18 replies to this topic

[MoonUnitBeta]

Lore and junk out the window, I'm looking to make this weapon a little more flavourful and help bring more information warfare to the battlefield.
*Note: numbers in within these brackets [ ] are obviously examples only.

• Narc is destroyed after [60] Streak or LRM damage, or when the narc expires, which would be [1-2] seconds shorter than it is now. <-- click to see my reasoning behind why I think we need this.
  
• Narc ammo increased to 10/ton.
  
• Narc ammo has been upgraded and now includes a seismic/motion detection module. (Yes! Missed narcs are not a total loss after all! )

New Narc Ammo Module Addition:


When shot at the ground, the narc pulses the most currently recorded enemy movement every [2] global seconds within [250]m radius of the narc to all members of the team, lasting for [4] pulses. (yes, essentially a disposable seismic sensor). Every mech detected per pulse rewards [25]cb and [1]xp per pulse. The narc will flash red with every pulse, and mechs that step on the narc or shoot it will destroy it.

Reward Example (contingent on the example numbers above, this if for example purposes):
If 12 mechs were detected each pulse, that would yield a total of 1200cb and 48xp.
If 4 mechs, then 6 mechs, then 6 mechs, and then 8 mechs were detected, that would yield a total of 600cb and 24xp

Exploitation Prevention (this is the importance of the global cooldown/pulse!!!):
Launching another narc within the same radius as another narc will not ping separately from the other that was launched previously. The narc’s pulses are on a global cooldown, every 2 seconds, and the amount of pulses dictates the narc’s lifespan, not a time limit. The benefit to launching more than one narc into the ground, though, would simply be to cover more ground, and not to acquire more pings (which would overlap rewards and could add up to ridiculous amounts.) Over lapping radius’ would not yield any benefit.

Rewards For Overlapping Narcs Shot From The Same Or Different Persons:
If two narcs overlap an area, the narc launched first will reward the shooter. The narc launched second will not reward the other shooter, until the first narc expires or until it detects a mech that is within an area that is not overlapping any pre-existing areas.

Post thoughts and discussion below, will later ask this to be moved to Feature Suggestions if you like it, or after any changes...

Edited by MoonUnitBeta, 01 December 2014 - 11:44 AM.

[Inappropriate018]

MoonUnitBeta, on 01 December 2014 - 09:16 AM, said:

Lore and junk out the window

People here are very sensitive when it come to their lore, so good luck.

MoonUnitBeta, on 01 December 2014 - 09:16 AM, said:

• Narc is destroyed after [60] Streak or LRM damage, or when the narc expires, which would be [1-2] seconds shorter than it is now.
  
• Narc ammo increased to 10/ton.
  
• Narc ammo has been upgraded and now includes a seismic/motion detection module. (Yes! Missed narcs are not a total loss after all! )

I agree with everything you suggested, it would actually make me bring narcs, especially the 10 per ton of ammo.

[MoonUnitBeta]

Inappropriate018, on 01 December 2014 - 09:45 AM, said:

People here are very sensitive when it come to their lore, so good luck.

Haha, yeah, I know. But with ECM, BAP, consumables, modules, custom made hero mechs, different weapon values and mechanics etc, We aren't really in verbatim loreland anymore, except for using the timeline as a general guide for the game's content. So to hell with it i say, lol Let's make this a great game at least.

Inappropriate018, on 01 December 2014 - 09:45 AM, said:

I agree with everything you suggested, it would actually make me bring narcs, especially the 10 per ton of ammo.

Thanks for the positive feedback! I figured the ammo increase would be necissary for the damage limit, shorter beacon time, and hopefully you will be expending ammo purposefully into the ground as well.

Edited by MoonUnitBeta, 01 December 2014 - 09:55 AM.

[Mechteric]

MoonUnitBeta, on 01 December 2014 - 09:16 AM, said:

is destroyed after [60] Streak or LRM damage, or when the narc expires, which would be [1-2] seconds shorter than it is now.

Narcs used to be destroyed after a similar amount of damage, and subsequently nobody used them because it made them worthless.

We should instead take a page from MWLL and let PPC's knock Narcs off, that way you could even get a friendly to shoot you to take their 10 damage instead of >10 from LRM.

Also we really really need some indication when we have been narc'd in our cockpit, its really insane we haven't gotten this yet.

[InKerenskyWeTrust]

I really like your 2nd and 3rd suggestions, but I will echo the comment of CapperDeluxe and say I think a PPC/ERPPC should be able to take it out.

[FupDup]

Narc already has 12 ammo. Changing it to 10 would be a decrease, not an increase.


In general, I think the main thing we need above all else is a HUD indicator that you have a Narc Bacon attached to your butt.

Also, Narc (and TAG) awards should reward lock-on missile damage to the target instead of only giving out rewards when the target is killed. The requirement of the target dying means that Narc/TAG rewards basically no longer exist, for the most part.

[Pjwned]

FupDup, on 01 December 2014 - 11:07 AM, said:

Also, Narc (and TAG) awards should reward lock-on missile damage to the target instead of only giving out rewards when the target is killed. The requirement of the target dying means that Narc/TAG rewards basically no longer exist, for the most part.

Agreed, if you put up a UAV you get rewards for damage dealt to mechs spotted by it, so why not do the same for NARC as well?

[MoonUnitBeta]

CapperDeluxe, on 01 December 2014 - 10:30 AM, said:

Narcs used to be destroyed after a similar amount of damage, and subsequently nobody used them because it made them worthless.

We should instead take a page from MWLL and let PPC's knock Narcs off, that way you could even get a friendly to shoot you to take their 10 damage instead of >10 from LRM.

Also we really really need some indication when we have been narc'd in our cockpit, its really insane we haven't gotten this yet.

The way it was done before was 40 35 points of cumulative damage would knock them off, and that's why it never lasted. I'd like to bring that back, but with increased damage limit (since LRMS are doing less damage now) narrowed down to just streaks or LRMs, which is 3 volleys of an LRM 20 (since each missle does 1 damage. but even more if some missiles miss)

I think PPC diabling it is a good idea, though.. hmm. - Quick Edit: Alright. I think that PPC shouldn't disable the Narc. Reason being is because unlike ECM, the light mech has to go and renarc the target. As a light mech, I think that would be worse than the LRM damage knocking it off. There's a certain amount of predicability that comes with LRM damage, but if someone packs one PPC and bonks your enemy, off it goes. That just sucks. You worked hard to get that narc on the enemy. The purpose for narc is for target info and locking. To have a weapon unrelated to those to remove the narc would just make me frustrated with it. No friendly player would shoot another with a 15 damage weapon just to knock off a Narc (especially if we get a Narc icon. I'll take go find cover over instead blasted by a PPC tyvm). So now we've established that PPC are incoming, hostile weapon. So the person narcing is going to get their narc disabled by their team mate? That's not very team friendly, is it?

The problem I was coming across with is that Narc is basically time limit for players to fire as many missiles as fast as they possibly can. I feel like this puts too much pressure on the person who is narced, and with a hard limit like it is now, the player must lock himself under cover for the full duration of the narc, or take huge missile damage for a painful amount of time. And remember, this doesn’t just open him up to LRM’s, it also shows his location as well, and he’s completely targetable, with paperdoll information accessible by anyone.

With a fixed damage limit I feel like it puts at least some control into the narced person's hands, and gives them something to expect. Right now I feel like the incoming damage is too unpredictable, as in there’s nothing to base your choices off of (cover or no cover?). The only thing you know is that you’re narced for how ever many seconds, forcing you to take cover because of its unpredictability. One Narc takes a smart mech out of battle for the whole duration. I think that’s pretty…. Well, cheap. If there’s a damage cap, you at least have a metric to gauge your survivability by, and base your choices off that.

Edited by MoonUnitBeta, 01 December 2014 - 02:22 PM.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

10 per ton would be nice.

NARC expiring on damage isn't necessary, nor is shortening how long it lasts. All we need is some way for a mech to know it has been NARCed, whether it be a HUD symbol (like ECM gives), or a way for a friendly to tell you quickly (comm rose or in-game voice comms).

As for the NARC seismic, I really like this plan. I'd say let it last just as long as NARC normally does, but have it pulse every 2.5s and have ECM prevent it from sharing the info it collects.

[MoonUnitBeta]

FupDup, on 01 December 2014 - 11:07 AM, said:

Narc already has 12 ammo. Changing it to 10 would be a decrease, not an increase.


In general, I think the main thing we need above all else is a HUD indicator that you have a Narc Bacon attached to your butt.

Also, Narc (and TAG) awards should reward lock-on missile damage to the target instead of only giving out rewards when the target is killed. The requirement of the target dying means that Narc/TAG rewards basically no longer exist, for the most part.

12? oh.. I thought it was at 7 LOL!
I'll change it when i get home. Maybe 15 then would be good? The ammo increase woould only be there because the narc might be falling off more often though. So if you're not in favor for that, I feel like ammo quantity is good where it's at.

I'm not really in tune with Narc rewards, except that I know they were gimped from the start. Reawrds by lock-on sounds like a tricky thing to balance. LRM boats lose locks as they manevour around, better pilots keep their lock. So how do you hand out rewards that way? Something to discuss else where though... That's just some food for thought. Sorry, i read what you said wrong. Damage would be good, indeed. But following that pattern, I tihnk that would only enforce the idea to have a damage limit on narcs? What do you think? PGI needs something to go by to base their rewards off of. In my mind, if they do 50cb per point of damage, (for example) your target could get hit with... 10 lrms... or.... 200!
The fact is, you didn't actually do more to get that 200 more lrms, it just turned out that your team had more LRM boats, or lrm boats that were paying attention.
I think this is where it started to get really finnicky to decide how rewards are given out. If by kills, it's not as spiked. If by damage, you could be looking at super highs or super lows. That's my expectation at least.

But anyways, I think we're moving off topic discussing rewards of Narc. My aim is to add introduce Narc as a managable device that engages light mechs more often, and add a secondary use to the Narc as a beacon.

Edited by MoonUnitBeta, 01 December 2014 - 12:07 PM.

[MoonUnitBeta]

Daoa Hakoke, on 01 December 2014 - 10:59 AM, said:

I really like your 2nd and 3rd suggestions, but I will echo the comment of CapperDeluxe and say I think a PPC/ERPPC should be able to take it out.

Hi Daoa, take a look at the bigger fonted text in this post. Let me know what you think? I'm wondering why you think PPC should take it out, but not LRM's. LRM's is not an instant knock off, and the beacon persists for a duration. But a PPC from a team mate hitting the target you just Narced removes the Narc instantly. I'm not seeing the benefits with this that makes you prefer one PPC's over LRM's...Maybe someone can explain it to me? Haha

[Sybreed]

PGI can't code switchable ammo for the LbX, so I doubt they can code different types of damage just for the sake of nerfing narc.

Besides, NARC is fine.

[MoonUnitBeta]

Sybreed, on 01 December 2014 - 12:56 PM, said:

PGI can't code switchable ammo for the LbX, so I doubt they can code different types of damage just for the sake of nerfing narc.

Besides, NARC is fine.

How do you mean, different types of damage? The damage from missiles to PPC to lasers is tracked separately. You see it in your stats, it's part of the screen showing you what damaged you when you died, and it's even part of the rewards. I hope you weren't being facetious just to introduce your opinion that you think Narc is fine.

My suggestion is a buff to Narc all around. The nerf happens when the light mech has to apply the Narc a little sooner than they normally would. The downside, they consume ammo, but that has been taken into consideration. So, is that the nerf you're talkign about? Or is it that you’re focusing too much on the 60 lrm damage and giving a knee jerk reaction that it’s an immediate nerf? Do you know what the average LRM damage players take while Narc is on? Do you know if it is more or less than 60? If it’s less, why complain? If it’s more, then umm hello - Narc is OP! It’s 60 points of damage for one little bloop? That’s a higher damage ratio to tonnage than dual AC40/s, or quad gauss direwolves (before including the lrm boats ).

Seriously though, as I mentioned before, the player who gets narc is basically screwed. They either disengage from combat and hide for the entire duration of the Narc OR basically risk taking a face full of missiles that they can’t do anything about. The trouble comes when you can’t accurately gauge the amount of incoming damage, or have a metric to go by to help you make that decision. Not to mention that their location (and paperdoll too?) is exposed during this. If people can see their paper doll and their CT gets blown out during the LRM narc invasion, you can be that in 10 seconds a light or medium mech is swooping in to core them out.

Edited by MoonUnitBeta, 01 December 2014 - 02:04 PM.

[Sybreed]

MoonUnitBeta, on 01 December 2014 - 01:48 PM, said:

How do you mean, different types of damage? The damage from missiles to PPC to lasers is tracked separately. You see it in your stats, it's part of the screen showing you what damaged you when you died, and it's even part of the rewards. I hope you weren't being facetious just to introduce your opinion that you think Narc is fine.

My suggestion is a buff to Narc all around. The nerf happens when the light mech has to apply the Narc a little sooner than they normally would. The downside, they consume ammo, but that has been taken into consideration. So, is that the nerf you're talkign about? Or is it that you’re focusing too much on the 60 lrm damage and giving a knee jerk reaction that it’s an immediate nerf? Do you know what the average LRM damage players take while Narc is on? Do you know if it is more or less than 60? If it’s less, why complain? If it’s more, then umm hello - Narc is OP! It’s 60 points of damage for one little bloop? That’s a higher damage ratio to tonnage than dual AC40/s, or quad gauss direwolves (before including the lrm boats ).

Seriously though, as I mentioned before, the player who gets narc is basically screwed. They either disengage from combat and hide for the entire duration of the Narc OR basically risk taking a face full of missiles that they can’t do anything about. The trouble comes when you can’t accurately gauge the amount of incoming damage, or have a metric to go by to help you make that decision. Not to mention that their location (and paperdoll too?) is exposed during this. If people can see their paper doll and their CT gets blown out during the LRM narc invasion, you can be that in 10 seconds a light or medium mech is swooping in to core them out.

my mistake then, I thought they weren't tracked separately. But, after reading your post, you kind of just convinced me your change isn't necessary......

[terrycloth]

Having to reapply it is a huge, huge nerf, since usually you can't. You shoot it at people who then go hide.

60 points of damage from LRMs is only 9 points of damage per section. You'd have to NARC a completely flatfooted assault 10 times to have LRMs actually kill it, and it still might live -- that's just insane.

[Atheus]

Disposable seismic sensors? I don't think so. Seismic sensors cost 6 million C-Bills each. This would make NARC ammo far too expensive (60+ million per ton!). I don't think anyone can afford that. Too bad!

[Tarogato]

Narc is very strong - the reason people aren't complaining about it is because you don't see it much, and you don't see it much because Narc doesn't actually hurt things. People would rather bring more weapons and ammo.

If you think about it, it grants visibility on a mech regardless of LoS to all friendlies. If your team is smart, they'll use this information for focus fire or if multiple enemies are narc'd, you get to see which direction they're all facing.

The only feature I'd like to see is a warning of when the narc is about to die. Assuming it's powered by an internal battery to broadcast the signals, it stops when it runs out, but we should be able to see the signal from it grow weaker or intermittent towards the end. LRMs will know not to fire at the last second because they're lose homing lock, but the narc still has enough energy to transmit the dorito for a few seconds, which is useful in its own right.

Oh, btw, BAP is supposed to grant active radar detection similar to how our Seismic Sensor works. The Devs replaced that functionality with a module that doesn't cost any tonnage. I still think they should give seismic/radar back to the BAP and have the module double the range.

Inappropriate018, on 01 December 2014 - 09:45 AM, said:

People here are very sensitive when it come to their lore, so good luck.

Especially considering the first thing I did while reading the OP was pull up the Sarna page, you have a point. XD

[The Cheese]

CapperDeluxe, on 01 December 2014 - 10:30 AM, said:

We should instead take a page from MWLL and let PPC's knock Narcs off, that way you could even get a friendly to shoot you to take their 10 damage instead of >10 from LRM.

Do we really need a legitimate reason to shoot our team mates?

I can see it now... half a team's worth of well-meaning friendlies all have the same idea at the same time: "I'll get that NARC off! He'll thank me when he doesn't take 20 damage from LRMs."

Then he died.


I could definitely get behind idea of a disposable seismic sensor though.

Edited by The Cheese, 01 December 2014 - 06:23 PM.

[MoonUnitBeta]

Atheus, on 01 December 2014 - 05:07 PM, said:

Disposable seismic sensors? I don't think so. Seismic sensors cost 6 million C-Bills each. This would make NARC ammo far too expensive (60+ million per ton!). I don't think anyone can afford that. Too bad!

Narc seismic would not ping nearly as quickly.
It only lasts for X seconds (or pulses).
It's bound by ammo limitation which you should/would also be using to narc mechs for LRMs.
It does not move.
It can be destroyed...

So, what's your concern? Why does the ammo have to cost millions and millions; because there's a module that costs that much?