444 replies to this topic

[The Boz]

Bishop Steiner, on 30 November 2014 - 07:31 AM, said:

OP is "stupid" because it makes a point. Go look up "statistical outliers" and educate yourself.

You do not base findings, or make determinations on Outliers. But thanks for demonstrating your ignorance.
Also in regards to "stoopid"?. It's "alpha", not alfa. Learn to spell, please before attempting to claim intellectual superiority.

Fine. If you want to play the exclusion game...
Let's see how many total mechs each side has of each class:
Light: 6 : 3
Medium: 10 : 3
Heavy: 7 : 4
Assault: 7 : 2
If you want to exclude one quarter of all Heavy Clam mechs, let's also exclude the very best Heavy IS mechs, too! Want to exclude the Dire Whale because it's an outlier? Fine. Then compare the Peacedove to the Not-Banshee, the Not-Stalker, and the Not-Atlas. What's that? You don't want to compare Heavies with the TBR because it destroys your point? Well, OK, let's not include the TimberWolf. And let's also forget to include the Thunderbolt and Cataphract, while we're at it.

[Bishop Steiner]

Captain Stiffy, on 30 November 2014 - 03:32 AM, said:

I know that 1v1 some of the cheesiest possible completely tweaked out and maxed to the max IS builds still can't really hold their own against the more basic or derpy MAD/CAT or Daishi build and it's not for a lack of skill on my part. Pretty stupid.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand...how do those "cheeze" builds hold up against the other 10 Clan Chassis in game?

(83.3% of the Clan Mechs available are not Timbers or Dires. Also, unless it has support, I can kill a DW in pretty much any mech I can do at least 80 in, and yes, my "Mythical" (looking at you, Allistair Winter, lol) HBK-4G is one of them.

Satan n stuff, on 30 November 2014 - 06:10 AM, said:

You're delusional.

i tend to favor:

FupDup, on 30 November 2014 - 06:31 AM, said:

The Mist Lynx is literally a contender for the worst light and overall mech in the entire game, and the Mad Dog is slightly sub-par because of fragility issues. The Warhawk has its uses but it most certainly is not the best in its class.

Only cause people keep trying to use those facehugging SPlat builds. Mad Dog holds up fine if you shoot and scoot, and use it as a mid range support mech. But yes, it is clearly second fiddle to the TimberGod. As is every other mech in MWO.

[FupDup]

Bishop Steiner, on 30 November 2014 - 07:48 AM, said:

Only cause people keep trying to use those facehugging SPlat builds. Mad Dog holds up fine if you shoot and scoot, and use it as a mid range support mech. But yes, it is clearly second fiddle to the TimberGod. As is every other mech in MWO.

The closest to Splat that I used on my own Dawgs was minor Streak boating of 4 SSRM2 + 2 SSRM4; for the most part I did 6 LRM5 on mine.

Also, as with all robots I pass judgement on, I factor in their performance when used against me in addition to my own attempts at driving them. Even before I got my own Dawgs, I saw a whole lot of Dawgs of all loadout types get double-sidecored real fast...

It's not a bad robot by any means (I'd rate it somewhere around T3?), but it certainly isn't very tanky.

Edited by FupDup, 30 November 2014 - 07:58 AM.

[Karl Marlow]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 November 2014 - 02:06 PM, said:

This should be a fun debate, since I fully expect 50% of answers to be kneejerk based off the title without bothering to read the OP.

But I think it is a merited discussion, ATM. We keep hearing "DoA" QQ after EVERY new Clan Mech released, lately. Ice Ferret? Dorky looking, not enough guns, DoA. Mist Lynx? Too slow, Popeye arms, DoA. Hellbringer? Blackhole inspired CT, sucks in shots from ANY angle, DoA.

Mind you, I feel there to be a bit of Hyperbole, but it is what it is. As for Wave 1? Kit Fox? Middle of the pack Light? The Badder? No-Va? Suckoner? Peace Dove? ALL middle of the pack in their weight categories, or WORSE, even compared to IS mechs. The Mad Dog ain't bad...... but it is a poor man's Timberwolf.

Now IS Mechs are quirked, and you have Chaingun Dragons, Autoshotty Centys, Jackhammer HBKs, the Partyback just turned into a full blown rave, Dakka and PPC/Laser spam, etc.

While the Clans have: The Timber Wolf (admittedly, the god tier mech in MWO atm), Stormcrow (top tier Medium, though lack of JJs leave room for Shadowhawk, too) and DireWhales.

So...where do the Clan Mechs REALLY stack up vs the IS. If the Server was set Clan vs IS tomorrow, but the TWolf was unavailable, would the results STILL favor the clans? If not, is it the Clans that are stronger, or 1-3 chassis that need addressing? Are Clan Quirks the answer, or relaxing general Clan weapon nerfs, and focusing some specific nerfs on the offending chassis?

So....debate.

You mention the Timber wolf, the Stormcrow, and The Dire Whale as being the stand out Clan mechs. The same holds true in the Inner Sphere. Jenner/firestarters/ravens, Shadowhawk, Atlas. The pattern is the high tonnage mech in each wieght bracket is the stand out.

The exceptions are the Badder for Clans not really stacking up as a stand out Light mech. and for the Inner Sphere you have the Orion, while I personally like it, is not something that is considered the best Heavy Choice in the IS.

So you really need to compare the mechs by their counterparts.

Does an Atlas Stack up against a Dire Wolf?
Does a Timber Wolf outmatch an Orion?
Does a Shadowhawk stand a chance against a Stormcrow?
and Bad mechs are bad. IS wins lights.

By the same token you need to compare the other "underpreforming" clan mehs to their counterparts.

Myst Lynx vs Commando
Kit Fox vs Spider
Ice Ferret vs Vindicator
Nova vs Hunchback/Cent/Treb
Mad dog vs Dragon
Hellbringer vs Catapult
Summoner vs Jagermech/Cataphract
Man'o'war vs Awesome/Zeus
Warhawk vs Stalker

Who wins those matches? I think that at the final tally you will have stand outs in both clan and IS.

[STEF_]

MrZakalwe, on 30 November 2014 - 07:06 AM, said:

You miss the point- the same pilot will do better with a better mech and there are better and worse mechs in this game.

Remember the pre quirk awesome vs the pre nerf clans? Yeah between even similar pilots the result was one sided.

I can get the point, but actually I think the differences between IS and Clan are too way less than 2-3 months ago.
I would like to have seen IS 12vs 8-9 clan matches, even in CW coming. But PGi decided to go towards balancing the mechs, and for me it's ok, too.
Teamplay is the key.
I don't like comparison between mechs for this reason.
A good IS team vs a good Clan team it will be espectacular, and victory wouldn't be granted/certain at all.
We'll see soon.

[Dirkdaring]

This debate doesn't matter, as 'Clan' mechs in the game have been balanced due to dropping alongside IS mechs.

These are glorified IS mechs.

[The Boz]

Dirkdaring, on 30 November 2014 - 08:01 AM, said:

This debate doesn't matter, as 'Clan' mechs in the game have been balanced due to dropping alongside IS mechs.

These are glorified IS mechs.

...what?

[Bishop Steiner]

Rossario x Vampire, on 30 November 2014 - 06:50 AM, said:

Let's be objective than...

Ice Ferret mostly compareable with Blackjack, no other. Ventilator are too weak to be compared with anything he is just like Cicada, oversized underspeeded light mech. Blackjack actually are gr8 mech in jis class, only one that can provide some resistance to Clans.

Nova, untill Ghost Heat will be in game are unusable being underclassed just cause PGI are rejected ability of energy boating which is legit in TT. So the problem is - PGI it self.

Summoner - actually not that bad until some idiot decided to nerf C-ERPPC damage frome 15 to 10. Now it's underpowered.

Loz. A well piloted BJ will shred an Ice Feret every time. As does a well piloted Vindy (it just appears, that like the Hunchback, there are only 5-6 people who know how to pilot them). My 1AA does 110 kph, but has 6JJs worth of mobility, better hitboxes and count mount comparable or better weapons. (My 1AA packs an aLRM15, and 4 mediums, which I can wield with far less heat endurance issues. Very comparable to the best Ice Ferret loadouts.)

But since so few people can figure out how to drive the VND, I'll just stick to the BJ. BJ-1, with ac20 owns the iceferret. As does an ac5 BJ-1DC. And the Arrow.

Nova, even without GH is bad, because of the added heat to many clan lasers (the Nova-S for instance can hardly use it's stock 6 MPL now) but even if it could, it has the worst hitboxes in MWO. It's not that it's easy to CT core....it's that every hit box is super easy to hit from any angle, so you can literally pick what part you want to amputate.

And no, 5 more damage on the Snail Lightning Gun would not salvage the Summoner. It's lack of endo and fixed JJs deny it the tonnage to mount the heavy weapons and sufficient ammo it's limited hardpoints cry for, and it's limited hardpoints make boating smaller weapons impossible, or finding a happy blend of the two extremes.

Rossario x Vampire, on 30 November 2014 - 06:55 AM, said:

ROFL to this... even child knows that Hunchy with taken-off right torso is just an dead weight to his team.

Feel free to try and remove that RT, cupcake. (you picking on da wrong chassis, sugarplum!) THAT is the trick against a good HBK pilot. But I suppose the underhive,by it's nature would be lacking good pilots. (pompously sticks nose in the air)

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 30 November 2014 - 08:34 AM.

[The Boz]

Bishop Steiner, on 30 November 2014 - 08:08 AM, said:

(it just appears, that like the Hunchback, there are only 5-6 people who know how to pilot them)

So a pro player that is in the top 1% of the weight class pilots should be able to win against a random Clam?

[Bishop Steiner]

MrZakalwe, on 30 November 2014 - 07:06 AM, said:

You miss the point- the same pilot will do better with a better mech and there are better and worse mechs in this game.

Remember the pre quirk awesome vs the pre nerf clans? Yeah between even similar pilots the result was one sided.

Not 100% true. Pilot skill is also partially reflected in playstyle and other aspects. "Objectively", on paper, the BJ, for instance, IS better than my Vindicator. And the Cataphract-3D, is better than the Orion.

Yet in both instances, my stats are nearly DOUBLE, when using the "inferior" chassis. Because in both instances, the specific blend of hitboxes, agility, weapon hardpoints and their placement, SUIT me better. They fit how I play, what I do best so well, I can use them far better than the "better" chassis.

In most cases, the "better" chassis, really simply means the "easier one to learn to use well". It doesn't always mean better, when mastered, in the hands of every warrior. It may indeed be the better choice for 90% of players, and thus objectively, the better chassis. But it is an outright myth that is Player 1 does good in Mech A, he would do even better in Mech B.

[Bishop Steiner]

Michael Abt, on 30 November 2014 - 07:32 AM, said:

You never fought me so your words are forgiven. Maybe we drop on different teams one day, and then i'll show you what my signature is all about.

Looking for lunch, eh?

[mogs01gt]

in every weight class, a clan mech is the best mech. fs9 will most likely be nerfed.


the amount of fire power will always mean they are the mechs to beat.

[Burktross]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 November 2014 - 02:29 PM, said:

Ah you don't see the number of Clanners QQing about the rapid fire ac20! I drop with them, and it's honestly pretty delicious.

But if I am for some reason, "the last Hunchback", I'll carry that title gladly! And the last lil Vindicator! Not my fault most people don't know how to Medium...unless it's using a stormcrow with it's busted hitbox/move animation!

You are not alone, bruva. We shall be hunchbacks together.

[Bishop Steiner]

The Boz, on 30 November 2014 - 07:41 AM, said:

Fine. If you want to play the exclusion game...
Let's see how many total mechs each side has of each class:
Light: 6 : 3
Medium: 10 : 3
Heavy: 7 : 4
Assault: 7 : 2
If you want to exclude one quarter of all Heavy Clam mechs, let's also exclude the very best Heavy IS mechs, too! Want to exclude the Dire Whale because it's an outlier? Fine. Then compare the Peacedove to the Not-Banshee, the Not-Stalker, and the Not-Atlas. What's that? You don't want to compare Heavies with the TBR because it destroys your point? Well, OK, let's not include the TimberWolf. And let's also forget to include the Thunderbolt and Cataphract, while we're at it.

and again you miss the point.

If you remove an outlier from a control group, you get the clear picture. Thus, if IS vs the Mighty Clans are a heavy win for the Clans WITH the TW, then you run the same scenario without the TW and the IS noticeably wins, it tells you the outlier is the TW, and thus, the rest of the clans are not the problem, but the outlier, the TW.

But since you don't seem to be able to grasp how testing actually works, or you have a vested interest, maybe in protecting your EZMode button? Feel free to continue to not grasp the concept.

[The Boz]

The only place clans aren't The Best Ever Of All is Lights, and that's just because a 150+ kph Clam XL with the firepower of smaller and lighter Clam weapons would be HILARIOUSLY op.

[FupDup]

The Boz, on 30 November 2014 - 08:21 AM, said:

The only place clans aren't The Best Ever Of All is Lights, and that's just because a 150+ kph Clam XL with the firepower of smaller and lighter Clam weapons would be HILARIOUSLY op.

If only we got the Arctic Cheetah, or as I like to call it, the "Arctic Cheater" because of its razor-optimized base chassis (almost like the TBR of the light class).

[Bishop Steiner]

FupDup, on 30 November 2014 - 07:57 AM, said:

The closest to Splat that I used on my own Dawgs was minor Streak boating of 4 SSRM2 + 2 SSRM4; for the most part I did 6 LRM5 on mine.

Also, as with all robots I pass judgement on, I factor in their performance when used against me in addition to my own attempts at driving them. Even before I got my own Dawgs, I saw a whole lot of Dawgs of all loadout types get double-sidecored real fast...

It's not a bad robot by any means (I'd rate it somewhere around T3?), but it certainly isn't very tanky.

it's 60 tons, without broken hitboxes like the StormCrow (btw, no offense,but streak builds on the Dawg kind of suck), how tanky is it supposed to be? STs are a little large, yet somehow I maintain a 4/1 KDr in mine. Make no mistake, I won't cry if it gets some ST internal buffs, but I would say, at least in my hands, I find it a solid tier 2. But then I consider the TW a tier 0, because there is NOTHING currently in game, in it's class. Possibly the old pre JJ nerf Dragonslayer (IS ballistics and fantastic hitboxes). But even that I think would be a tough call.

[Bishop Steiner]

The Boz, on 30 November 2014 - 08:21 AM, said:

The only place clans aren't The Best Ever Of All is Lights, and that's just because a 150+ kph Clam XL with the firepower of smaller and lighter Clam weapons would be HILARIOUSLY op.

Again, myopic vision.

Stormcrow is arguably the best Medium, but due to htiboxes and JJs and IS Ballistics, the Shadowhawk makes a strong argument.

But the Nova and Ice Ferret? Inferior to the Shadowhawk, Griffin, Wolverine, Hunchback, Centurion and Blackjack, in total.

In Heavies you have the Timber God, but the Cataphract, Jagermech, WubBolt and K2 outperform the Mad Dog and (currently) Hellbringer.

In Assaults, the DW is way overrated, because unsupported it's a waddling target waiting to die. But for arguments sake, we'll give it to you. Post quirks, the Victor, Battlemaster, Stalker, Banshee and Atlas all totally outclass the Warhawk (And the Awesome is a better Missile/and Energy boat platform, overall, though Warhawk wins on being slightly more robust, usually), and the Victor, Banshee and Atlas can all give the Dire Wolf a run 1v1.

Thus, the Storm Crow, Timberwolf and Direwolf are exceptions to the general rule and thus "outliers" (even if the Stormcrow and Direwolf are arguable as being truly superior).

so 1 definite, 2 possibly, out of 11 are better than IS coutnerparts, whereas about 21-22 IS Mechs are superior or at worst, equal, to the remaining 8-10 Clan MEchs currently available.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 30 November 2014 - 08:31 AM.

[FupDup]

Bishop Steiner, on 30 November 2014 - 08:23 AM, said:

it's 60 tons, without broken hitboxes like the StormCrow (btw, no offense,but streak builds on the Dawg kind of suck), how tanky is it supposed to be? STs are a little large, yet somehow I maintain a 4/1 KDr in mine. Make no mistake, I won't cry if it gets some ST internal buffs, but I would say, at least in my hands, I find it a solid tier 2. But then I consider the TW a tier 0, because there is NOTHING currently in game, in it's class. Possibly the old pre JJ nerf Dragonslayer (IS ballistics and fantastic hitboxes). But even that I think would be a tough call.

Similar durability as one of the 55 ton Phoenix mediums would be nice. Heck, I can even manage to eat more dakka and pewpew with an IFR of all things, or at least get fairly close to doing so. It doesn't go down like a pre-quirk Awesome or original hitbox Dragon by any means, but it feels more like a low-end medium in terms of how much it can take, both from the receiving and the giving end of the exchange.

For improving it, I might lean more towards just extending the arm hitboxes to occupy the whole side panel that they're connected to, rather than relying purely on quirks. Mechs like the AWS have shown us that it takes pretty severe quirks to make up for big hitbox shapes.

[The Boz]

Bishop Steiner, on 30 November 2014 - 08:29 AM, said:

Again, myopic vision.

Stormcrow is arguably the best Medium, but due to htiboxes and JJs and IS Ballistics, the Shadowhawk makes a strong argument.

But the Nova and Ice Ferret? Inferior to the Shadowhawk, Griffin, Wolverine, Hunchback, Centurion and Blackjack, in total.

In Heavies you have the Timber God, but the Cataphract, Jagermech, WubBolt and K2 outperform the Mad Dog and (currently) Hellbringer.

In Assaults, the DW is way overrated, because unsupported it's a waddling target waiting to die. But for arguments sake, we'll give it to you. Post quirks, the Victor, Battlemaster, Stalker, Banshee and Atlas all totally outclass the Warhawk (And the Awesome is a better Missile/and Energy boat platform, overall, though Warhawk wins on being slightly more robust, usually), and the Victor, Banshee and Atlas can all give the Dire Wolf a run 1v1.

Thus, the Storm Crow, Timberwolf and Direwolf are exceptions to the general rule and thus "outliers" (even if the Stormcrow and Direwolf are arguable as being truly superior).

Ahem... You seem to have skipped this reply.

The Boz, on 30 November 2014 - 07:41 AM, said:

Fine. If you want to play the exclusion game...
Let's see how many total mechs each side has of each class:
Light: 6 : 3
Medium: 10 : 3
Heavy: 7 : 4
Assault: 7 : 2
If you want to exclude one quarter of all Heavy Clam mechs, let's also exclude the very best Heavy IS mechs, too! Want to exclude the Dire Whale because it's an outlier? Fine. Then compare the Peacedove to the Not-Banshee, the Not-Stalker, and the Not-Atlas. What's that? You don't want to compare Heavies with the TBR because it destroys your point? Well, OK, let's not include the TimberWolf. And let's also forget to include the Thunderbolt and Cataphract, while we're at it.