444 replies to this topic

[Jon Gotham]

Telmasa, on 01 December 2014 - 06:15 PM, said:

It takes a different style of play to enjoy them. That's all there is to it.

We'll agree to disagree then. But don't say "that's all there is to it."
If teams would push and be more aggressive clan mechs would work much better-that's how it was at the start, now the camping/hiding/cowering peek a boo snipe play hurts clanners hard. Extended contact time weapons don't work so well in that type of combat.
You say about heat, they were already crazy hot at launch now the laser nerfs have made them a joke....just 4 er medium lasers are seriously hot. Look at what has been done to the nova......

Just because you like them and it suits you does not mean they are good, all it means is they suit you.

[Jetfire]

Clan mechs are very good at pushing together, they form a death ball better than most IS mechs will due to their close speeds. They need to get targets in the open and pushing them is how you do it.

IS mechs require positioning considerations due to the speed gaps. They can make short pushes but rely more on long range support mixed with short range guerilla tactics.

Clans are still better at the push but since IS can now seriously dish it out, pushing has become scary and clans are trying to sit and snipe far more often.

Most of the IS mech chassis are now nominally viable in at least one or two builds. Most of the clans are viable, though some need a little help such as the Nova and Adder. The newer Mist Lynx is pretty dangerous for a 25 ton mech, but the arms need some quirks as you are limited to arm weapons only. The TBR is always going to be a king of the battlefield, I think it would be pretty fair once a 20% speed hit was added for ST loss on Clan XL's, still amazing, but less imba. The DWF carries huge firepower, but I am not convinced it needs nerfing, maybe a few negative quirks... maybe.

I think the fact you can have a good game in almost any mech already means the balance isn't as far off as it sometimes feels, there are definite peaks that stand out, but all in all balance is not in a horrible place right now, IS or Clan.

[CDLord HHGD]

I think we've reached parity between the IS and Clan. The Timberwolf, Stormcrow, and Dire Wolf are all hard hitting and high performing mechs, but they are not the gods some say they are. I've seen Jagermechs, Stalkers, and SRM Mediums just as lethal. The DWF's main threat comes from lights. All things being meta, there is no difference. This is in itself a sad commentary. This is all POST quirkening. When the Clans get their quirks, I hope to see some of their superiority return.

Been reading recently the novel where Victor goes to Strana Mechty and issues his Trial of Refusal. At that point in time, 3060, they specifically spoke about the IS company (12) being the equal of the Clan binary (10). This is 10+ years from now and the IS still hasn't caught up in the Lore. We IS players should be vastly out-matched by the Clans still in ~3050. When CW hits in just a couple short weeks, I surely hope that PGI has a trick up their sleeve for this.

[The Boz]

...meanwhile, some TT/lore purists still want to see Clams outright superior because reasons....
*sigh*

[CDLord HHGD]

The Boz, on 02 December 2014 - 05:43 AM, said:

QQ Clams QQ
*sigh*

This right here is what I am talking about. They are the Clans, not clams. I show so much respect for the lore because people like you show so little. It's the lore that has allowed this genre to survive for decades.

[The Boz]

Clam - somewhat derogatory abbreviation of Clan 'Mech.
And there's a reason lore and gameplay mechanics are rarely in sync.

[lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol]

Khorn1, on 30 November 2014 - 03:59 PM, said:

Daishi need to be fixed.This dinosaur can equip four lbx-10 ac or ac10.I see that one once, and he is kill 5 mechs one by one.Another time i see daishi with 2 lbx-20AC and tons of lasers.And this is op.
But summoner have 70 tons weight and he have only 23 tons of equipment.47 tons of garbage.But freaking daishi got 50 tons of place.

Dire Wolf with 2 LBX-20's and tons of lasers, eh? How? at most a few ER large lasers and maybe a LPL in the CT? Wow, so OP.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...33bb91cd53b0b77

Edited by 00ohDstruct, 02 December 2014 - 06:10 AM.

[FupDup]

Kiryuin Ragyo, on 02 December 2014 - 06:56 AM, said:

[REDACTED]

I'm totally adding that to my Forum Weapons folder.

Edited by Mal, 05 December 2014 - 11:21 PM.
Removed quoted moderated content

[Almond Brown]

Phashe, on 01 December 2014 - 09:22 AM, said:

Summary of 17 pages: Players who want to play clan mechs think IS are OP, and hate clan nerfs, etc, etc. And vice versa for IS mech lovers. :-)

And can one more person please make the 'depends on the pilot' comment?!?? Geez. I can compare two models of cars and discuss which is superior and why without bringing the driver's abilities into the discussion, but GOD FORBID we talk about quality of mech chassis without people going to pilot skill as a "viable" argument...(sorry... Venting done).

Think of the Pilot as the last allowed Module you get to install into any build you make. Would you put in a Bad module, a Mediocre module or the best possible module?

That is why talk of the Pilot is very relevant. Same if you were to race your 2 cars cars for Pinks.

[Almond Brown]

Mcgral18, on 01 December 2014 - 11:36 AM, said:

I don't suppose you've looked at the SPL quirks? It's only 15% more range, and 15% less heat.
Not exactly significant.

The real question is, did the SPL really need that buff on that Chassis, even if only a "not exactly significant" one?

When a FS with 7 or 8 SPL (32pt. Alpha or 2 shots to Leg a fully armored 75t Mech) gets to its optimal range, and it can do so quite well, they generate 50% less heat and do 80% of the damage profile of the Medium Laser. And as a bonus, the SPL does not incur a Ghost Heat penalty, unlike the ML.

As to the OP. CW will dictate the answer to that. When it is just Clan vs I.S., a true test of how much the sides can "synergize" each other is sets of 12. If already done, someone please post/note those results.

Edited by Almond Brown, 02 December 2014 - 09:32 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

cdlord, on 02 December 2014 - 05:41 AM, said:

I think we've reached parity between the IS and Clan. The Timberwolf, Stormcrow, and Dire Wolf are all hard hitting and high performing mechs, but they are not the gods some say they are. I've seen Jagermechs, Stalkers, and SRM Mediums just as lethal. The DWF's main threat comes from lights. All things being meta, there is no difference. This is in itself a sad commentary. This is all POST quirkening. When the Clans get their quirks, I hope to see some of their superiority return.

Been reading recently the novel where Victor goes to Strana Mechty and issues his Trial of Refusal. At that point in time, 3060, they specifically spoke about the IS company (12) being the equal of the Clan binary (10). This is 10+ years from now and the IS still hasn't caught up in the Lore. We IS players should be vastly out-matched by the Clans still in ~3050. When CW hits in just a couple short weeks, I surely hope that PGI has a trick up their sleeve for this.

Only time a Jagermech is "as lethal" as a Timby is if you are in a GaussJager way in the back being ignored, or a boom jager with a clean shot on the Timby's back.

Lower armor, lower speed, barndoor side torsos and insta-death XL if you want any mobility with those big guns means that while situationally, the Jager can best it, in total, it's inferior, and not particularly close.

[Bishop Steiner]

00ohDstruct, on 02 December 2014 - 06:09 AM, said:

Dire Wolf with 2 LBX-20's and tons of lasers, eh? How? at most a few ER large lasers and maybe a LPL in the CT? Wow, so OP.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...33bb91cd53b0b77

not to mention how quick the pop once a Huginn parks behind them, lol.

[Sjorpha]

Almond Brown, on 02 December 2014 - 08:53 AM, said:

Think of the Pilot as the last allowed Module you get to install into any build you make. Would you put in a Bad module, a Mediocre module or the best possible module?

I would install the best possible module, in ALL mechs. And the difference between them would not be that module anymore than radar deprivation or seismic sensor.

"It depends on the pilot" type arguments are just basic logical fallacies.

[Bishop Steiner]

Almond Brown, on 02 December 2014 - 09:30 AM, said:

The real question is, did the SPL really need that buff on that Chassis, even if only a "not exactly significant" one?

When a FS with 7 or 8 SPL (32pt. Alpha or 2 shots to Leg a fully armored 75t Mech) gets to its optimal range, and it can do so quite well, they generate 50% less heat and do 80% of the damage profile of the Medium Laser. And as a bonus, the SPL does not incur a Ghost Heat penalty, unlike the ML.

As to the OP. CW will dictate the answer to that. When it is just Clan vs I.S., a true test of how much the sides can "synergize" each other is sets of 12. If already done, someone please post/note those results.

not to mention a cooldown/beam duration comparison of firing every 2.75 seconds vs every 4 seconds, before any modifiers.

32 dmg, every 2.03 seconds for for 13.6 heat generated, on a 150 kph Light, with extremely well known and documented hitreg issues (made massively more huge by feathering the single JJ most compies will be packing in it)........

Yeah, not broken at all. No reason why EVERY competitive Light pilot is using it atm?

Not even getting into the stupidity of no firestarters being flamer quirked to try to make flamers actually useful (because apparently, most people are not imaginative enough to figure out how to do it)..........

[Almond Brown]

Sjorpha, on 02 December 2014 - 09:46 AM, said:

I would install the best possible module, in ALL mechs. And the difference between them would not be that module anymore than radar deprivation or seismic sensor.

"It depends on the pilot" type arguments are just basic logical fallacies.

2 exact Mechs, one gets a New Player Pilot, the other a Veteran Pilot. Tell me that the Pilots will not decide who wins. Your argument to the contrary makes little to no sense...

[Jetfire]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 December 2014 - 09:51 AM, said:

not to mention a cooldown/beam duration comparison of firing every 2.75 seconds vs every 4 seconds, before any modifiers.

32 dmg, every 2.03 seconds for for 13.6 heat generated, on a 150 kph Light, with extremely well known and documented hitreg issues (made massively more huge by feathering the single JJ most compies will be packing in it)........

Yeah, not broken at all. No reason why EVERY competitive Light pilot is using it atm?

Not even getting into the stupidity of no firestarters being flamer quirked to try to make flamers actually useful (because apparently, most people are not imaginative enough to figure out how to do it)..........

The Firestarter SPL builds may be the most broken thing at the moment. Yet the light queue is not 40%... so despite how crazy good that is for a light... its not significantly altering the overall meta, just the light sector. Still needs to be fixed though.

[Revis Volek]

Kiryuin Ragyo, on 02 December 2014 - 06:56 AM, said:

[REDACTED]

First thing you ever put up i found genuinely amusing Kiryuin.

Edited by Mal, 05 December 2014 - 11:23 PM.
Removed quoted moderated content

[Timuroslav]

Honestly, as much as pilot skill, is the biggest most important Variable in this game... It needs to be ruled out if this game is ever going to be balanced. Otherwise balancing the equation becomes impossible. Don't get me wrong, I like mechwarrior a ****-ton because it relies on all different kinds of Skill so much.

But, if we want a Fun game it needs to be balanced or Fair in some shape or form.
Unbalanced games get boring really fast. To increase player retention the game needs to be more fair.

Depends on Pilot skill is a valid answer But,
for the sake of Arguments

It is an abused answer, that just derails topics.
so I agree with Sjorpha.

Edited by Timuroslav, 02 December 2014 - 09:59 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Sjorpha, on 02 December 2014 - 09:46 AM, said:

I would install the best possible module, in ALL mechs. And the difference between them would not be that module anymore than radar deprivation or seismic sensor.

"It depends on the pilot" type arguments are just basic logical fallacies.

In this instance, I agree, though in general not 100% true. Anytime you introduce the "human element" into an equation, it adds unpredictable variables. a .44 magnum is a "better" handgun cartridge than a .357. More power, more penetration, better range, and seems in general easier to load for accuracy. But in the hands of actual people, (not even getting into situational variables) it may not be, because it's recoil is such that many people cannot use it effectively.

End of the day, while you have to base the chassis on their "paper" merits overall, for comparison to one another, one cannot overlook the human element when it comes to how individual players will do in each one. The biggest issue is,that there is no "measurement" that can accurately predict and catalogue that factor.

But that in the end has more to do with how individual pilots do (usually in "sub-optimal" builds, than comparing en masses, where the genpop will generally fall into the mainstream categories, and the human factor has to do more with outliers (like me kicking peoples butt in a Vindicator. Objectively a worse mech than the BJ-1, but subjectively, in my hands, miles better)

That said (rather long windedly, too!) in THIS Topic, human factor is largely irrelevant, aside from the Elo difference on the last Clan vs IS test, since that was measurable. For the mainstream, chassis on chassis comparison, the human element is not a factor, as you said.

[Bishop Steiner]

Jetfire, on 02 December 2014 - 09:58 AM, said:

The Firestarter SPL builds may be the most broken thing at the moment. Yet the light queue is not 40%... so despite how crazy good that is for a light... its not significantly altering the overall meta, just the light sector. Still needs to be fixed though.

well, considering even with the hit reg issues, the number of people who don't understand you have to always be moving, twisting and feathering JJS in a light (heck most people can't figure out how to spread damage, period, watching from their cockpits), instead of staring parked like a mouth breather, not a huge surprise. But have a feeling, with working hit reg, even half of those Light pilots in queue would give up. But let's be honest, anytime you have to rely on speed for armor, you are piloting a higher learning curve machine, and judging by all the laughable attempts to defend the TW as not OP, it's pretty obvious most people want to play in ezmode.

Call me nuts, I have no issue with Lights being "underrepresented" because tbh, it's not a style that will fit the masses. As long as those who are skilled in Lights can do their thing, without broken hit reg as a crutch, it's fine, IMO.