6 replies to this topic

[Cementi]

It seems to me that every day there is a new post complaining about how something in mwo is op. ECM, LRM's, Gauss Rifles, Small Pulse Laser Firestarters......like any MMO this is part of the the game experiance. There will always be game mechanics that are percieved as overpowered. I love this game and for the most part do alot of defending of PGI's decisions on my merc companies teamspeak. That does not mean I agree with all of them.

I am a table top Battletech player but I fully understand that changes from lore needed to be made to make a shooter version game work. ie doubled armor values. The following are my perceptions of why I think we have a game balance issue in MWO, they are for the most part in order of what I think are the most serious to the trivial.

#1. Heat : No not ghost heat. Heat in general is way out of control. Now I understand that changes from table top rate of fire (where an AC 20 and a small laser both can only fire once per round) were nessesary but then the heat values should have been adjusted to compensate. For example why should the AC 2 have heat issues?

However I can overlook rate of fire and weapon heat values because the real issue is the differeance of heat disapation from table top to online. In table top double heat sinks were for most mechs an improvement yes. However on many heat efficient builds it was favorable to go with standard heat sinks to save crit space. It was a tactical choice. In MWO double heat sinks are mandatory on 99% of builds and even then they do not work well enough. This is not even taking into consideration the fact that additional heat sinks outside of the engine only worrk as a x1.4 instead of a x2.

I am piloting a SHD-2Hb in my table top game. For table top its a very solid mech mwo its ok but not something I would normally pilot though I have had a couple good games with it. It can only generate 12 heat before movement but it can dissipate 22. Meaning I completely ignore my heat scale with the mech. Honestly the extra double hit sink it has is silly I would rather have more ammo ( for mwo ) or more armor but that is what the mech comes with. Yet even this crazy heat efficient mech can overheat in mwo. Here is the build I used to SHD-2D2 to emulate it

SHD-2D2

This issue with heat is why we see so many Gauss Rifles in use. It is not because they are the best (though they are damn good and I would not argue someone who said they were) it is because they are top tier AND generate no heat to speak of. Fix the heat scale and you will see less Gauss on the field.

Also the heat scale chart they had lots of flavor. Not simply you overheat shutdown (likely die) and then come back with internal CT damage. Movement speed could be affected aiming would be difficult ( I would suggest an increased time to lock targets and gather targeting info to simulate this possibly an increase to weapon cooldown) and you had a chance to cook off your ammo if you had any as well.

2. Red Dorito's and ECM : Both part of the same issue IMO. Stealth in this game cannot be accomplished without having ECM under current rules as the moment sensors pick up the mech instead of the pilot needing some degree of perception both at a distance and periferal awareness of his map hud he suddenly gets a giant red box with a red triangle that literally shouts "HEY THERE IS A MECH HERE".

Mechs within sensor range should appear on the hud regardless of blocking terrain unless they are shut down or under ECM. However if the pilot notices a red blip on his map (no ecm) he should have to actively look for the target. If he sees it then he locks the target and then you can transmit the red dorito of death for indirect fire and showing everyone where the enemy is (sorry indirect fire haters, it was part of table top and a valid tactic you ll have to deal with IMO). If the target is under ECM it should function the same with the exception that you would not get the red blip on the map unless someone is running counter ECM or BAP.

This would allow non ECM mechs to scout as now it would be dependant on if they are in sensor range and how observant the enemy pilot is to determine if they are detected instead of "HEY THERE IS A MECH HERE" from the red dorito of death.

3. Non Canon Weapon Effects : This encompasses a few things that I think are problems that need to be addressed.

Cabin shake and smoke are first on my list. Both LRM's and ballistics abuse this mechanic. There was nothing in table top that gave you penalties to ht when being hit by these weapons systems. It may make sense but it does not make fun as typically your only option when under missle barrage or dakka is to hide instead of returning fire. The addition of these factors gives a HUGE unfair advantage to the one who shoots first, and yet it still is number 3 on my list of the balance issues with the game. At the VERY least the smoke needs to go. It is silly that my double AC2 Blackjack can pin people down so well.

Laser burn time. Ok I get it lasers should require time on target to do their damage as they are essentially a heat based weapon it would take time to burn through armor and because they do not require lead time like ballistics it makes sense that their needs to be an element of skill added to their use. So hey I am ok with burn time ..... except why did ballistics and missles get major buffs in the form of increased ammo per ton, cabin shake and smoke while lasers got indirect damage in the form of a dot. The only time it is usefull over direct damage is when piloting or facing a fast light mech, in virtually every other scenario it is detrimental as it gives away your position and leaves you vulnerable to pinpoint ballistics that fire much faster and can take advantage of your torso being locked for you to do damage while they can fire and then turn away and spread it. If you were going to add a non cannon weapon effect to ballistics (actually two) then why would you not add the logical one for lasers.....heat. I know that was the flamers schtick so if you did not want to infringe on its territory then why not some kind of armor softening mechanic. Im not looking to make lasers OP I just think it is silly to add something to one and not the other. I would much prefer shake and smoke to simply not exist.

Flamers and their exponential heat gain. These weapons might actually see use if after a couple seconds they started doing far more heat to yourself than your target.

PPC's interrupting ECM. Not a big deal and I could be wrong on this one but I recall something in the fluff text that they could cause problems to electronics but I do not recall any actual game rules for them doing so. Either way its not a big problem and rarely comes into play.

4. Weapon Ranges : These are not even close to canon and while I do not have a huge issue with it, and some of the changes were needed (small lasers and machineguns). I think these could also be part of the issue. I think the extreme range on a Gauss was actually something like 900m not the 1980m it is in mwo. Tweaks are fine, like the pulse laser range changes as it was apparent that a slightly shorter burn time did not simulate the accuracy one gained from them in table top ( personally I think it should have been a greatly reduced burn time but whatever I am ok with them as they are now.) LRM's are only supposed to be something like 840m instead of 1000m. I could be off on this stuff a bit because I think a hex in battle tech was something like 30m.

I still love the game, just some things I would like to see changed even if not exactly as I mentioned. Simply changing them means you acknowlage that there is a problem and are working on them.

[Mudhutwarrior]

I think the game is pretty well balanced. If its found not to be buff rather than nerf. The implementation of quirks showed it works.

[superteds]

games pretty balanced at the moment imo. we're a long way away from the hexa-stalkers, 3lapocolypse and white-whale-cat days.

it's actually fun to play!

[Cementi]

This recent addition to quirks was definately one of the well thought out non canon things they have done. I have no complaints on any of them though some more defensive quirks would have been nice to see as well as some utility maybe. It is a system they plan to evolve on though so I think it will only get better as they refine it.

However as good as the quirk system is for many mechs it simply has allowed specific builds to work around some of the fundamental flaws that I mentioned above. Most prominently the heat scale as the most noticeable quirks at least for me are the ones that reduce the heat of a weapon. Rate of fire is great but only if you can handle the heat. The CDA-3C used to be IMO a garbage mech however with the changes it is actually rather fun to run around with a ER PPC and 4 machine guns. However if they had only given the mech the quirks they did minus the one that reduces the heat of the ER PPC it would still be a garbage mech.

[Variant1]

Well to be honest mechwarrior as a shooter is better suited to pve, when you look at some of the weapons you notice they do alot better then most of the other weapons for example the gauss or ppc.

[kilgor]

Originally, before recent changes, PGI essentially went by Solaris VII rules for ranges, cooldown, heat, etc. They had to introduce ghost heat, because they didn't implement the heat scale like in BT/Solaris VII. If thy had, a lot of people would be shutting down more frequently. And, fully elited out, you heat sinks equal Double Heat Sinks.

[Mcgral18]

kilgor, on 29 November 2014 - 08:35 PM, said:

And, fully elited out, you heat sinks equal Double Heat Sinks.

At 10 engine DHS you're at 2.3 H/s, or 11.5 DHS worth.

At 18, you are below 0.2 H/s, and 17 just above. That's the cutoff for true DHS.