444 replies to this topic

[KuroNyra]

Nik Reaper, on 01 December 2014 - 06:59 AM, said:

Currently, Are (is there at least one) The Is Mechs, In Total, Superior To Clan Mechs?


Due to the Timbergod and Doom crow .... nop.

DId you even used theses mech?

I doubt it. They are dangerous yes, but noway near has invincible people might think.

But hey, listening to some people.
It's only the guys on the bad side of the barrel who know the mech. Not the pilot of the said mech.


I used Timber Wolf, I know how they work, and heck I'd prefer to face a Timber Wolf at the place of a Thunderbolt.

[Bishop Steiner]

Nik Reaper, on 01 December 2014 - 06:59 AM, said:

Currently, Are (is there at least one) The Is Mechs, In Total, Superior To Clan Mechs?


Due to the Timbergod and Doom crow .... nop.

And yet, the point would be that remove the TW (Stormcrow is good, but mostly "OP" due to broken hitreg/hitbox/movement animation) and suddenly you hit a buttload of IS mechs before you get to the next Clan mech, in the "rankings".

And yes, I say remove the TW because it is a KNOWN outlier, broken and OP as heck. You can't say that about any IS Mechs beside the Firestarter, which I would just as readily remove from the picture. Because they are known to be broken, and thus only pollute the experiment.

Remove both of those mechs, and the IS Lights STILL own the Clan Lights, even sans the FS9.

Good medium jocks can still take on Stormcrows with a good chance of success, especially in Shadowhawks (I prefer to Pancor Jackhammer them in my Hunchback, but I'm crazy like that), but I also see YLWs neuter them all day long because of things like PP-FLD and in the SHDs case, JJs. Remove the hitbox issue from the Crow, and it is a top tier medium, but I much like Assaults, I don't feel there is ONE top Medium on that tier (whereas the FS9 and TW clearly stand heads and shoulders above all other mechs).

No TW and suddenly, you have the CTF-3D, CPLT-K2, 5SS Wubbolts, Various Jagers that are better picks than the Mad Dog (60 tons, too wide of frontal hitboxes) or Hellbringer (blackhole CT, blazing hot, or light in firepower if built to run cooler, though it may reach tier 1, at worst 2, with CT today). Mostly due to preponderance of cool running, sustainable PP-FLD builds still beating Laser Vomit, except when it's TWolf laser vomit. And honestly I feel the Ilya and a well built ON1-VA are at least as good, on average as the other two Clan Mechs.

but eeven with the TW in the tiering would be:

-TimberWolf (tier 0)
- CTF-3D, CPLT-K2, 5SS Wubbolts, Jagers (Tier 1)
-Mad Dog, Hellbringer, Ilya Muromets (possibly other CTFs, some Orions)
- The rest

In assaults, sorry, DWs are not god tier. Tons of Firepower, but total turtles. Unsupported, 1v1, I have no fear of them in almost any other mech. Yes if I try to charge them face to face, they are a beast. But anything with a remote bit of mobility can flank them, and even most assaults can at least stay away from about half their firepower. Banshees, Atlases, Victors and others are just as good.

Ghost Badger, on 01 December 2014 - 07:40 AM, said:

If it was IS vs. Clan as of tomorrow, and you were seeing a full 12 v 12 in community warfare, and the Timby was unavailable...I'm guessing you'd see:

3 Direwolves with 2Gauss2PPC
3 Hellbringers with ECM and Laser Vomit
3 Stormcrows
3 Kitfoxes with 3-AMS/ECM

vs.

3 D-DC's
3 TDR-5SS
2 Shadowhawks and a Cicada 3M
1 Ember, 2 Raven 3L's

I think you'd see a lot of drop decks similar to this...and it'd end up being a pretty even fight. The insane pinpoint of the direwolves, blanketed by ECM for a number of first strikes is huge. The IS is going to need to get their brawling power in close. The Clans are going to need to make their distance count. Both teams will be using ECM to move effectively, and missiles, for the most part, aren't going to be what wins or loses this matchup.

Now build that using CW dropdecks, 240 tons for 4 mechs/ 4 drops.

And suddenly, the Clans are much more limited, as all tonnages are not represented, and most non DWs don't come close to matching their IS Assault counterpart options. Mind you, the Mediums could still run 4 Stormcrows, but I have a feeling whenever they fixing the hitbox animation issue, they SC will see a noted drop in effectiveness (though still be a tier 1).

KuroNyra, on 01 December 2014 - 07:50 AM, said:

DId you even used theses mech?

I doubt it. They are dangerous yes, but noway near has invincible people might think.

But hey, listening to some people.
It's only the guys on the bad side of the barrel who know the mech. Not the pilot of the said mech.


I used Timber Wolf, I know how they work, and heck I'd prefer to face a Timber Wolf at the place of a Thunderbolt.

and yet, judging by most comments, you are in the minority on that my friend. The WubWolf is not as cool running as the Thud, but it does outdamage, outrange and outmaneuver it.

[Nik Reaper]

@Bishop Steiner

Right, but while one could say that with some more tweeks and quirks some Is mechs could do well agains non Twolfs , what is the point of that idea, are they going to remove the Twolf , limit it's usage to 1 per team, will they make it's torso twist only 10 degree each way? It seems it's here to stay so why ignore it? Also while as you say a shadowhawk can sometimes take a stormcrow and win, why is it that the top players still use crow instead of hawks?

But hey, if we could force the Twolfs and crows out , yes I guess you could say they are somewhat close, mostly due to bad weapon locations and hitboxes on clans rather then firepower, mobility and tanking potencial.

Also yes I'm using mastered stromcrows , the laser vomit and the mobile gauss + erml are so.... just so.... and using 2 basiced Twolfs and the 2erppc+gauss is my sniping dream even if the effective range at wich I can hit is reduced and the srm4+ermpl / srm6+erml builds still wreck brawling like a big assault + I still didn't make a laser vomit one but as the stormcrow does it well, the jumping Twolf with even more laser can't do worse I figure... Also to state it here, I'm hardly top player material and still do well with them, and I watch streams to see just how much better I could do if I put in the time and effort on it.

Edited by Nik Reaper, 01 December 2014 - 08:29 AM.

[AlmightyAeng]

Bishop Steiner, on 01 December 2014 - 07:59 AM, said:

Now build that using CW dropdecks, 240 tons for 4 mechs/ 4 drops.

IS-1: 235 tons
Atlas D-DC: 100 tons
Thunderwub: 65 tons
Raven-3L: 35 tons
Ember: 35 tons

IS-2: 235 tons
3x Thunderwubs: 195 tons
Cicada 3M: 40 tons

IS-3: 240 tons
Atlas D-DC: 100
2x Shadowhawk: 110 tons
Spider 5D: 30 tons

Clan-1: 225
Direwolf: 100 tons
Hellbringer: 65 tons
2x Kitfox: 60 tons

Clan-2: 240
2x Hellbringers: 130 tons
2x Stormcrow: 110 tons

Clan-3: 240 tons
Direwolf: 100 tons
2x Stormcrow: 110 tons
Kitfox: 30 tons

Kinda like that, Bishop? Note that the first two leave room to upgrade to a Timby instead...but in the scenario you laid out they're out. And if the Firestarter is broken, I guess switch out those Embers in the IS for Raven 3L's.

Edited by Ghost Badger, 01 December 2014 - 08:29 AM.

[KuroNyra]

Bishop Steiner, on 01 December 2014 - 07:59 AM, said:

and yet, judging by most comments, you are in the minority on that my friend. The WubWolf is not as cool running as the Thud, but it does outdamage, outrange and outmaneuver it.

Outdamage, probably. Outrange, considering the maps can you really say it's an advantage? Outmaneuver... Yeah, but when he can't see the Thunderbolt, he can't attack him. And when he can see him.. Both can attack eachother. And the Thunderbolt will have more PP damage in a shorter time

[Bishop Steiner]

Nik Reaper, on 01 December 2014 - 08:12 AM, said:

@Bishop Steiner

Right, but while one could say that with some more tweeks and quirks some Is mechs could do well agains non Twolfs , what is the point of that idea, are they going to remove the Twolf , limit it's usage to 1 per team, will they make it's torso twist only 10 degree each way? It seems it's here to stay so why ignore it? Also while as you say a shadowhawk can sometimes take a stormcrow and win, why is it that the top players still use crow instead of hawks?

But hey, if we could force the Twolfs and crows out , yes I guess you could say they are somewhat close, mostly due to bad weapon locations and hitboxes on clans rather then firepower, mobility and tanking potencial.

Also yes I'm using mastered stromcrows , the laser vomit and the mobile gauss + erml are so.... just so.... and using 2 basiced Twolfs and the 2erppc+gauss is my sniping dream even if the effective range at wich I can hit is reduced and the srm4+ermpl / srm6+erml builds still wreck brawling like a big assault + I still didn't make a laser vomit one but as the stormcrow does it well, the jumping Twolf with even more laser can't do worse I figure...

the point would be instead of global faction nerfs (which nerfing the weapons due. It might make a Twolf less effective but it utterly neuters a Summoner or Nova, already on the verge of laughably bad) is Identify the outliers, and do focused balance passes on them. If the TW is as truly out of whack as even the Comp teams players running it claim they are, then YES; the TW does need some negative quirks or tweaks to bring it closer to being in line with the other mechs. While not something most TW pilots want to hear, (who wants to lose their ezmode, after all?) it's just basic and smart game balance.

And all the naysayers who want to point to the disastrous negative quirk fiasco the Victor became under Paul: Paul isn't in charge of that anymore. Half the negative quirks added for that didn't even address it's actual issues, til they finally globally nerfed JJs (something I gave multiple alternative solutions for which would not have been so over the top).

There is no reason lopping 10% or so off it's twist range and speed would "ruin" the mech, for instance. It would lose a small amount of agility (something that could be further closed as a gap by increasing the agility slightly on the mad dog, and massively on the Summoner, as a tier 5 mech). It would still outgun and outrun and outarmor all the rest. No reason it needs to be as nimble, also.

Basic balance theory 101, you give, you take. Currently, the TW is all "give, give, give" even after the "oh so horrible" locked JJ nerf.

Ghost Badger, on 01 December 2014 - 08:27 AM, said:

IS-1: 235 tons
Atlas D-DC: 100 tons
Thunderwub: 65 tons
Raven-3L: 35 tons
Ember: 35 tons

IS-2: 235 tons
3x Thunderwubs: 195 tons
Cicada 3M: 40 tons

IS-3: 240 tons
Atlas D-DC: 100
2x Shadowhawk: 110 tons
Spider 5D: 30 tons

Clan-1: 225
Direwolf: 100 tons
Hellbringer: 65 tons
2x Kitfox: 60 tons

Clan-2: 240
2x Hellbringers: 130 tons
2x Stormcrow: 110 tons

Clan-3: 240 tons
Direwolf: 100 tons
2x Stormcrow: 110 tons
Kitfox: 30 tons

Kinda like that, Bishop? Note that the first two leave room to upgrade to a Timby instead...but in the scenario you laid out they're out. And if the Firestarter is broken, I guess switch out those Embers in the IS for Raven 3L's.

well, what I mean is each CW player according to what was posted will be in dropship mode, with each of the 12 players per team having like 240 tons to play with. SO a person has to have what, 4 mechs? so an Atlas or DW means he only has 140 tons for the other 3. Etc.

[AlmightyAeng]

Bishop Steiner, on 01 December 2014 - 08:36 AM, said:

well, what I mean is each CW player according to what was posted will be in dropship mode, with each of the 12 players per team having like 240 tons to play with. SO a person has to have what, 4 mechs? so an Atlas or DW means he only has 140 tons for the other 3. Etc.

True, but there's NO WAY 12-mans aren't going to set up their decks to work together.

What I'm really interested in? Will 3/3/3/3 apply at ALL to dropship mode? How is that going to be regulated? If at all (I hope not).

[Bishop Steiner]

KuroNyra, on 01 December 2014 - 08:28 AM, said:

Outdamage, probably. Outrange, considering the maps can you really say it's an advantage? Outmaneuver... Yeah, but when he can't see the Thunderbolt, he can't attack him. And when he can see him.. Both can attack eachother. And the Thunderbolt will have more PP damage in a shorter time

On most maps, I can find lots of good engagement point past 500 meters....especially with the TWs mobility, it gets to pick the battlefield. You can't just wish away a 220 meter engagement range advantage, unless you drop every match in HPG or Crimson and go hide in the tunnel.

1-2 volleys is all the TW needs to remove a side. 1 volley puts you internal. One full volley from the Thud, most TWs still got 20 pts armor on the ST.

we can theorycraft all you want,. but the TW has far less limitations than the THUD. And the pursuit and evade speed to cool off if needed.

Ghost Badger, on 01 December 2014 - 08:38 AM, said:

True, but there's NO WAY 12-mans aren't going to set up their decks to work together.

What I'm really interested in? Will 3/3/3/3 apply at ALL to dropship mode? How is that going to be regulated? If at all (I hope not).

good questions.

If they do, well, building those dropdecks will be a hassle, for casuals, that is for sure (and the MM might have a stroke and die) . If they don't I see drop decks of 12 atlases/direwoves in the first 1-2 waves. Be a very ugly new meta, IMO. Maybe the next CW update from Paul will tell us more. It's only what...3 weeks away? (Phase 1, not the update, lol)

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 01 December 2014 - 08:46 AM.

[Jman5]

I can't wait to see how things turn out when we finally get our hands on community warfare. I imagine many players will rage quit out of it, but it will be interesting nonetheless.

[AlmightyAeng]

Bishop Steiner, on 01 December 2014 - 08:43 AM, said:

If they do, well, building those dropdecks will be a hassle, for casuals, that is for sure (and the MM might have a stroke and die) . If they don't I see drop decks of 12 atlases/direwoves in the first 1-2 waves. Be a very ugly new meta, IMO. Maybe the next CW update from Paul will tell us more. It's only what...3 weeks away? (Phase 1, not the update, lol)

Exactly. If it's not regulated, then you'll see teams coordinating 'heavy' drops on the respawn. If it IS regulated...yeah...the MM is going to have a heart-attack...and/or they'll need to lengthen time between respawns to give teams time to actually choose mechs that are inside whatever limits they create.

HEADACHE either way.

Edited by Ghost Badger, 01 December 2014 - 08:54 AM.

[Ultimax]

Ghost Badger, on 01 December 2014 - 08:53 AM, said:

Exactly. If it's not regulated, then you'll see teams coordinating 'heavy' drops on the respawn. If it IS regulated...yeah...the MM is going to have a heart-attack...and/or they'll need to lengthen time between respawns to give teams time to actually choose mechs that are inside whatever limits they create.

HEADACHE either way.

It's already been stated that there will be no MM in CW, and has been dubbed "hardcore" mode.

[Brody319]

I don't see IS using Atlases that much. Stalkers seem like a better choice, easy to spread damage, just as many missile hardpoints or more, less dependent on Ammo, and better hardpoint positions. plus you save 15 tons that you could use to bring a better medium or bigger light. Plus the Stalkers got the Misery, which is arguably better than any Atlas. The only Atlas people are going to bring is a D-DC and in a group drop you are probably better off bringing an escort mech and have them cover you with it.

Plus it depends on the maps. if they are closed in and got choke points the brawler atlas will excel, but if they are open and have plenty of space then the stalker will be better because it can snipe better.

[LordMelvin]

Nik Reaper, on 01 December 2014 - 06:47 AM, said:

Keep in mind that when talking ballance take it as one side are the Lords and the other SJR , can you say you can just like that duel and win agains any of there top pilots in what ever you bring? ( or anything for that matter )

Could I win against a top pilot? Hell no. I'm very much a middle of the road player. I could get cored out by a legless Locust piloted by a pro.

Could the build win against top pilots? Probably not. It's not a very brawley build, and definitely not meta. The HBR also suffers from low torso twist speed and angle. With a 7x CERML or 5x ERML 2x CLPL build and fixed hitboxes it would probably be competitive, although mostly as a heavy with ECM.

All builds require the pilot to know how and when to use them and what the limitations of the mech in question are. Meta builds are no exception, although I would argue the skill necessary to operate them is considerably lower than the skill needed to discover them.

[Bishop Steiner]

Brody319, on 01 December 2014 - 09:00 AM, said:

I don't see IS using Atlases that much. Stalkers seem like a better choice, easy to spread damage, just as many missile hardpoints or more, less dependent on Ammo, and better hardpoint positions. plus you save 15 tons that you could use to bring a better medium or bigger light. Plus the Stalkers got the Misery, which is arguably better than any Atlas. The only Atlas people are going to bring is a D-DC and in a group drop you are probably better off bringing an escort mech and have them cover you with it.

Plus it depends on the maps. if they are closed in and got choke points the brawler atlas will excel, but if they are open and have plenty of space then the stalker will be better because it can snipe better.

ECM is still an effective force multiplier. A mix of 6 support and 6 brawler DDC under ECM cover will face roll most opponents.

[AlmightyAeng]

Ultimatum X, on 01 December 2014 - 08:59 AM, said:

It's already been stated that there will be no MM in CW, and has been dubbed "hardcore" mode.

I must have missed that statement...and I'm not ruling out a retraction of that if people complain that CW is too hard.

[Bishop Steiner]

Jman5, on 01 December 2014 - 08:50 AM, said:

I can't wait to see how things turn out when we finally get our hands on community warfare. I imagine many players will rage quit out of it, but it will be interesting nonetheless.

In this community, PGI could give every player a bag with $100,000 Canadian dollars in it, and people would ragequit because it wasn't 100k in USD or Euros. So is that really saying much?

(Just reference all the whining over the "customer appreciation thank yous" that PGI gave us. "why didn't I get ALL of them?!?!?", "But I am a clanner and the FREE MECHS mess up my pretty mechbay!!!",etc.)

Gaming communities, at least the vocal portion, generally seem to be largely populated with low self esteemed, entitled ingrates.

[AlmightyAeng]

Brody319, on 01 December 2014 - 09:00 AM, said:

Plus it depends on the maps. if they are closed in and got choke points the brawler atlas will excel, but if they are open and have plenty of space then the stalker will be better because it can snipe better.

You shouldn't be in the open in any assault. The stalker DOES tank better...you bring a D-DC to provide ECM to get brawlers into range for a flanking maneuver, and as a shock-troop CT-opener in conjunction with that...or a closer following just behind your tanky Stalker that opened the CT for him.

[Brody319]

Bishop Steiner, on 01 December 2014 - 09:06 AM, said:

ECM is still an effective force multiplier. A mix of 6 support and 6 brawler DDC under ECM cover will face roll most opponents.

I think a well coordinated team with ECM support lights would fair better than a team who limits themselves to an all ECM team. You greatly reduce your usable mech pool. I think we can't judge what will and wont be good in CW till we play it, the King Crab is also dropping the same day. Its a much more objective focused game with maps specifically designed for the objectives. up till this point we have had Death match maps with objectives forced onto them.

Ghost Badger, on 01 December 2014 - 09:11 AM, said:

You shouldn't be in the open in any assault. The stalker DOES tank better...you bring a D-DC to provide ECM to get brawlers into range for a flanking maneuver, and as a shock-troop CT-opener in conjunction with that...or a closer following just behind your tanky Stalker that opened the CT for him.

My point was if the maps are big enough sniper Stalkers would be better than an Atlas. It depends on the Map and how its handled. Its not about being in the open, but the range. a brawler atlas is going to suffer on Alpine peaks, but do much better on river city.

Edited by Brody319, 01 December 2014 - 09:15 AM.

[AlmightyAeng]

Bishop Steiner, on 01 December 2014 - 09:06 AM, said:

ECM is still an effective force multiplier. A mix of 6 support and 6 brawler DDC under ECM cover will face roll most opponents.

And much more so than with 6 ECM lights.

[H I A S]

Lightfoot, on 30 November 2014 - 11:54 PM, said:

Worst mechs...

5. Any Mech with one Gauss Rifle

Lmao