70 replies to this topic

[Shaio]

The AC 2 suffers from two major flaws that limit its potential as a weapon system, Heat and ammo/ton. The AC 2 takes up way to much weight to make it a viable secondary weapon given its low damage output and when fired rapidly in groups of 2 or more the weapon system will rapidly overheat the Mech preventing the use of other weapon systems and that just dose not feel right.

Shaio, on 30 November 2014 - 07:12 AM, said:

With the steep heat penalty and limited ammo I do not see this weapon system being anything more then a novelty on the battlefield.

After some review on the forms and some extended testing in the Dragon-5N I have found that 2 AC2's are viable when pared with the ER Large lasers. I imagine this may apply the AC2/AC5 combo as well. Running any more then two AC2 produces little return for the weight invested.

This said I still believe that a "small" reduction in the staggered fire heat generation and slight increase in ammo/ton would bring this weapon system inline with the other weapon systems in the game.

Edited by Shaio, 30 November 2014 - 10:59 AM.

[The Boz]

Ghost heat at 4, -33% heat and +50% ammo per ton would be required to bring this weapon back.

[Mudhutwarrior]

Agreed, just for kicks I will boat them in chain fire for harassment purposes. Don't count on earning anything though.

[Shaio]

Mudhutwarrior, on 30 November 2014 - 07:17 AM, said:

Agreed, just for kicks I will boat them in chain fire for harassment purposes. Don't count on earning anything though.

Chain fire actually limits the ROF on the AC2 I found that I must assign each AC2 to it's own weapon group and offset the fire of each AC2 to reach the weapon's max fire rate.

[Sandpit]

Good god y'all! Ac2! Huh! What are they good for?

Sorry thread title made me do it.

I use them for keeping enemy heads down at range. Those pesky spotters have a hard time spotting when they can't stand there and spot

[Mudhutwarrior]

Shaio, on 30 November 2014 - 07:29 AM, said:

Chain fire actually limits the ROF on the AC2 I found that I must assign each AC2 to it's own weapon group and offset the fire of each AC2 to reach the weapon's max fire rate.

Try running chain fire and after the off cycle kick it of. It will stagger the fire rate doing close to the same thing. Not claiming to know what I am talking about so don't tell me how stupid it is. Just playing anyways.

[Ph30nix]

its good in the one varient of the dragon but its a suppression weapon at best and at most a support weapon. If an enemy starts firing back at you then your doing to die horribly. If they ignore you (which happens often enough) then you can decimate people.

[ollo]

The Boz, on 30 November 2014 - 07:17 AM, said:

Ghost heat at 4, -33% heat and +50% ammo per ton would be required to bring this weapon back.

scrap +50% ammo, but give it back the 0.5s cooldown.

[Lazerblazer]

I use them on my JM6-A. LRM is it's main weapon but I use them to deter enemies that get too close. It doesn't do much damage. What I'm hoping it does is that it rattles the cockpit enough to throw the enemy's aim off and gives me time to retreat or fire my other weapons. I haven't played enough to be sure but sometimes it seems to confuse or scare the enemy away.

[Cyborne Elemental]

Dump the staggerfire Ghost heat.
Leave 4+ with normal ghost heat multiplier.
reduce heat to "0.75" or "0.80" down from "1.0"
Decrease cooldown to 0.7 (is 0.77) (was 0.66?)

[crustydog]

I used them on chain fire to great effect on a Jager with a pair of large lasers. It's nice to fire down range, and not be concerned about ammo use - and many assaults simply ignore the fire for a while - so the points do add up. It's simply that you are not the priority target for the other team.

Not to mention fun - they are fun to use. Bang Bang Bang Bang - great stuff.

That mech may have not been the greatest mech killer ever - but it did score at a steady rate and mastered without any problems. Heat control was excellent, and ammo was plentiful. Just move and shoot the whole match -

[Escef]

I run 3 on my BLR-1D, does ok. The range means you're doing full damage out to much farther than you would for other weapon systems, so you can rack up a lot of damage without even realizing it.

[Bishop Steiner]

Shaio, on 30 November 2014 - 07:12 AM, said:

The AC 2 suffers from two major flaws that limit its potential as a weapon system, Heat and ammo/ton. The AC 2 takes up way to much weight to make it a viable secondary weapon given its low damage output and when fired rapidly in groups of 2 or more the weapon system will rapidly overheat the Mech preventing the use of other weapon systems and that just dose not feel right.

With the steep heat penalty and limited ammo I do not see this weapon system being anything more then a novelty on the battlefield.

chipping off paint real fast like?

[Mavairo]

The AC2 is good for marking out to everyone how terrible of a mech builder you are if you have one.

And that was before ghost heat.

[Mudhutwarrior]

[Helsbane]

AC2s are really only good if you use 3 or more, and can bring enough ammo to make them worth the tonnage. The AC2 was rarely seen back before the Jager was released, as only a couple of units could take enough of them to make them matter. Then, the Jager took the field and the DD suddenly turned up with six of them, all fired by a macro for a buzzsaw like RoF that sounded like an MG42. This literal hail of rounds caused a lot of tears to flow on the forums, and eventually garnered the AC2 a place on the Ghost Heat scale. Now if you fired a multitude of AC2s using a macro, you'd melt like a birthday candle in a pottery kiln.

Ironically, the rapid fire hail of bullets effect would rise from the ashes, but this time in the hands of the Clans. Each of their UACs fires in the same manner the multiple AC2 racks used to, unleashing a stream of rounds onto their hapless target. So, where is the river of crocodile tears this time? Why are Clans allowed to bring ACs that rapid fire, for far less tonnage mind you, while IS units that drag 3 or more small bore ACs to achieve the same effect effected by Ghost Heat? It's the same effect, so why the penalty? IS units that can bring 3 or more AC2s are already sacrificing huge amounts of tonnage for the weapons and ammo, so why are they saddled with Ghost Heat if the Clans can bring up to 6 CUAC5s without penalty? The effect down range is the same, the mechanics of using them is the same (long amounts of face on target time for maximum effect), so can we get rid of the Ghost Heat on IS AC2s now?

[Mudhutwarrior]

Helsbane, on 30 November 2014 - 09:55 AM, said:

AC2s are really only good if you use 3 or more, and can bring enough ammo to make them worth the tonnage. The AC2 was rarely seen back before the Jager was released, as only a couple of units could take enough of them to make them matter. Then, the Jager took the field and the DD suddenly turned up with six of them, all fired by a macro for a buzzsaw like RoF that sounded like an MG42. This literal hail of rounds caused a lot of tears to flow on the forums, and eventually garnered the AC2 a place on the Ghost Heat scale. Now if you fired a multitude of AC2s using a macro, you'd melt like a birthday candle in a pottery kiln.

Ironically, the rapid fire hail of bullets effect would rise from the ashes, but this time in the hands of the Clans. Each of their UACs fires in the same manner the multiple AC2 racks used to, unleashing a stream of rounds onto their hapless target. So, where is the river of crocodile tears this time? Why are Clans allowed to bring ACs that rapid fire, for far less tonnage mind you, while IS units that drag 3 or more small bore ACs to achieve the same effect effected by Ghost Heat? It's the same effect, so why the penalty? IS units that can bring 3 or more AC2s are already sacrificing huge amounts of tonnage for the weapons and ammo, so why are they saddled with Ghost Heat if the Clans can bring up to 6 CUAC5s without penalty? The effect down range is the same, the mechanics of using them is the same (long amounts of face on target time for maximum effect), so can we get rid of the Ghost Heat on IS AC2s now?

Again like most everything else here the issue isn't the weapon but those who feel the need to cheat. As in Macros.

Sure they are allowed but should not be in the sense of fair play. That's the issue. If they had rather outlawed macros and developed the algo to dectect such use it would be put to rest.

PGI took the easy path and we paid for it.

Sorry but those who synch drop and or use macros are the lousy players who need crutches. Never used them and will never need to.

[Navy Sixes]

ollo, on 30 November 2014 - 07:45 AM, said:

scrap +50% ammo, but give it back the 0.5s cooldown.

Like LRMs, the AC/2 suffers from a very fine line between 'balanced' and 'OP.' As I remember it, the biggest problem with the half-second cool down was that good players could keep a constant stream of fire on targets at distance, and enjoyed almost entirely the ridiculous DPS the system provided (Do the math: 2x AC/2 would spit out 8dps, but without 'PP' accuracy. You had to be pretty good at leading a moving, twisting, down-range target to get it all on the same panel!) . While certainly not the best, I got pretty handy with a pair of them on my BJ-1, and with three on a SHD-2H, what larks!

It was an awesome suppression system, which was the root of most of the QQ regarding the AC/2. I'm not sure what the game looks like now (haven't played in months) but back then, the meta was gauss/PPC combos that could put +30 dmg on a pixel at range, providing someone wasn't laying a steady stream of smoke n' shake into the shooter's field-of-vision. In that case, those big-FLD builds had to either stand out in their favorite duck-blind, trying to hit something while their cockpit shook like an earthquake and the incoming damage mounted up (8 DPS/second vs. a 'Phract's ST armor...) or twist and take cover while the enemy moved up. Good AC/2 gunners were sniper-trolls, and no one wanted that.

All the QQ, plus the introduction of the Banshee, with it's multiple, high ballistic slots and the tonnage to boat AC/2s, along with the ammo and heat sinks to run them without trade-offs, brought down the nerf-bat. Brought it down way too hard, I think.

This is why you probably never see a Banshee AC/2 boat. It's also why smaller mechs designed around multiple ballistic slots are handicapped. Every ballistic smaller than the AC/5 is pretty much junk: MG's are worthless unless you can take 4+, at which point you're probably better off with a pair of MLs. AC/2 is now too heavy and too hot to make worthwhile.

I pretty much hung up my spurs after that. I feel like the pre-nerf AC/2 was exactly the kind of weapon MW:O should encourage: difficult in the hands of the novice, lethal in the hands of good pilots. It challenged, but in turn it rewarded good play. It felt like the smaller mechs got the shaft (yet again) to make way for the heavy/assault crowd, both in terms of all the QQ from the big-FLD crowd, and also in the way the system was hamstrung to discourage it's use on big mechs with multiple high-mounted ballistic slots, like the Banshee.

I hear they quirked the BJ-1 to make the AC/2s more effective. I was thinking of taking mine out for a spin, see how it stacks up to the good-ol'-days. Anyone else tried 'em out?

It'd be nice to see the AC/2 become a valid option to consider for medium mechs again. What larks!

Edited by Tycho von Gagern, 30 November 2014 - 10:26 AM.

[Soul Tribunal]

Shaio, on 30 November 2014 - 07:12 AM, said:

The AC 2 suffers from two major flaws that limit its potential as a weapon system, Heat and ammo/ton. The AC 2 takes up way to much weight to make it a viable secondary weapon given its low damage output and when fired rapidly in groups of 2 or more the weapon system will rapidly overheat the Mech preventing the use of other weapon systems and that just dose not feel right.

With the steep heat penalty and limited ammo I do not see this weapon system being anything more then a novelty on the battlefield.

The Key to using the AC2, is to not be the target everyone is focusing on. It is not designed to win a staring contest with, well anything really.
However, given the Quirks on certain Dragons and Blackjacks, you can utterly use this weapon in the fire support role.
Find someone whom is not paying attention to you and then Hold down the trigger. On the Blackjack especially since it is a ridge poking type mech you will utterly stun lock them while they figure out what is shooting at them.
Yes, AMmo can be an issue, but the AC2 in the right hands with a quirked mech is deadly.
As i stated in the quirk thread, I am 30-40% more combat effective in my BlackJacks then I was before they made the ROF what it is today.

This weapon, still has its place.

-ST

[-Halcyon-]

Sandpit, on 30 November 2014 - 07:36 AM, said:

Good god y'all! Ac2! Huh! What are they good for?

Absolutely nuthin'.