15 replies to this topic

[Scout Derek]

As the Mist Lynx(Koshi) has been a let down a bit, the Ice Ferret(Fenris) mixed emotions, and Hellbringer(Loki) a bit of both happiness and upsets, the Final Question comes down to the Gargoyle(Man O' War). Will it be as good as the Hellbringer, or as bad as the Mist Lynx, or more like the Ice Ferret, a mix of emotions? I say my opinion in each Chasis, from lancemate's opinion and topic opinions. If you feel that one of the mechs above has a higher or lower rating, don't state it, I'm asking the opinion on the Gargolye, and it only. ~Scout Derek

[FupDup]

I'm expecting the Gargles to be lesser than the hitbox-fixed Corebringer, but better than the Ice Weasel and Mist Stinks. It won't be the best assault unless something catastrophic happens, but it should at least be a fun troll mech. Man O' Wub, go!

[Deathlike]

I believe the Gargoyle will be a niche mech. It is stupidly aggressively fast for an Assault (you'd need a Dragon Slayer or Pretty Baby to dabble at those speeds), yet carries the least amount of weaponry you'd want to do with an Assault... so you'll end up with lots of energy and a large ballistic. I'm not sure if you can improve otherwise... missiles would be limited (1M at most on each arm)... but at least it has more options than the Mist Lynx and Ice Ferret combined... technically.

I'll probably be fine with it... mechs going fast is a positive to me, despite the minmaxer in me saying it's a terrible proposition.

Edited by Deathlike, 01 December 2014 - 02:30 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Not too great, but capable.

Clam laserspam moving at 90. Like the Meds, and the Heavies. But with less pod space than the 55 tonner (ignoring heatsinks).

Acceptable, hitbox depending, and on how low those arms are mounted. Nothing stellar, but better than the Koshi and Ferret, since it can still have 20 tons of weapons.

[YaKillinMeSmalls]

One thing I've noticed about Clan teams vs IS teams is that one of the major team advantages (as opposed to the individual advantages) the Clans have is that most of their mechs move at comparable speeds. This means that Clan teams tend to stick together even in pugs, as opposed to IS teams which get more spread out due to the speed differences for each weight class.

The only exception so far to the Clan 81/90kph deathball has been the assaults, which lag behind like IS teams. I think the Gargoyle at best will be an assault that will be able to keep up with the rest of the Clan team and not drag down the fast-moving death ball like a Dire Whale. At worst, it will be basically a Clan Heavy that fills an assault slot. If you're looking tor team focus-fire over individual firepower, that isn't a bad thing.

[Deathlike]

Mcgral18, on 01 December 2014 - 02:37 PM, said:

Not too great, but capable.

Clam laserspam moving at 90. Like the Meds, and the Heavies. But with less pod space than the 55 tonner (ignoring heatsinks).

Acceptable, hitbox depending, and on how low those arms are mounted. Nothing stellar, but better than the Koshi and Ferret, since it can still have 20 tons of weapons.

Do you think 6 MPL or something like 1 LPL+5MPL would scare some people?

Man O'Wub sounds promising.

[Alistair Winter]

It's officially DOA.

Game O'war, man. Game O'war.

[Angel of Annihilation]

I actually love my Mist Lynx and it has even inspired me to rebuild one of my Firestarters to sorta copy it (though the Firestarter is faster, has more armor and actually has CT weapons in case my arms get blown off so basically superior all around except for lacking that wonderful Clan XL).

Ice Ferret is alot of fun too and I have had fairly good success

Neither are the best in their class but they are good enough and fun.

Hellbringer should be good once they correct the hitboxes if they correct them properly and get rid of all the CT holes scattered across the mech. Wouldn't mind seeing at least some of the sides of the chest protrusion become ST hit box so twisting became more effective defensively but we will have to see what they come up with before final judgement.

As far as the Gargoyle, honestly I think it is going to be alot better than most people are expecting.

First people tend to look at the free tonnage and focus on the fact it only has around 20-21 tons free for weapons. However what they don't focus on is that it comes stock with 16 DHS which is significantly more than most Clan mechs mount stock. When you consider that very few builds actually run fewer than 16 DHS anyway and usually require adding 1,2.3 or more tons worth of DHS just to reach 16 that actual tonnage purely available for weapons isn't really too bad.

Second, the Gargoyle mounts a 400XL stock. As most people know, things like agility, acceleration, deceleration and torso twist speeds are directly tied to the size of the engine so these stats are going to be at the max possible values on the Gargoyle.

Third, the hard point options aren't really that bad. The prime variant will be able to bring 7 energy or 5 energy, 1 ballistic, 1 missile as common builds. Even the worst variant has room for 6 energy or 4 energy, 1 ballistic, 1 missile. Honestly this gives it alot of flexibilty though obviously it is primarily an energy hog.

Fourth, it has a humanoid shape, with a relatively flat CT section and traditionally humanoid mechs are very good at defensive torso twisting giving them great survivabiity.

Fifth, it is fast. 89 kph fast. Only the Dragonslayer and Pretty Baby can reach those speeds as an Assault however neither one can do it while mounting the same level of firepower that a Gargoyle can do. Remember the Gargoyle has LOTS of energy hardpoints which are excellent for mounting low weight medium lasers.

One of my builds will probably be 2 LPLs, 4 ER ML with 21-22 DHS. Another will be 2 ER LL, 4 MPL and again 21-22 DHS. Another option wtih 7 MPL 23 DHS. I will have to try an AC or Gauss paired with 4-5 ER MLs as well. Yeah mostly laser vomit but if it works I am happy.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 01 December 2014 - 02:59 PM.

[Greenjulius]

FupDup, on 01 December 2014 - 02:23 PM, said:

I'm expecting the Gargles to be lesser than the hitbox-fixed Corebringer, but better than the Ice Weasel and Mist Stinks. It won't be the best assault unless something catastrophic happens, but it should at least be a fun troll mech. Man O' Wub, go!

This is about on target. It'll be just as good as the Wubbringer with 6MPL, but bigger and with more armor. The only thing that will be better about the Wubbringer is the smaller size and ECM.

Edited by Greenjulius, 01 December 2014 - 03:14 PM.

[Brody319]

depends on how good it can wub. lets just hope the hitboxes work correctly.

[TheMadTypist]

I did some numbers on this awhile ago. It doesn't look great. When you bring in the further likely PGI factors, it seems pretty grim.

The Numbers We Know:

The gargoyle at stock brings 21.5 tons of gun and 422 points of armor, moving at 81 kph with 6 fixed heatsinks and a max of 8 hardpoints. Compare this to the Summoner, with 21 tons of gun at 422 points of armor, moving 81 kph with five fixed JJ, 4 fixed heatsinks, and 6 max hardpoints. Ignoring anything but these figures, the 'mechs seem roughly on par with the summoner having a mobility advantage in JJ's, while the Gargoyle-D has an advantage of 8 max hardpoints over the Summoner's six.

The Gargoyle can be increased to 460 points of armor with one ton of FF armor added on. This brings it to 20.5 tons of gun with 460 points of armor moving at 81 kph with six fixed heatsinks and a max of eight hardpoints. Compare this to the Timberwolf, with between 22.5 and 27.5 tons of gun (depending on JJ omnipods) wearing 460 points of armor moving at 81 kph with five fixed heatsinks and a max of 9 hardpoints without JJ or a max of 11 hardpoints with 4 JJ (or 10 with 5). The Timberwolf can enjoy a significant firepower advantage both in terms of tonnage and hardpoints, while potentially rocking a mobility advantage as well.

The gargoyle can support 20 points (~.5 ton) of armor above 460, bringing it to 480 total. This leaves it with 20 tons of gun, 480 points of armor, moving at 81kph with six fixed heatsinks and a max of eight hardpoints. Compare that as you will to the above examples.

The PGI Factors:

Here I move into the realm of guesswork based on previous behavior, you can stop here if you prefer just the numbers.

The gargoyle is an assault 'mech moving at 81 kph. Like the Dragon and Quickdraw before it, it moves fast enough that it will inevitably be punished for going too fast for its class by an increase in scale. I expect it will be closer in scale to the Banshee or Highlander than the Victor or Orion.

The increase in scale will likely have a direct impact on the size of hitboxes and the relative survivability. The 422 point Gargoyle now looks inferior to the similarly protected Summoner, because not only is it less maneuverable it will have a harder time making effective use of its armor. The 460 and possibly 480 point Gargoyles now have a survivability weakness in comparison to the Timberwolf, in addition to their previous weaknesses.

We must also consider that most of the armaments are mounted on the arms, and all weapons will be mounted at belt level. Shielding with the arms becomes less attractive when it means losing significant firepower, and the low mounts reduces survivability further on uneven terrain, where more of the 'mech must expose to fire.

Another point is that none of the wave 2 'mechs released thus far have had quirk bonuses significant enough to dramatically affect how it plays. It's likely the Gargoyle will have few or none.

Given these factors and the above numbers the gargoyle may suffer significant survivability issues and have difficulty competing with 5-10 ton lighter 'mechs that do not soak up an assault slot. It may well earn the nickname “Tinfoyl”. Primary uses will include removing the slow assault anchor from mobile teams, while cutting out significant firepower, and countering Clan envy of the mighty Wubshee.

...

Hell, I'll still drive it.

Edited by TheMadTypist, 01 December 2014 - 04:05 PM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

TheMadTypist, on 01 December 2014 - 04:05 PM, said:

I did some numbers on this awhile ago. It doesn't look great. When you bring in the further likely PGI factors, it seems pretty grim.

The Numbers We Know:

The gargoyle at stock brings 21.5 tons of gun and 422 points of armor, moving at 81 kph with 6 fixed heatsinks and a max of 8 hardpoints. Compare this to the Summoner, with 21 tons of gun at 422 points of armor, moving 81 kph with five fixed JJ, 4 fixed heatsinks, and 6 max hardpoints. Ignoring anything but these figures, the 'mechs seem roughly on par with the summoner having a mobility advantage in JJ's, while the Gargoyle-D has an advantage of 8 max hardpoints over the Summoner's six.

The Gargoyle can be increased to 460 points of armor with one ton of FF armor added on. This brings it to 20.5 tons of gun with 460 points of armor moving at 81 kph with six fixed heatsinks and a max of eight hardpoints. Compare this to the Timberwolf, with between 22.5 and 27.5 tons of gun (depending on JJ omnipods) wearing 460 points of armor moving at 81 kph with five fixed heatsinks and a max of 9 hardpoints without JJ or a max of 11 hardpoints with 4 JJ (or 10 with 5). The Timberwolf can enjoy a significant firepower advantage both in terms of tonnage and hardpoints, while potentially rocking a mobility advantage as well.

The gargoyle can support 20 points (~.5 ton) of armor above 460, bringing it to 480 total. This leaves it with 20 tons of gun, 480 points of armor, moving at 81kph with six fixed heatsinks and a max of eight hardpoints. Compare that as you will to the above examples.

The PGI Factors:

Here I move into the realm of guesswork based on previous behavior, you can stop here if you prefer just the numbers.

The gargoyle is an assault 'mech moving at 81 kph. Like the Dragon and Quickdraw before it, it moves fast enough that it will inevitably be punished for going too fast for its class by an increase in scale. I expect it will be closer in scale to the Banshee or Highlander than the Victor or Orion.

The increase in scale will likely have a direct impact on the size of hitboxes and the relative survivability. The 422 point Gargoyle now looks inferior to the similarly protected Summoner, because not only is it less maneuverable it will have a harder time making effective use of its armor. The 460 and possibly 480 point Gargoyles now have a survivability weakness in comparison to the Timberwolf, in addition to their previous weaknesses.

We must also consider that most of the armaments are mounted on the arms, and all weapons will be mounted at belt level. Shielding with the arms becomes less attractive when it means losing significant firepower, and the low mounts reduces survivability further on uneven terrain, where more of the 'mech must expose to fire.

Another point is that none of the wave 2 'mechs released thus far have had quirk bonuses significant enough to dramatically affect how it plays. It's likely the Gargoyle will have few or none.

Given these factors and the above numbers the gargoyle may suffer significant survivability issues and have difficulty competing with 5-10 ton lighter 'mechs that do not soak up an assault slot. It may well earn the nickname “Tinfoyl”. Primary uses will include removing the slow assault anchor from mobile teams, while cutting out significant firepower, and countering Clan envy of the mighty Wubshee.

...

Hell, I'll still drive it.

First, rarely do I ever use all my hardpoints and usually it does not make sense to do so anyway. Second, the Summoner has too major failing points.

One, lack of energy hardpoints which are the only options for lightweight firepower. ER MLs are 1 ton each and do not require ammo. By comparison the Summoner can mount only 4 energy weapons with the rest of the hardpoints being either ballistic or missile both of which require significant weight investments. Basically I would kill to be able to mount 2 more ER MLs on my Summoner as it would change what it is capable of by a large margin.

Second, it has 4 tons worth of relatively worthless JJs. If the JJs could be used tactically it would be one thing but they are barely able to really jump over anything higher than head shoulder height. An advantage yes, but not really much of one.

So when comparing to the Summoner, you first end up having significantly more usable hardpoints allowing you to significantly increase firepower by using lightweight medium lasers instead of ballistics or missiles.

Second, while they both have similar amounts of free tonnage, theoretically at least, the Gargoyle comes with 2 more heat sinks stock. That means you have two less heatsinks that you have to mount so technically unless your build uses less than 16 DHS (not likely) the Gargoyle has the equivalent of 2 additional tons available over the Summoner.

Third, your forgetting the extra mobility that comes with mounting a 400XL. I mention it above in a earlier post but the 400XL gives is maximum agiliy, acceleration, deceleration, torso twist, etc. Because of this there is actually a fair possibility that the Gargoyle might even be more agile than the Summoner.

Honestly, it is pretty obvious to me that aside from whatever limited mobility advantage the nerfed to hell Summoner jump jets give you, that the Gargoyle will clearly out class it.

Compared to the Timber Wolf, well that I can agree on. Timber Wolf offers significantly more tonnage so it is better able to handle as much or more weaponry and manage cooling more efficiently. The one thing where the Gargoyle might stand out is defensive torso twisting since the Timber Wolf's protruding snout effectively prevents it from fully protecting its CT. If the Gargoyle for example, ends up with defensive twisting capabilities similar to an Atlas, then it is quite possible Gargoyle might actually equal the Timber Wolf overall, at least in the right hands.

[Kain Demos]

YaKillinMeSmalls, on 01 December 2014 - 02:46 PM, said:

One thing I've noticed about Clan teams vs IS teams is that one of the major team advantages (as opposed to the individual advantages) the Clans have is that most of their mechs move at comparable speeds. This means that Clan teams tend to stick together even in pugs, as opposed to IS teams which get more spread out due to the speed differences for each weight class.

I've noticed this as well--with the IS the worst offenders are the lights. Due to their insane speeds relative to everyone else a lot of times they just freelance to the detriment of the team.

TheMadTypist, on 01 December 2014 - 04:05 PM, said:

I did some numbers on this awhile ago. It doesn't look great. When you bring in the further likely PGI factors, it seems pretty grim.

The Numbers We Know:

The gargoyle at stock brings 21.5 tons of gun and 422 points of armor, moving at 81 kph with 6 fixed heatsinks and a max of 8 hardpoints. Compare this to the Summoner, with 21 tons of gun at 422 points of armor, moving 81 kph with five fixed JJ, 4 fixed heatsinks, and 6 max hardpoints. Ignoring anything but these figures, the 'mechs seem roughly on par with the summoner having a mobility advantage in JJ's, while the Gargoyle-D has an advantage of 8 max hardpoints over the Summoner's six.

The Gargoyle can be increased to 460 points of armor with one ton of FF armor added on. This brings it to 20.5 tons of gun with 460 points of armor moving at 81 kph with six fixed heatsinks and a max of eight hardpoints. Compare this to the Timberwolf, with between 22.5 and 27.5 tons of gun (depending on JJ omnipods) wearing 460 points of armor moving at 81 kph with five fixed heatsinks and a max of 9 hardpoints without JJ or a max of 11 hardpoints with 4 JJ (or 10 with 5). The Timberwolf can enjoy a significant firepower advantage both in terms of tonnage and hardpoints, while potentially rocking a mobility advantage as well.

The gargoyle can support 20 points (~.5 ton) of armor above 460, bringing it to 480 total. This leaves it with 20 tons of gun, 480 points of armor, moving at 81kph with six fixed heatsinks and a max of eight hardpoints. Compare that as you will to the above examples.

The PGI Factors:

Here I move into the realm of guesswork based on previous behavior, you can stop here if you prefer just the numbers.

The gargoyle is an assault 'mech moving at 81 kph. Like the Dragon and Quickdraw before it, it moves fast enough that it will inevitably be punished for going too fast for its class by an increase in scale. I expect it will be closer in scale to the Banshee or Highlander than the Victor or Orion.

The increase in scale will likely have a direct impact on the size of hitboxes and the relative survivability. The 422 point Gargoyle now looks inferior to the similarly protected Summoner, because not only is it less maneuverable it will have a harder time making effective use of its armor. The 460 and possibly 480 point Gargoyles now have a survivability weakness in comparison to the Timberwolf, in addition to their previous weaknesses.

We must also consider that most of the armaments are mounted on the arms, and all weapons will be mounted at belt level. Shielding with the arms becomes less attractive when it means losing significant firepower, and the low mounts reduces survivability further on uneven terrain, where more of the 'mech must expose to fire.

Another point is that none of the wave 2 'mechs released thus far have had quirk bonuses significant enough to dramatically affect how it plays. It's likely the Gargoyle will have few or none.

Given these factors and the above numbers the gargoyle may suffer significant survivability issues and have difficulty competing with 5-10 ton lighter 'mechs that do not soak up an assault slot. It may well earn the nickname “Tinfoyl”. Primary uses will include removing the slow assault anchor from mobile teams, while cutting out significant firepower, and countering Clan envy of the mighty Wubshee.

...

Hell, I'll still drive it.

I plan on driving it as well even though it won't "min-max" like Warhawk, Dire Wolf, or Timber Wolf.

The two energy CT variant will probably be what I use the most.

[TheMadTypist]

Viktor Drake, on 01 December 2014 - 04:40 PM, said:

First, rarely do I ever use all my hardpoints and usually it does not make sense to do so anyway. Second, the Summoner has too major failing points.

One, lack of energy hardpoints which are the only options for lightweight firepower. ER MLs are 1 ton each and do not require ammo. By comparison the Summoner can mount only 4 energy weapons with the rest of the hardpoints being either ballistic or missile both of which require significant weight investments. Basically I would kill to be able to mount 2 more ER MLs on my Summoner as it would change what it is capable of by a large margin.

Second, it has 4 tons worth of relatively worthless JJs. If the JJs could be used tactically it would be one thing but they are barely able to really jump over anything higher than head shoulder height. An advantage yes, but not really much of one.

So when comparing to the Summoner, you first end up having significantly more usable hardpoints allowing you to significantly increase firepower by using lightweight medium lasers instead of ballistics or missiles.

Second, while they both have similar amounts of free tonnage, theoretically at least, the Gargoyle comes with 2 more heat sinks stock. That means you have two less heatsinks that you have to mount so technically unless your build uses less than 16 DHS (not likely) the Gargoyle has the equivalent of 2 additional tons available over the Summoner.

Third, your forgetting the extra mobility that comes with mounting a 400XL. I mention it above in a earlier post but the 400XL gives is maximum agiliy, acceleration, deceleration, torso twist, etc. Because of this there is actually a fair possibility that the Gargoyle might even be more agile than the Summoner.

Honestly, it is pretty obvious to me that aside from whatever limited mobility advantage the nerfed to hell Summoner jump jets give you, that the Gargoyle will clearly out class it.

I'll concede the hardpoints on the Gargoyle are superior due to their energy focus, but due to the energy heavy builds I don't think the extra two heatsinks will really be much of "two tons gained" as much as two tons you would equip anyway.

The engine on the gargoyle is a 400XL, yes, but the summoner has a 350 XL. For comparison, the twist rate for the Summoner on Smurfy is rated at 57deg/sec stock, and the 80t Pretty Baby is rated at 57deg/sec with a 400 rating engine. I don't believe that's going to offer a significant advantage, as the gargoyle is already heavier and will likely share the "Huge" movement archetype with the other "fast" assaults, like the Victor and Banshee. The summoner has Large, by comparison.

It may be comparable over flat terrain but any other sort of environment is going to favor the Summoner, especially with those JJ. I think you underestimate the value of the summoner's JJ, given it only sacrifices half a ton of firepower to bring them at comparable protection and will have more firepower and the JJ's if the Gargoyle goes for the armor advantage.

[SgtMagor]

its an 80ton scout/skirmisher, and that's how im using it. tweaked speed be around 89kph, it should be a good wingman for the slower assaults to cover their back and flanks.

[LT. HARDCASE]

I'm thinking it can be a Wubmaster, without the high mounted weapons, or the fragile XL engine.