148 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Ryche, on 02 December 2014 - 12:10 PM, said:

Of course it matters in the battle field. when it costs 45 million cbills just to unlock the elite skills for a timberwolf versus say 18 million cbills for a thunderbolt it does matter. you will see fewer clan mechs due to insane costs that are elited and mastered due to this which means IS chassis will be at an advantage in terms of skills unlocked.

no it just increases the gap between new players and experienced ones. Play long enough everyone has the expensive mechs that want it. Whether I spent twice as much on my DW than you did for your atlas doesn't matter when I am shooting you.

And the shear number of clan mechs on the field, especially pre quirks, totally disprove your theory, sorry.

Agent 0 Fortune, on 02 December 2014 - 12:09 PM, said:

I believe allowing an IS mech to survive torso destruction would make IS standard engines as worthless as single heatsinks. I think I would rather see some real penalties to Clan mechs that lose a torso.like half movement and massive extra heat.

it's a tradeoff of space, in many cases. Still cant pack an XL and AC20 in a ST. Or dual ballistics.

As of this moment, the gap between IS XL and Clan is too large.

Deathlike, on 02 December 2014 - 12:15 PM, said:

I'd have to honestly think about it.

The most likely result would actually generate more people to use IS XL engines, despite the penalties... since you can fit more stuff due to the tonnage savings.

You'd also buff mechs that are already XL friendly and not necessarily Lights, because a slow Light is a dead Light. I'm talking about Victors, Shadowhawks... and a whole host of other XL-friendly mechs.

Again, I'd have to think about it.

and it would need more input and testing. I am by no means saying...this is the idea, it's DONE! (In fact my OP says just that, lol).

The real idea is to get intelligent dialogue about how to close that gap for FPS balance sake, coming into CW.

Andi Nagasia, on 02 December 2014 - 12:19 PM, said:

but Bishop, you know whats coming in 3054 with the IS-Light-Engines,....
i fear that when it does come out Clan will be too Nerfed to Fight Back,

already touched on that above.

Barantor, on 02 December 2014 - 12:18 PM, said:

Aside from the Victor, I know a lot of folks leg those other mechs so it is kinda moot?

It would definitely benefit the assaults and some of the heavies that have the hardpoints but can't often use them due to the weight of a standard engine.

I think there needs to be a tradeoff though, like endo steel being bound to specific chassis.

and TBH it may not work as an idea. But again, something needs done, so lets see if people can propose intelligent counter ideas?

[SaltBeef]

I like your idea Bishop but when the torso gets blown off they shutdown and restart before penalized and only a speed penalty no heat penalty as the engine is now exposed to outside atmosphere.

[Ronan]

Personal opinion, the idea as described would "nerf" STD engines too much. I'm not sure the "gap" between IS and Clan XLs is that bad.

A bigger programming job I'd rather see is actual critical hits... 3 engine hits kill the engine, and actually track those. But that's a major overhaul.

[Brody319]

I would also be fine if we skipped a bit of time and allowed Light fusion engines for IS. just means we get the good stuff faster. like HAGs

[Curccu]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 December 2014 - 11:36 AM, said:

So, maybe it's been bandied about...and usually, I am mr TT guy.

That said, I can admit, there is an imbalance in IS XLs vs Clan ones.

So, a possible idea:

Instead of IS XL side torso loss equalling instant death, have it do similar to the clan ones, but with steeper penalties. Have the mech lose 25-40% speed (rough number, could be tweaked) and generate a base 15-25% heat on the heat bar.

The mech is still alive, but badly damaged--- also it makes CASE useful, as you will still lose the torso and take penalties, but by keeping damage from spreading, it has a place again on IS mechs.

Anyhow, just a not fully formed idea I have been tossing about my head this morning, thought I would get some input.

*engaging flame shield in.....3......2.......1......ENGAGED!*

OH MY GOD BISHOP you are the last one I thought would want to screw with the lore. That is awesome!

Edited by Curccu, 02 December 2014 - 12:53 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Brody319, on 02 December 2014 - 12:39 PM, said:

I would also be fine if we skipped a bit of time and allowed Light fusion engines for IS. just means we get the good stuff faster. like HAGs

we got the invasion first. Just accept that, lol.

[Brody319]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 December 2014 - 12:54 PM, said:

we got the invasion first. Just accept that, lol.

but I need bigger guns!

[Bishop Steiner]

Brody319, on 02 December 2014 - 12:56 PM, said:

but I need bigger guns!

that's what she said!

[Gyrok]

I would be more open to the introduction of light fusion engines early, as well as weapons and other such available items. However, there would be rules:

1.) Any mech carrying a light fusion engine(LFE) would be subject to omnimech construction rules. Any other customization available previously will be overridden to stock config + LFE, (would allow a DHS upgrade, but nothing beyond that from stock).

2.) All stock config non-weapons equipment would become hardlocked on the mech (i.e. JJs, BAP, etc.)

3.) Adding LFE to a chassis that does not contain one in stock config is a one time irreversible operation. The chassis must be returned to stock config (i.e. endo/ferro), and the LFE cannot be removed under any circumstance. It is now a part of the chassis which carries the engine.

If those are satisfactory, then I would be willing to see LFE tech in IS mechs with a requisite bump in weapons tech (to ~3060 for both sides).

Edited by Gyrok, 02 December 2014 - 01:06 PM.

[Brody319]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 December 2014 - 01:03 PM, said:

that's what she said!

Sounds like a domestic abuse problems. Don't be afraid to call the police.

[WarHippy]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 December 2014 - 11:36 AM, said:

So, maybe it's been bandied about...and usually, I am mr TT guy.

That said, I can admit, there is an imbalance in IS XLs vs Clan ones.

So, a possible idea:

Instead of IS XL side torso loss equalling instant death, have it do similar to the clan ones, but with steeper penalties. Have the mech lose 25-40% speed (rough number, could be tweaked) and generate a base 15-25% heat on the heat bar.

The mech is still alive, but badly damaged--- also it makes CASE useful, as you will still lose the torso and take penalties, but by keeping damage from spreading, it has a place again on IS mechs.

Anyhow, just a not fully formed idea I have been tossing about my head this morning, thought I would get some input.

*engaging flame shield in.....3......2.......1......ENGAGED!*

Personally I think the difference in engines is fine as is, but this certainly seems like a better alternative to nerfing the Clan engines even more. I'd be curious to see this tried out on the test server to see how it plays out.

[Bishop Steiner]

Gyrok, on 02 December 2014 - 01:05 PM, said:

I would be more open to the introduction of light fusion engines early, as well as weapons and other such available items. However, there would be rules:

1.) Any mech carrying a light fusion engine(LFE) would be subject to omnimech construction rules. Any other customization available previously will be overridden to stock config + LFE, (would allow a DHS upgrade, but nothing beyond that from stock).

2.) All stock config non-weapons equipment would become hardlocked on the mech (i.e. JJs, BAP, etc.)

3.) Adding LFE to a chassis that does not contain one in stock config is a one time irreversible operation. The chassis must be returned to stock config (i.e. endo/ferro), and the LFE cannot be removed under any circumstance. It is now a part of the chassis which carries the engine.

If those are satisfactory, then I would be willing to see LFE tech in IS mechs with a requisite bump in weapons tech (to ~3060 for both sides).

so, keep them inferior to clan mechs, got it.

[Water Bear]

Not a bad idea. Another possible fix is to make the benefit from IS XL greater. If they weighed even less, then you could pack more (typically lower quality) IS equipment on an IS XL chassis and go full glass-cannon.

[CDLord HHGD]

Neat idea but....

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

I'd rather the IS XL and Standard engines remain as they are.

However, PGI has thrown the timeline and lore out the window:
-We have the Timberwolf S, which IIRC, wasn't available until 3052
-We have the Enforcer ENF-5P which is a made up variant

So...

Why not just give us Light Fusion Engines? In 3053, Blackwell Industries created a working prototype.

But regardless, it would level the playing field better than quirks because instead of this VTR-9S 350XL or this VTR-9S 300Std build that gets thrashed by any brawler Timby (assuming equal pilot skill) we'd have a VTR-9S with a Light 325 (If I did my math right).

It'd be a massive boon to some mechs that are kinda 'meh' at the moment, like the Victors and Orions. It wouldn't negate the use of either XL engines in lights and certain mediums or the Standard engines in certain mediums, heavies, and assaults.

[SaltBeef]

As Is mechs become more omni , Light xls , omnimechs , they should have same penalties. If Clans get 2c mechs they shoulg get more customization ability. But Current Is Engines should fall between which is why I agree with Bishop. Torso on a xl equipped mech gets blown off the mech shuts down and restarts, (better elite it ) losses some speed, no added heat instead of instant death.

[Artgathan]

Do people not understand that Light Fusion Engine weigh 75% of an equivalent Standard Engine, while XL Engines wiegh only 50%?

IE: The Light Fusion Engine is heavier than an XL. It will not be the savior of the IS, though it will help increase their effectiveness. You will have to trade some equipment for the survivability. A LFE300 should weigh ~20 tons (using MW:O's weight system that rolls in the Gyro). A STD300 weighs 25, a XL300 15.5. Yes, LFEs will be a buff. They will be nowhere near as strong as Clan XLs.

OT: I'm worried that this change will invalidate STD engines (as others have said). XL Engines are already fairly ubiquitous on the field (even in IS mechs). If we're going to buff XLs, I'd suggest also giving some love to STD Engines (maybe a damage reduction or something?)

[Brody319]

Artgathan, on 02 December 2014 - 01:18 PM, said:

Do people not understand that Light Fusion Engine weigh 75% of an equivalent Standard Engine, while XL Engines wiegh only 50%?

IE: The Light Fusion Engine is heavier than an XL. It will not be the savior of the IS, though it will help increase their effectiveness. You will have to trade some equipment for the survivability. A LFE300 should weigh ~20 tons (using MW:O's weight system that rolls in the Gyro). A STD300 weighs 25, a XL300 15.5. Yes, LFEs will be a buff. They will be nowhere near as strong as Clan XLs.

OT: I'm worried that this change will invalidate STD engines (as others have said). XL Engines are already fairly ubiquitous on the field (even in IS mechs). If we're going to buff XLs, I'd suggest also giving some love to STD Engines (maybe a damage reduction or something?)

wouldn't the Light Fusion engine obsolete the Standard engine for almost every mech?

[Jack Avery]

On this particular subject I feel that Clan/IS balance isn't even a factor, don't even bring the Clans up. XL engine death was not designed with our aiming/convergence/hitbox system in mind. It isn't actually balance for it, and should never have been implemented as it was. I do agree that IS XL side-torso destruction should have some pretty steep penalties, but death should not be one of them. This is just a case were TT needs to be ignored a bit.

Barantor, on 02 December 2014 - 12:07 PM, said:

I would be fine with that, but the tradeoff would be that the IS would no longer get to put on or off endo steel structure. If the mech comes with it stock, it keeps it, but can't remove it and if it doesn't come with it, then you don't get it.

It nerfs the IS customization options, but to be honest those are way out of whack anyway.

While we are at it, fix the flamer.

If we could make IS ferro not suck as bad as it does, I'd be on board with that trade-off.

[Hillslam]

If you take away IS ability to put on FF and endo then you need to give the ability to change hardpoints.


Don't nerf the clan chassis's on a whole more. save it for their variant by variant quirk pass coming up.

+1 that IS XLs should not die on ST destruction. Double the clan XL penalty. Double and done.

That goes in line with the universe PGI has created: IS stuff weighs double and takes double space. So double the penalty.

But it shouldnt be death. Not with PP damage. Right now IS mechs remain at a serious disadvantage. The clan ST destruction penalty is not noticable in any way.

Edited by Hillslam, 02 December 2014 - 01:28 PM.