70 replies to this topic

[Blackhound]

Yeah, I have to say I just wont touch the AC2... But the LBX2 on the other hand goes great paired with Large Lasers on Lights, if you can fit it. The extra crit bonus gets in all the cracks and tears things apart.

[DjPush]

The AC2 is a great supression weapon. It may not do a ton of damage but it will make pilots hesitate or torso twist in a push. That means they aren't firing on your team mates and can stop the enemies momentum.

[Sandpit]

DjPush, on 30 November 2014 - 11:12 AM, said:

The AC2 is a great supression weapon. It may not do a ton of damage but it will make pilots hesitate or torso twist in a push. That means they aren't firing on your team mates and can stop the enemies momentum.

^this

[Escef]

DjPush, on 30 November 2014 - 11:12 AM, said:

The AC2 is a great supression weapon. It may not do a ton of damage but it will make pilots hesitate or torso twist in a push. That means they aren't firing on your team mates and can stop the enemies momentum.

And up close it can help keep the pressure on. I've run AC2, LL, 3xSSRM2 on my SHD-2H(P) since the first game I used it, and it just works.

[Y E O N N E]

You know what else makes a great suppression weapon and still does a bunch of damage?

The AC/5. Especially on the BJ-1DC and JM6-S.

Even better?

Gauss rifle. Nobody wants to move up when a set of Gauss rifles are trained along the path they have to take.

[Sandpit]

Yeonne Greene, on 30 November 2014 - 11:21 AM, said:

You know what else makes a great suppression weapon and still does a bunch of damage?

The AC/5. Especially on the BJ-1DC and JM6-S.

Even better?

Gauss rifle. Nobody wants to move up when a set of Gauss rifles are trained along the path they have to take.

Are you suggesting AC2s should be on par with AC5s or multiple gauss equipped mechs focusing fire?

[Y E O N N E]

I'm saying that the AC/2 should exceed the DPS on the AC/5 (and, by extension, a Gauss Rifle) because that's the only thing that's really going to make it worth bringing.

The AC/2 has the same problem pulse lasers had versus regular lasers. They weighed more and had stiffer heat penalties for marginal benefits. They fixed this by letting pulse lasers have higher DPS than regular lasers (a Small Pulse will wreck a Medium Laser on DPS, now, using base stats alone) and allowing them less heat. Now you see wubs as often as you see pews, because the trade-off is worth it.

They have to do something similar for the AC/2. Let it continue to run hot, but also let it deal out more damage per second to compensate for the laughably low impulse damage and high weight requirements.

That, or leave it where it is but raise the ghost heat requirements.

[Felicitatem Parco]

The Ammo/Ton argument is complete B.S. It carries the exact same 150 Damage/Ton of ammo as all other Autocannons. Please stop focusing on something that's not a problem.

The problem is heat. AC/2s generate 0.5 Heat / Damage, and that is too high for a weapon that is supposed to be used for long durations at a time (a.k.a. "a DPS Weapon). Also, the Ghost Heat Scale limits AC/2 to firing just 3 on any Mech, because if you fire 4 at a time, then you suffer unfair heat penalties.

The Stagger-Fire-Prevention scheme of the Ghost Heat setup is now spiritually invalid, since it was conceived prior to Clan Ultra Autocannons. CUACs generate constant streams of bullets like a chain-fired AC/2 setup, therefore it is now time to remove the stagger-fire-prevention scheme and raise the Ghost Heat limit to 4.

In the end, they need a Heat of .4->.45, a GH limit of 4, and removal of the chain-fire-prevention mechanism.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 30 November 2014 - 08:09 PM.

[Sandpit]

Yeonne Greene, on 30 November 2014 - 11:29 AM, said:

I'm saying that the AC/2 should exceed the DPS on the AC/5 (and, by extension, a Gauss Rifle) because that's the only thing that's really going to make it worth bringing.

The AC/2 has the same problem pulse lasers had versus regular lasers. They weighed more and had stiffer heat penalties for marginal benefits. They fixed this by letting pulse lasers have higher DPS than regular lasers (a Small Pulse will wreck a Medium Laser on DPS, now, using base stats alone) and allowing them less heat. Now you see wubs as often as you see pews, because the trade-off is worth it.

They have to do something similar for the AC/2. Let it continue to run hot, but also let it deal out more damage per second to compensate for the laughably low impulse damage and high weight requirements.

That, or leave it where it is but raise the ghost heat requirements.

so you're suggesting that the AC2 should out damage a Gauss rifle?

[Escef]

Sandpit, on 30 November 2014 - 11:50 AM, said:

so you're suggesting that the AC2 should out damage a Gauss rifle?

DPS/ton it already does.

[Sandpit]

Escef, on 30 November 2014 - 11:57 AM, said:

DPS/ton it already does.

I'm just trying to understand if they are suggesting that AC2's should be buffed so that they outperform Gauss rifles en masse

[Y E O N N E]

Sandpit, on 30 November 2014 - 11:50 AM, said:

so you're suggesting that the AC2 should out damage a Gauss rifle?

Yes, over time.

It won't even upset the balance, because a smart Gauss user will fire and take cover.

The top end of this game revolves around doing damage for minimum exposure. A high DPS AC/2 doesn't really turn that on its head, but it does make it harder to simply peek and shoot if somebody has said AC/2s trained on where the Gauss is trying to peek from.

[Escef]

Yeonne Greene, on 30 November 2014 - 01:06 PM, said:

Yes, over time.

It won't even upset the balance, because a smart Gauss user will fire and take cover.

The top end of this game revolves around doing damage for minimum exposure. A high DPS AC/2 doesn't really turn that on its head, but it does make it harder to simply peek and shoot if somebody has said AC/2s trained on where the Gauss is trying to peek from.

2xAC2=5.56 DPS
1xGauss=3.16 DPS

AC2s ALREADY out-DPS the Gauss. Hell, a BLR-1D with 3xAC2 will out DPS a GaussJager. A 2xGauss/2xERPPC Dire Wolf compared to a 3xAC2/5xML BLR-1D? Max DPS favors the BLR slightly. Yes, the Dire has more range overall, better pinpoint, more armor, and better cooling. Meanwhile, that BLR is running a 375XL and can actually maneuver better than a paraplegic moose in a vat of molasses (comes with being 15 tons lighter and mounting a big engine).

Overall, AC2s are in an ok place and have been for some time.

Clan side, I just don't like the UAC2. Haven't tried the LB2X, and frankly am not interested in it.

[Sandpit]

Yeonne Greene, on 30 November 2014 - 01:06 PM, said:

Yes, over time.

It won't even upset the balance, because a smart Gauss user will fire and take cover.

The top end of this game revolves around doing damage for minimum exposure. A high DPS AC/2 doesn't really turn that on its head, but it does make it harder to simply peek and shoot if somebody has said AC/2s trained on where the Gauss is trying to peek from.

Ok....
Just wanted to verify
Thanks

[Y E O N N E]

Escef, on 30 November 2014 - 01:22 PM, said:

2xAC2=5.56 DPS
1xGauss=3.16 DPS

AC2s ALREADY out-DPS the Gauss. Hell, a BLR-1D with 3xAC2 will out DPS a GaussJager. A 2xGauss/2xERPPC Dire Wolf compared to a 3xAC2/5xML BLR-1D? Max DPS favors the BLR slightly. Yes, the Dire has more range overall, better pinpoint, more armor, and better cooling. Meanwhile, that BLR is running a 375XL and can actually maneuver better than a paraplegic moose in a vat of molasses (comes with being 15 tons lighter and mounting a big engine).

Overall, AC2s are in an ok place and have been for some time.

Clan side, I just don't like the UAC2. Haven't tried the LB2X, and frankly am not interested in it.

But AC/2 don't out-DPS the AC/5, and they should. That's what I'm really concerned with, rather than the Gauss, which is why I said "by extension" when referring to it in the original suggestion on what to do with AC/2.

They are not in an okay place when it's just a better choice to take an AC/5. It's a better choice to take one AC/5 on a Blackjack than two AC/2, and that is even more true now than it was before the quirks.

And in no way is it okay that a 'Mech trying to extract the maximum rate of fire out of two weak guns gets slapped down by ghost heat.

Your BLR is running on luck and bad DWF pilots. Anything using AC/2s is, even if it gets buffed. Assuming you are both great shots, the Dire wins every time. 2.5 shots from him blows out your side torso and kills you, and you have to face tank to have any chance of killing him in the same amount of time, if he sees you coming before you are inside optimum ML range, you are toast. You also have to expose your whole torso to get those arm-mounted AC/2 into play, so that's not exactly great, either.

[Sandpit]

Yeonne Greene, on 30 November 2014 - 01:45 PM, said:

It's a better choice to take one AC/5 on a Blackjack than two AC/2

You do realize that you keep saying a weapon that does 2 damage per shell should out damage a weapon that does 5 damage per shell right and costs more in tonnage, crits, and limited more by ammo right?

[Escef]

Yeonne Greene, on 30 November 2014 - 01:45 PM, said:

Your BLR is running on luck and bad DWF pilots.

No, the BLR is running on sticking with the pack and not being very meta (most people default to shooting center mass since they don't know to expect an XL). As for bad DW pilots, in case you failed to notice, that's most of them. You play that BLR smart and you can pump out 600+ damage and get kills. Hell, if I can do it, any relatively mediocre pilot should be able to.

As for the AC5 comparison, the AC2 STILL gets better DPS per ton. As for your Blackjack, I'd least try twin AC2s instead of AC5s, and use the freed tonnage for heavier lasers or more heat sinks.

Edited by Escef, 30 November 2014 - 02:05 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

But AC/2 don't out-DPS the AC/5, and they should.

I dont know that the AC/2 should necessarily out-dps the AC/5. But the AC/2 should generate the same heat per damage as the AC/5.

AC/5 needs to be 1.5 heat

AC/2 needs to be 0.6 heat

That normalizes all autocannons at 1 heat per 3.3 damage done

AC20 = 6 heat for 20 damage
AC10 = 3 heat for 10 damage
AC5 = 1.5 heat for 5 damage
AC2 = 0.6 heat for 2 damage

Edited by Khobai, 30 November 2014 - 02:11 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Escef, on 30 November 2014 - 02:02 PM, said:

No, the BLR is running on sticking with the pack and not being very meta (most people default to shooting center mass since they don't know to expect an XL). As for bad DW pilots, in case you failed to notice, that's most of them. You play that BLR smart and you can pump out 600+ damage and get kills. Hell, if I can do it, any relatively mediocre pilot should be able to.

As for the AC5 comparison, the AC2 STILL gets better DPS per ton. As for your Blackjack, I'd least try twin AC2s instead of AC5s, and use the freed tonnage for heavier lasers or more heat sinks.

I have both BLRs (1G, 3M, 1D) and Blackjacks (1DC, 1X, Arrow). The WubMaster and AC/10 BrawlerMaster are far superior beasts to an AC/2 Master in any situation. The 2PPC + 6ML BLR-3M is also pretty great, running at 71 with a STD 340 and having pretty phenomenal heat dissipation. The Blackjack can run two AC/2, and I used to run that, but then they added ghost heat and lowered the rate of fire so it was no longer worth taking a pair. Running two AC/2 on the Arrow is great fun and plenty effective, but it's incredibly hot when you also factor in MGs taking up space and MLs going to get the DPS up. The quirks have solved the rate of fire problem on BJ-1 and BJ-1DC, but ghost heat on stagger fire is still stupid. I want to rapidly plink away as a distraction; I am not interested in maximizing the pinpoint damage per shot. Right now, I just run an AC/2 with two ERLL for 8 DPS on the BJ-1DC. It's pretty effective, but slow with a STD 200. It would be better if I could just run the two AC/2 for 8 DPS using the preferred STD 225and stagger fire for maximum suppression effect like I used to.

Furthermore, I'm also not most people. I pay very close attention to armament readouts on my targeting screen compared to how fast they are running and can usually tell when something has an XL. I kill people in builds like yours in three shots with a Locust (which also runs on luck and bad opponents, no matter how good we Locusts pilots might think we are). Even if you had a surprise STD, you'd at least be out of a significant amount of firepower.

Khobai, on 30 November 2014 - 02:06 PM, said:

I dont know that the AC/2 should necessarily out-dps the AC/5. But the AC/2 should generate the same heat per damage as the AC/5.

AC/5 needs to be 1.5 heat

AC/2 needs to be 0.6 heat

That normalizes all autocannons at 1 heat per 3.3 damage done

AC20 = 6 heat for 20 damage
AC10 = 3 heat for 10 damage
AC5 = 1.5 heat for 5 damage
AC2 = 0.6 heat for 2 damage

Normalizing the heat doesn't do enough to make the weapon more useful, though. It's still going to be weaksauce against any other ranged weapon. AC/5 have long enough range that they out-damage the AC/2 even sitting at 700 meters. Also ERLL. And ER PPC. And C-LPL.

[Escef]

Yeonne Greene, on 30 November 2014 - 02:39 PM, said:

The 2PPC + 6ML BLR-3M is also pretty great, running at 71 with a STD 340 and having pretty phenomenal heat dissipation.

Try a 400XL. You should be able to get another heat sink and do 83.9 with tweak. Yes, I run that.

Yeonne Greene, on 30 November 2014 - 02:39 PM, said:

I kill people in builds like yours in three shots with a Locust (which also runs on luck and bad opponents, no matter how good we Locusts pilots might think we are). Even if you had a surprise STD, you'd at least be out of a significant amount of firepower.

Well, yeah, duh, 3 volleys of 4xML to the ST-Rear of almost anything shy of an Atlas/Dire Will pop a torso (and depending upon how the player allocates their armor, still might).

Look, just put your damn e-peen away, I can't speak for everyone else here, but I know that I'm pretty tired of it. Yes, yes, yes, you are super great and your mommy tells you so, blah, blah, blah. So far your arguments consist of ignoring the stats and telling us how good you are.