the current constellation exists for 25 years - the FLAG while "founded" before 1933 - represents another country as those that committed the crimes - and not the country committed the crimes but a small bunch of peoples.
So should i feel a "blood" dept vs Russians or British or French People because they killed people of my family? No i don't because i never knowed those persons but from photographs

So and because i have seen your Molon Labe - for you its a kind of patriotism to have you guns. It is what you understand for patriotism - but this is something i can't understand - you have millions of handguns in your country but fear the Kinder Surprise

Right, I agree with you on that. While the past certainly has many examples of strife, the water under that bridge has long since passed. Frankly, I don't have any issue with anyone expressing their patriotism by placing a flag in their cockpit; I think that's kind of cool. What always amazes me is that there are some folks that see such expressions as the end of the world.

I may not like the particular country that is being extolled by such examples of patriotism, but I won't begrudge a person their right to express such pride. Like Voltaire says, "I do not agree with your opinion, but I will defend to the death your right to express it." If I want to place a flag in my cockpit, then I have to be willing for others to place their own flags in their cockpits too.

As far as Kinder Surprises go, I really appreciate you providing the URL; I had to look it up! Those actually look pretty neat. The only reason I can think of for why they are disallowed here, would be the potential choking hazards they represent. Our FDA is fanatical about that.

...And you're right; Patriotism has various meanings for different people and people groups. Still, I don't think that cockpit flags are an issue in this game. They are cockpit flags after all, which makes them fairly private. The only time people see them is if they decide to spectate on your Mech. At that point, the choice is theirs as to whether or not the wish to keep spectating if they decide to take offense at the flag they find in mine.

[Zephonarch II]

Would it really kill immersion by adding extra flags? Really why would anyone want a flag on their Cockpit-dashboard to begin with? It's somewhat distracting. This just isn't a new problem, some groups specifically want to be recognized for where they come from. And because of that, player's would paste their flag or coat of arms on the mech as a custom decal. I't's not new to me. And therefore more communities are welcomed including the politics. But besides being "politically correct", it's not about appealing to everyone, it's about having the freedom to run games showing off your own flag. And if we ever get to use decals, it's going to happen anyways. But probably not.

Frankfully, I'm alright with Israel's flag. I'm Zionist. It's very similar to the origin of my alias in-game. Not that anyone would want to care about where I came from pyschologically; it's my own life. I don't care about where others came from if they have respectable character and live by morals that often. A ML.King quote which isn't taken seriously in this day and age. I don't need to conform to the norm developing in liberalism lately, without asking the serious questions first. Some people today just have little opinions on such matters though. Like, under-developed shallow stereotypical conformed paradigms. What if I say I'm 100% for Israel? I'd be blasted by so many groups who just passively want to accept everyone when really they have no opinion that's theirs. People today need to do some research. It's a very old conflict that can throw you into places you thought you'd never believe true before.

...

But that's besides the point. This is MWO.

We won't see more flags if it brings controversy.

In the meantime, I'm just another random name in this game!

Edited by Zephonarch II, 02 December 2014 - 06:28 AM.

[Lily from animove]

how many of those 8million actually even have a pc and internet, , and further even play MWO? I think flagsare mainly added by the number of people a country has as players.

[TheSilken]

Let me guess Galen you live in Europe or the Americas right? So ignorant.

Edit: I bet that you get all of your facts from the media and Internet and that you have never even set foot in the Middle East or Israel. You have no experience or knowledge of Middle Eastern culture. Bottom line your opinion is null and void so you should probably just shut up and move on.

Edited by TheSilkenPimp, 02 December 2014 - 07:43 AM.

[Savage Wolf]

Nightmare1, on 02 December 2014 - 05:34 AM, said:

...And you're right; Patriotism has various meanings for different people and people groups. Still, I don't think that cockpit flags are an issue in this game. They are cockpit flags after all, which makes them fairly private. The only time people see them is if they decide to spectate on your Mech. At that point, the choice is theirs as to whether or not the wish to keep spectating if they decide to take offense at the flag they find in mine.

I'm sorry, but cockpits in this game is public space because everyone can see your cockpit. You choose what is there, but you cannot limit who can see it and people cannot opt out on being able to see certain cockpits. So until such a time, cockpits are public spaces.

Lets give an extreme example: I somehow find a way to put a dead baby in my cockpit. You can only see it by spectating me, but you have no way of knowing that spectating me will expose you to dead babies and while you can choose to spectate someone else (unless I'm the only one left alive) you have still already been exposed to something you didn't want to see.

Edited by Savage Wolf, 02 December 2014 - 06:56 AM.

[Nightmare1]

Galen Crayn, on 02 December 2014 - 06:23 AM, said:

If they would bring the israel flag they could implement the {Godwin's Law} flag with the hakenkreuz too - both tried genocide. Israel has no right to exist, because the land they live in isnt theres. It is Palestine land. For me the state israel is a misdeed. So, please PGI dont do it

Virtually every country in history has tried genocide against another; it's as old as time itself. That doesn't excuse it, but griping that some country hurt another at some point in history isn't really a reason to judge them as though they are unique in instigating that hurt.

As far as whether the land they inhabit is Israeli or Palestinian, that's another issue entirely.

...And to say that an entire nation is a misdeed is awfully arrogant. Just sayin'.

[Nightmare1]

Savage Wolf, on 02 December 2014 - 06:56 AM, said:

I'm sorry, but cockpits in this game is public space because everyone can see your cockpit. You choose what is there, but you cannot limit who can see it and people cannot opt out on being able to see certain cockpits. So until such a time, cockpits are public spaces.

Lets give an extreme example: I somehow find a way to put a dead baby in my cockpit. You can only see it by spectating me, but you have no way of knowing that spectating me will expose you to dead babies and while you can choose to spectate someone else (unless I'm the only one left alive) you have still already been exposed to something you didn't want to see.

The bottomline, however, is that I must choose to see the offensive item. Perhaps I am trolling through the spectator view and accidentally view it; whether or not I continue to view it or choose to take offense at is up to me. By placing your item in the cockpit, you are not offending me or obligating me to view it. I am the one who decides to take the chance that I may see something offensive by cycling spectator cams or remaining in-game in lieu of disconnecting. I am the one who decides to continue viewing something I may find appropriate. I am the one who decides whether or not I will take offense at what I see. People who claim injury due to your item are simply pandering for attention and lacking in personal constraint.

Frankly, comparing a cockpit flag item to a dead baby is about as extreme and misaligned as one can get. Bad example.

[Karl Streiger]

Nightmare1, on 02 December 2014 - 07:16 AM, said:

Frankly, comparing a cockpit flag item to a dead baby is about as extreme and misaligned as one can get. Bad example.

maybe from your point of view - but it could be possible that people take offense by something you can't even imagine.
For example a Hamburger Cockpit Item.

Could be offensive for Indians -because its made my virtual beef - and cattle are holy animals for him.

Cockpit flags have the problem of existing world nations have a problem - everybody has some implication about a nation - may it be good or bad. Thats why i was very upset about the flags right from moment one - (it would have made some sense when it would have been nation flags of the soccer teams for the world cup)

(Not for me - i admit - i would have problems to recognize most flags at all.

[Lily from animove]

Savage Wolf, on 02 December 2014 - 06:56 AM, said:

I'm sorry, but cockpits in this game is public space because everyone can see your cockpit. You choose what is there, but you cannot limit who can see it and people cannot opt out on being able to see certain cockpits. So until such a time, cockpits are public spaces.

Lets give an extreme example: I somehow find a way to put a dead baby in my cockpit. You can only see it by spectating me, but you have no way of knowing that spectating me will expose you to dead babies and while you can choose to spectate someone else (unless I'm the only one left alive) you have still already been exposed to something you didn't want to see.

and what if I don't wanna see the US flag? already a problem isn't it? So its quite a debate about right and wrong and want and not want. And by this PGI will decide what is available and what not, except in cases where law forbids a specific symbol and PGI wants to sell MWO there as a product.
And PGI will probably decide by tyicall business cases: Time to make a flag, compared to possible customers.