70 replies to this topic

[Y E O N N E]

On the contrary, you are the one ignoring stats and throwing your ego around. You just referred to the majority of DWF pilots as bad. so I don't think it's much of a stretch to say that you consider most pilots of any chassis bad. In-game, prefer to just assume everybody is better than me. I make plenty of mistakes, I note them, and I learn from them. You are probably a far better Assault pilot than I am, but that doesn't mean I can't point out valid flaws in your BLR-1D build and tell you how I would counter said build.

So think about that, and then come tell me which one of us is suffering from a superiority complex.


Getting back to the topic, DPS per don was never the issue for the AC/2. It's the whole set of trade-offs. Compared to the AC/5 it does 40% of the damage and 92% of the DPS for 75% of the weight and 139% of the heat per second. That's not a good deal. You can shrug off these effects if you have a lot of tonnage to throw around like in the Battlemaster, but in the Blackjack it's hard to ignore. Do you take the AC/5 which has less DPS but allows you to also take other weapons, runs cool, and has greater pinpoint or do you take a pair of AC/2 which have less than twice the DPS but make it hard to bring other guns, run hot, and together have less pinpoint? It's not a hard decision. The AC/2 is supposed to be the Blackjack's bread and butter,though, but it just does not work as well as it should.

Returning it to 4.00 DPS and making it such that it doesn't ghost on stagger fire, however, would make running a pair in the Blackjack worth it again, even without the ballistic quirks,

[Escef]

Yeonne Greene, on 30 November 2014 - 05:20 PM, said:

On the contrary, you are the one ignoring stats...

I am? How? I've been freaking quoting them, you .... Holy crap.... Are you seriously that stupid? Look at the damned thread!

EDIT: You know what? Forget it. I don't care, I'm done with you. Blocked.

Edited by Escef, 30 November 2014 - 05:33 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Even though you won't see this, I do believe you need to go back and re-read the thread, because none of the stats support your position. You cherry picked and even changed metrics from DPS to DPS per ton. Nobody but you referenced DPS per ton, and DPS per ton is not the issue. Overall DPS is the issue. Nobody wants to bring a gun that weighs 75% as much as an AC/2.

Here are the DPS figures:

AC/2: 2.78
AC/5: 3.01
Gauss: 3.16

In what universe is 2.78 a greater value than 3.16? Not this one, buddy.

Okay, we have two AC/2. That's 12 tons and now 5.56 DPS. Yay, it's more DPS than a Gauss for 3 less tons! Except now it means that your Blackjack doesn't have from for anything more three medium lasers unless he's using an XL...in which case he's at risk of being an easy kill from laser vomit which will OUT-ALPHA him at any practical range. At least with a Gauss, the Blackjack could play the peek-n-poke game. Now it has to face-tank without even the courtesy of ghost-free rapid-fire plinkage to try and make it hard to aim at him.

How about AC/5? Well. it can't run two without an XL, but if it chooses to run an XL, for 16 tons it gets a nice 6.02 DPS before quirks. That's more than two AC/2. it will run out of ammo before it overheats, AND, since it had to run an XL, it now has space to mount extra guns and heatsinks to cool them.


Of course, this Blackjack could also just equip two ERLL, four ML, two MG, some extra heatsinks, and be far, far, far, more effective at any role it has the range to complete.

As for the Dire being non-agile, does it matter? He's going to see you running at him fro 400 meters away and plug your less armored side torso. The end. Your only hope is to sneak up on him or have greater numbers. One-on-one with somebody just as good as you, you lose.

That's what the range, firepower, and DPS stats say.

Sandpit, on 30 November 2014 - 01:50 PM, said:

You do realize that you keep saying a weapon that does 2 damage per shell should out damage a weapon that does 5 damage per shell right and costs more in tonnage, crits, and limited more by ammo right?

We've been over this before, Sandpit, in another thread, months ago.

The AC/2 needs an incentive to be used other than "I have a ballistic slot but no tonnage for an AC/5" because, in those cases, more or stronger lasers is usually a better option. Show me a build with AC/2, and I'll show you a build that could be improved.

Let's look at Escef's BLR-1D, with three AC/2, and XL375, and 5x medium lasers.

5x Medium Lasers with Cooldown module is 7.69 DPS after Elite skills (I think Fast Fire is 5%, correct me if I'm wrong) and quirks. With the original three AC/2, the total possile DPS is 17.79. You can keep that up for 13 seconds using EndoSteel, 6 tons of ammo, and as many heatsinks as you can cram in there.

Throw on two AC/5 with a cool-down module, include the ballistic quirk and Fast Fire to get 7.98 DPS from the cannons. Total, that's a maximum of 15.672 DPS. You can keep that up for 26 seconds with 5 tons of ammo and no EndoSteel. If you throw Endo on, you actually gain the tonnage to move up to an XL390 and keep everything else the same.

Against something with 100 hit points, the difference is less than a second of combat and a 60 meter reduction in optimum firing range for the cannons (not that it matters), but you save two tons in weight for the guns alone, greatly reduce heat production, have a better pin-point, and potentially gain more mobility.

Overall, I would call that a net improvement.

So what's the moral of the story? The moral is that the two tons and three crit-slot penalty for choosing an AC/5 really isn't much of a price to pay at all for a vastly superior weapon.

[Sigilum Sanctum]

Yeonne Greene, on 30 November 2014 - 06:46 PM, said:

Even though you won't see this, I do believe you need to go back and re-read the thread, because none of the stats support your position. You cherry picked and even changed metrics from DPS to DPS per ton. Nobody but you referenced DPS per ton, and DPS per ton is not the issue. Overall DPS is the issue. Nobody wants to bring a gun that weighs 75% as much as an AC/2.

Here are the DPS figures:

AC/2: 2.78
AC/5: 3.01
Gauss: 3.16

In what universe is 2.78 a greater value than 3.16? Not this one, buddy.

Okay, we have two AC/2. That's 12 tons and now 5.56 DPS. Yay, it's more DPS than a Gauss for 3 less tons! Except now it means that your Blackjack doesn't have from for anything more three medium lasers unless he's using an XL...in which case he's at risk of being an easy kill from laser vomit which will OUT-ALPHA him at any practical range. At least with a Gauss, the Blackjack could play the peek-n-poke game. Now it has to face-tank without even the courtesy of ghost-free rapid-fire plinkage to try and make it hard to aim at him.

How about AC/5? Well. it can't run two without an XL, but if it chooses to run an XL, for 16 tons it gets a nice 6.02 DPS before quirks. That's more than two AC/2. it will run out of ammo before it overheats, AND, since it had to run an XL, it now has space to mount extra guns and heatsinks to cool them.


Of course, this Blackjack could also just equip two ERLL, four ML, two MG, some extra heatsinks, and be far, far, far, more effective at any role it has the range to complete.

As for the Dire being non-agile, does it matter? He's going to see you running at him fro 400 meters away and plug your less armored side torso. The end. Your only hope is to sneak up on him or have greater numbers. One-on-one with somebody just as good as you, you lose.

That's what the range, firepower, and DPS stats say.



We've been over this before, Sandpit, in another thread, months ago.

The AC/2 needs an incentive to be used other than "I have a ballistic slot but no tonnage for an AC/5" because, in those cases, more or stronger lasers is usually a better option. Show me a build with AC/2, and I'll show you a build that could be improved.

Let's look at Escef's BLR-1D, with three AC/2, and XL375, and 5x medium lasers.

5x Medium Lasers with Cooldown module is 7.69 DPS after Elite skills (I think Fast Fire is 5%, correct me if I'm wrong) and quirks. With the original three AC/2, the total possile DPS is 17.79. You can keep that up for 13 seconds using EndoSteel, 6 tons of ammo, and as many heatsinks as you can cram in there.

Throw on two AC/5 with a cool-down module, include the ballistic quirk and Fast Fire to get 7.98 DPS from the cannons. Total, that's a maximum of 15.672 DPS. You can keep that up for 26 seconds with 5 tons of ammo and no EndoSteel. If you throw Endo on, you actually gain the tonnage to move up to an XL390 and keep everything else the same.

Against something with 100 hit points, the difference is less than a second of combat and a 60 meter reduction in optimum firing range for the cannons (not that it matters), but you save two tons in weight for the guns alone, greatly reduce heat production, have a better pin-point, and potentially gain more mobility.

Overall, I would call that a net improvement.

So what's the moral of the story? The moral is that the two tons and three crit-slot penalty for choosing an AC/5 really isn't much of a price to pay at all for a vastly superior weapon.

I'll agree with this analysis, and over all say a weight reduction of at least 1.5 tons would motivate me personally to consider an AC/2.

Edited by Sigilum Sanctum, 30 November 2014 - 07:23 PM.

[xengk]

Plinking those Lurmboat and PPCboat so they stop firing to take cover.

[Cyborne Elemental]

Dropping heat a bit would do wonders for the AC-2.

That staggerfire heatup needs to be removed too, at least for 2x.

[Bleary]

Two AC/5s is 10 damage at medium-long range. That's a cool, fast-firing -if heavy- PPC. Or an AC/10 that can switch between sniping and brawling.

Two AC/2s is 4 damage. That's the world's biggest small laser.

To get the damage out of AC/2s you have to stand there and tank with your face. If you can stay on target for that long and survive, you should be rewarded. It needs to do more DPS under those circumstances than an AC/5. Meaningfully more. Continuous damage is the only thing the gun can do. No other weapon in the game of comparable tonnage is so limited. Even LRMs can do direct fire builds.

If the pre-nerf Dragon 5N were a gun, it would be an AC/2. You need big rewards to offset the dangerous and suboptimal playstyle you must employ to use it.

Edited by Bleary, 02 December 2014 - 01:30 AM.

[xXBagheeraXx]

They just need to buff its rate of fire back before the last AC2 nerf, and redo any mechs that have AC2 ROF quirks, as they would be gatlin guns....pre nerf those things had a very nice rof and made people hate the ground you tread upon when you had multple ac2s.

I almost always carried 2 ac2s and 1 ac5 group fired together back in the ballistic hell days. It was a constant stream of pain going downrange.700+ damage games in my Battlemaster 1D were easy. Those were fun times...

Weight does not need to be changed tho....2 tons of ammo for 1 gun back even in the ballistic hell days was enough to get you through most of the game. Ghost heat scale changes, chainfire heat removal, and an increase in DPM are all this gun needs.

Edited by xXBagheeraXx, 02 December 2014 - 01:36 AM.

[Remarius]

This thread is seriously amusing just for Escef's tantrums.....

However, in answer to the OP, they're of no use at all in the post quirk world. I used to love them pre first round of nerfs and even used them until they dropped the range to just double but at that point they became redundant. Once range, velocity and cooldown quirks came in that gap in performance was accentuated. I've tried a 2 ERLL/2AC2 and other triple AC2 variations on the heavily quirked DRG-5N but its redundant in a game where everyone frontloads damage. Standing there plinking away doesn't work when the return fire is vastly heavier. Without range its best forgotten as you can fit an AC5 for only slightly more tonnage.

[Remarius]

sneeking, on 02 December 2014 - 01:50 AM, said:

I think they are perfect for a medium build if your looking for a balance across your ballistics energy and missile hard points and still want to keep some speed.

The nerfs have obviously come about to prevent heavy and assault bringing a crap tonne of them with ammo and..... well you know.

One or two on a medium makes sense to me and the quirks system could be used to bring this back without letting big boys exploit it like before.

Why would you use 2 AC2 on a medium when you can use 2 AC5? Particularly bearing in mind quirks....

[Lucky Noob]

For me AC2`s where about the Range they had,

Its an anti Air Weapon in Lore,

I was good with all the Changes, but the Range Nerf killed it.

Edited by Braddack, 02 December 2014 - 02:15 AM.

[Remarius]

sneeking, on 02 December 2014 - 02:01 AM, said:

2 ac5 on a yenlo for instance will leave you without lasers ( because of ammo thirst and slot requirements ) I do run that way for fun but a pair of ac2 leaves a lot more weight for other things.

Things like engines lasers heat sinks or jj if applicable, also a pair of two's takes less slots than a pair of fives if you're running endo ferro and XL like some mediums can.

Like some mediums should.

Just my opinions just my style, not forcing it on anyone.

Except a Yen lo Wang is very nicely quirked for an AC20..... any other AC is wasted utterly.

I am genuinely interested in why you'd pick a quirked AC2 build over a quirked AC5 build, e.g. a DRG-5N over a 1N.

I'd argue even a DRG-1C with quad ERLL is better than the AC2 build as your enemy often won't notice the initial damage so you can hide back under cover again in a sniper position or relocate.

[MangoBogadog]

I never understood why the rate of fire was reduced on the AC2, it was already regarded as not being very powerful and only semi decent against unwary opponents when boated or used in combination with other dakka on something like a Jagermech for example (this mech was designed for such weapon right?).

Anyway, when the rate of fire was reduced it went from a weapon that was possibly useful in some situations to a weapon that is not very useful in any.

Edited by MangoBogadog, 02 December 2014 - 02:21 AM.

[Escef]

Remarius, on 02 December 2014 - 01:39 AM, said:

This thread is seriously amusing just for Escef's tantrums.....

Tantrum? The word is flabbergasted.

[Remarius]

He he fair enough as we all play in different ways. I'm just happy that now DRG's are good enough to get me my last nights 34 kills in 7 games.... including a 0 kill disaster when my 440 pts of damage was our teams highest.

Afraid I love the quirks as now I run a load of mechs not just about 5 that I perform well and earn me great c-bills towards modules.

[Kamies]

I just leave this here for all that thinks BLR 1D with 3xAC2 is bad:



And leave this here for everyone that thinks AC2s are hot: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...3605ff639e7701f

Use weapon lab, put 0% for the medium lasers and you shall see that fully mastered BLR 1D will have 93% heat effiency when using only AC2s. Of course that is just stupidly good so you will use lasers too but if you want you could shoot 3xAC2s five minutes straight.

So if you drop AC2 heat my BLR would be heat neutral and could use AC2s as badass MGs.

edit. Just give AC2s finally the cooldown module. Maybe raise ghost heat to start from 5 and not from 4. But do not drop the heat!

Edited by Kamies, 02 December 2014 - 02:42 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

A/C2 can be good for a couple things I suppose.

1. Keeping the enemeis head down. Just general suppression fire.

2. Keeping up DPS when your other weapons are in cool down. Nothing worse than coring an opponent and turning his internals orange or red, then losing the kill to a team mate while you wait for your LLasers to cycle. Maintaining constant damage is nice.

Whether or not that is worth the tonnage or the ballistic slot is up to the builder I suppose. I don't run and A/C2 too often, so I normally don't feel it is worth it.

[Remarius]

Kamies, on 02 December 2014 - 02:38 AM, said:

I just leave this here for all that thinks BLR 1D with 3xAC2 is bad:



And leave this here for everyone that thinks AC2s are hot: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...3605ff639e7701f

Use weapon lab, put 0% for the medium lasers and you shall see that fully mastered BLR 1D will have 93% heat effiency when using only AC2s. Of course that is just stupidly good so you will use lasers too but if you want you could shoot 3xAC2s five minutes straight.

So if you drop AC2 heat my BLR would be heat neutral and could use AC2s as badass MGs.

edit. Just give AC2s finally the cooldown module. Maybe raise ghost heat to start from 5 and not from 4. But do not drop the heat!

So to clarify you've posted an exceptional battle where you did 1,451 damage over 8 targets and got TWO kills.. which you think is good? Its a impressive number but implies farming damage on assaults arms/legs or an incredible inability to finish off a target. If you take down a target fast it can't damage you or your team and every time you do that your teams job gets easier. Spreading damage all over an enemy doesn't help much.

I'll post some pictures from last night when I get home where an entirely normal run of 7 battles got me 34 kills and top 3 damage in every battle in an AC5 build (despite that 0 kill disaster in one battle). I mysteriously didn't waste 182 pts of damage on each target.....

Coincidentally thats normal not exceptional....

[Nik Reaper]

Well... again, so here we go for all you unable to do the reserch even if this is the internetc....

The nerf to AC rate of fire and the heat penalty is there for a very simple and funny reason, not so long ago in a land far far away ( at least I pray ) for convinence sake let's call it newby land it seems that people like to play this game as WoT , and it turns out if you don't torso twist, move much and come out of cover, stand still and take aim slowly a buzz saw of ac2 was able to end you'r life in a fiery explosive manner with much shake going on.

PGI heard the plight of these poor poor souls and nerfed the easy mode for newbys ... wich is why we can't have nice things...

Edited by Nik Reaper, 02 December 2014 - 03:16 AM.

[Kamies]

Remarius, on 02 December 2014 - 02:57 AM, said:

I'll post some pictures from last night when I get home where an entirely normal run of 7 battles got me 34 kills and top 3 damage in every battle in an AC5 build (despite that 0 kill disaster in one battle). I mysteriously didn't waste 182 pts of damage on each target.....

Coincidentally thats normal not exceptional....

Lol I never said you or AC5s are bad Only that BLR 1D with 3xAC2s is NOT bad. I have more screenshots with high damage and 6 kills and so on too but this shouldn't be about the size of our penises. This is about AC2.