156 replies to this topic

[The Boz]

I don't think I've seen anyone calling for a nerf on the Nova or Mad Dog or Hellbringer or a global clan nerf....

[Kiblams]

It has most certainly been suggested before, but in order to blanace the game they can simply salvage the clan weapons and equipment and make it available to IS pilots.

That is a feature that was in all of the previous mech games to my knowledge, and to make them seem more rare simply bunk up the C-bills price of the clan stuff.

It won't completely even things out, but it would be enough I think.

[KuroNyra]

The Boz, on 04 December 2014 - 11:47 PM, said:

Damn, KuroNyra, your post is *hard* to read!

Sorry, I can have a hard time writting in English, especially at midnight. ^^'



Please point out where have I ever used the logic of "TBR is OP, so nerf NVA". I listed a reason why each Clam is where it's at, and I've also pointed out that their Lights suck in the current meta.

Basicly you are asking that because of 3 good ones to leave the rest like they are. Thus leaving them underperforming compared to others.



Cicada is good.

But not ruling his tier.




Hellbringer doesn't have low armor. High profile? OK, I'll give you that. Welcome to the Inner Sphere, where high profiles are where it's at. Yes, the Centurion is only fifty tons. Working as intended^TM.

Scalling has always been a problem. Most of the medium mech should have a much lower profil. But here it's PGI fault.



Nova: ...I don't get it. "I carry an entire 50 ton IS mech's worth of lasers in each arm, so heat is very difficult to manage, and that is a significant drawback." Drawback compared to what!? A mech that carries 2x the firepower is NOT uniquely penalized by 2x the heat! Now, if you had said that the speed is too low or that their profile is too wide or something, you might have had a point... Again, welcome to the Inner Sphere. Yes, the Hunchback is not expected to outrun the Vuctor.

I could have spoke about it, but since peoples talking about it usually also use that argument AND since you are placing it yourself, I did not have the necessity to to place it.
Take a Hunchback (variant boat laser.) And a Nova. Both of them have a similar loadout but the Hunchback won't have the problem of the low weapon placement where every hill is an ennemy. He won't have the problem of the longer duration of the laser, and will have less the problem of the Heat (IS Mech run much cooler than Clans mech, that alone should say enought about the conditions of the Clams)
The speed of the Nova is not too low. That's one thing who au contraire help him get out of bad situation. But the profil, you said it yourself.



Summoner: Again with the "Isn't T1, so it sucks" argument. A Jagermech outboating a Summoner sacrifices pretty much everything to do that. Reading comprehension, dude.

Since when a Jaeggermech need to "boat" something to kick the butt of a Summoner? Last time I checked my Firebrand was killing Summoner pretty much easely. And it's not like the dual AC/20 require great sacrifice. Heck you still have the place to put 4 small laser, and with the modules. Theses things can be pretty dangerous.



You'd have more chance speaking with actual arguments, instead of "no, they're not OP".

And I am the one with problem of comprehension? You refute all kind of argument because they does not suit you.


And the Inner Sphere is comprised solely of All Star Top Tier Hard Carry Ultimate Killpwnerers, right?
No, there is mech who are in need of rework to make them more efficient. But what is true for them is also true for most of the Clams. Summoner for example.

And yet another Clam pilot that likes the "I win because I'm better" ego-stroke of failing to understand the mechanics in question.
Problem with that argument? See? You refute it just because it doesn't suit YOU. Yes, the Clams player at the beginning were better because they were for most of them Veterans, they had bew mech who used new weapons never saw in the game. And unlike the others who could not use them, they had the opportunity to quickly understand how they worked and how to use them efficiently. And unlike the others, they knew how to deal with the new Clams because they knew ohow they worked.
Heck since the Direwolf is out for free, I have saw multiple comment in this forum stating that basicly "Since I use a Dire Wolf, they don't scare me anymore. I know theses things and how they work."
Problem is most of the guy whining won't even try doing that. "No I won't try that thing, it's OP!", even if that can help them understand how Clams work and all there drawback.


Last test was unannounced 3 hour solo queue only.

Ok. It was after the Quircks correct?



1. This is bullpuckey.
2. Higher skill ceilings with near-linear rewards is not balanced compared to lower skill ceiling.

Not sur I understand this one. Could you clarify?


What? Why should they be "highter efficienty" at all? Is piloting the Clam supposed to be Hard Mode, or fighting it? And where does it say this?

You should check what the dev say. They are multiple thread talking about it. Piloting the Clams are supposed to be harder. But making them more efficient if well used is also part of them. That was stated in a video. Maybe one of the Devblogs.

Yes there is 3 big guy for the Clams.
But the rest is not top tiering and rulling there weight class. Most of them are like some IS mech in need of rework because they are underperforming.
The goal is not to nerf mech who are doing good (exception for the ones doing TO well, but what is "to well", the answer change from player to player.)

Again, stating that others Clams mech are toptiers is pure lie. Some are doing ok. But none of them is on the top. Put a Hellbringer against a Thunderbolt, your Hellbringer will be history. Most people would rather use an IS Mech instead of a Clams. (Except for the ones who are die hard fans of the Clams, or guy not having the opportunity to use them before.)

Kiblams, on 05 December 2014 - 02:11 AM, said:

It has most certainly been suggested before, but in order to blanace the game they can simply salvage the clan weapons and equipment and make it available to IS pilots.

That is a feature that was in all of the previous mech games to my knowledge, and to make them seem more rare simply bunk up the C-bills price of the clan stuff.

It won't completely even things out, but it would be enough I think.

PGI stated it won't happen, for the moment.
Beside, it would completly destroy the so-called "advantage" of the Clams at this point. If you make it a both way.
You will see lots of Clams using IS weapons... And that should scare you.

Edited by KuroNyra, 05 December 2014 - 02:47 AM.

[Kmieciu]

3*STORMCROW + TIMBER WOLF = 240 tonnes.

Community Warfare is going to be pretty boring.

[Molossian Dog]

Kiblams, on 05 December 2014 - 02:11 AM, said:

It has most certainly been suggested before, but in order to blanace the game they can simply salvage the clan weapons and equipment and make it available to IS pilots.

That is a feature that was in all of the previous mech games to my knowledge, and to make them seem more rare simply bunk up the C-bills price of the clan stuff.

It won't completely even things out, but it would be enough I think.

That would be a horrible mistake. Mixed tech opens the gates of hell when it comes to min-/maxing and metabuilds.

At that point you could actually just scrap the idea to bring in new players in. It is hard enough as it is as a new player.

Against mixed tech Frankenmechs? People would just throw the towel after a few days.

That would be worse than just accepting that every player is going to be piloting clan stuff as soon as he can afford it. We have all seen games degenerate that way.

Edited by Molossian Dog, 05 December 2014 - 03:01 AM.

[kapusta11]

There are two ways to look at mech balance. One being potential firepower and the other survivability. The former is pretty much straightforward with only exception of lack of hardpoints (less than 6 energy for Clans), the latter is combination of hitbox size, speed, jump capability, armor values etc.

Firepower wise clans are OP, more specifically, Clan laser weaponry is OP (CERLL kinda suck though). Survivability is individual for each mech whether it's Clan or IS. Yes, Nova sucks, but it sucks because of, probably, the worst geometry in the game, it's way too wide and way too slow for a medium. Summener has enormous hitboxes AND lacks energy hardpoints, Adder is slow AND lacks energy hardpoints, same goes for Kit Fox, Mist Lynx and Ice Ferret are fast but both lack energy hardpoints, 8 ERSL would be godly for example. No one would complain about Clans if IS had acces to 50 damage laser alphas for their medium and heavy mechs or 50 laser AND 30 FLD for their assaults.

[Walluh]

Absolute no to salvaging. You will see everyone min-maxing with IS ACs and clan lasers, completely obliterating anyone who hasn't played long enough to salvage enough stuff, and balance will FLY out the window at the speed of light, unable to ever return.

[Grantham Besat]

You allow mixxed tech and you will hate life. Is ultra 5 mounted 4 times on a dire whale backed by clan erml. Oo look a wubunder with clan med pulse. o snap that that fire starter has clan lasers.

[The Boz]

KuroNyra, on 05 December 2014 - 02:45 AM, said:

Words.

Can't be bothered to quote, so numbers it is.
1. No. I am not. Where did you get that impression?
2. The Cicada is good. Not ruling its tier? Yeah. OK. Back to the "It's not the Tier Zero Most Best World Killer Oneshot tier, so it sucks" argument...
3. Scaling has always been a problem. And it still is. But don't act like it has no effect on balance.
4. The Hunchback 4P and 4J bring only 75 and 50% of the firepower a Nova can bring, respectively. And when they do so in a way that is both hot and slow.
5. IS mechs don't run cooler than Clams. Why do people keep bringing this up? Clan energy weapons are lighter and sometimes smaller, meaning you can fit more of the smaller heat sinks, and the ~20% increase in heat is compensated for by the ~20% increase in damage output. Beam duration? Range. C-LPL is the single red-headed stepchild here, unloved and unwanted.
6. Since when does any mech need to be better than any other mech in order to beat it once in a completely uncontrolled scenario with undisclosed details? And is this again the old "Summoner can't beat everything so it's weak" argument?
7. I refute arguments with facts and numbers. All I get in response are feels and opinions.
8. Most of the clans? MOST!? Let's see. The Clams so far are Mist Lynx, Kit Fox, Adder, Ice Ferret, Nova, Stormcrow, Mad Dog, Hellbringer, Summoner, Timber Wolf, Warhawk, Dire Wolf. 12 mechs total. Most need help, you say?
9. I refute the Elo argument because it is based on faulty reasoning. Player plays strong mech. Player's Elo inflates thanks to strong Clan mech. Player and mech prove that together their Elo is higher than an IS player. Clan players stop asking questions at this point, content that they are "the good players" in this game.
10. Yep, with a 64% wins going Clan. Average Elo spread of the matches was +100 for the Clans. I wonder why that is... NOTE: Each player has four Elo values, one for each mech weight class.
11. It's not a balanced game if both players have almost the same tools at their disposal, but one player has the added option of "using the tools better" while the other does not. The player with that option will win much more often.
12. I am. I've found no mention of "Clams are supposed to be harder to pilot."
13. After the big three, Clams populate the upper tiers (assuming the five-tier system used for the quirk pass). Only the Light Clams are tier 3 or lower. Out of five tiers, the "upper two" are "top tier". The Hellbringer can almost reach the Thunderbolt beamspam levels, but beats it in range, mobility, and utility. Both mechs are "top tier". It is OK if one top tier mech can beat another in a straight up fight. Otherwise we'd have a hundred tiers.

[KuroNyra]

Really pointless to talk with you, you understand nothing.

Since for you something not top tier suck.
Ho well, I am not surprised.

[The Boz]

KuroNyra, on 05 December 2014 - 03:47 AM, said:

Since for you something not top tier suck.

Wait... what? Is this what you gathered from my post?

[KuroNyra]

The Boz, on 05 December 2014 - 04:03 AM, said:

Wait... what? Is this what you gathered from my post?

Basicly for you if I say something is not top tier. It suck, no.I did not say that. But you are always making it sound like.
Since you can't get that single fact in your mind. I suppose it's whats you think.

Take the Locust, that thing was before one of the "worst" mech in the game. Yet since the quircks, it is a bit more easy to use. Not the best, still with the worst, but not complete garbage.
Is it top tier? Nope, does it suck? Nope.

That goes too for some of the Clams, but not all of them.
Some of them are average, but not top tier. Do they suck? No, are they the best of there weight class? No.

Ok? You get it now? Or am I still saying for you that anything who doesn't not rule there wright class suck?

[The Boz]

You specifically listed the mechs (Summoner, Nova, etc.) as "needing help". Things that suck need help. Things that are average don't need help. Things that are above average need nerfs.

[KuroNyra]

The Boz, on 05 December 2014 - 04:19 AM, said:

You specifically listed the mechs (Summoner, Nova, etc.) as "needing help". Things that suck need help. Things that are average don't need help. Things that are above average need nerfs.

No. Things that are average still need help, the goal is to make every mech reaching the top tier, to make them all viable against eachother.
To reduce the difference.

Nerf will only create more problems than it will solve. Heck nerf have always been what killed mech. Remember the Dragon Slayer? The jumpjets? It's the nerf who killed them. Yet people like you want to repeat the sames mistakes over and over again.

No matter the Free-To-Play, Nerfs always had created more problem.

[The Boz]

Endless cycles of buffing and rebuffing creates power creep and shifts gameplay. Let's say if you have a set of numbers, 4, 5, 4, 6, 5, 3, 5, 5, 8, 6, 9, 5, 8. What series of mathematical operations would bring these numbers closer in line with each other in the most simple and elegant way possible?
And this is before we bring in TTK. Let's say the inverse of a given number is the amount of seconds (or let's multiply it by ten, just for fun) needed for that number to "kill" another number. Where do you want to place that time?

[Willard Phule]

TamerSA, on 03 December 2014 - 11:52 PM, said:

Ok, before you jump on me I want to state that this is a very honest and serious question coming from a below average player who doesn't bother to number crunch or meta.

Even with all of my noobness, simply observing and experiencing the game itself makes me wonder why there is such an outcry to nerf Clans or make teams 12 v 10 or whatever the latest trend is.

There are really only a handful of good Clan mechs. To my account the Dire Wolf and Timber Wolf are the most notable of those mechs. The rest are basically outperformed by an IS same weight variant.

Clan ballistics feel sub-par compared to most IS equivalents. Again, I am not a good player at all, however I immediately notice the difference in impact between carrying an IS AC20 vs a Clan AC20. There is simply more of a punch.

Finally, so far all of the Wave 2 Clan mechs have been negligible in this debate. Even the Hellbringer (which I love) only brings ECM in a heavy to the table. The hitboxes make me think of the old Awesome school bus debate. There is a lot of CT on it to hit.

So now my question again is honestly... why the witch hunt on Clan mechs? If anything, I feel they have been down-balanced from their lore glory to the point where they equal IS mechs instead of surpass them. Which I understand is needed for an online real-time game that is not governed by TT engagement rules.

In my experience, which is the Solo Queue exclusively, the main reason people cry about the Clans is the fact that they were "pay to have an advantage until they come out for cbills." At least, that's where the whining began.

At that time, MOST of the people buying Clan packages were experienced players....you didn't see a whole lot of LRM Dire Wolves or that kind of crap.

As soon as they started releasing them for cbills, people cried and Paul beat everything to death with his football bat.

Personally, I could give a crap. I sold off 80% of my IS mechs because they're useless and I prefer to play the Clans anyway. Odds are good that the Clans will be beaten soundly when CW is released, which will set off a whole other round of whining.

Eventually, either Paul will beat the IS weapons into submission or they'll reverse some of their nonsense nerfs to the Clans. Or....they won't do crap, this game will go downhill fast and we'll all be back to reinstalling MW4 soon.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Kmieciu, on 05 December 2014 - 02:51 AM, said:

3*STORMCROW + TIMBER WOLF = 240 tonnes.

Community Warfare is going to be pretty boring.

Umm yeah, CW is MWO Clan wars, where only a select few of the hundreds of mechs in this game will be used.

[KuroNyra]

LordKnightFandragon, on 05 December 2014 - 05:11 AM, said:

Umm yeah, CW is MWO Clan wars, where only a select few of the hundreds of mechs in this game will be used.

Well, contrary to WoT. There isn't really the system of tiers. Here, a "Tier V" 'mech can destroy a Tier "I" 'Mech, sur it require skill and a good situation. But in WoT. You would never see a Leichtracktor

that thing


destroying that thing.




Beside, who know. Maybe there will be some weight restrictrion at some occasion or for "littles planets"? Or a restriction of chassis depending on the world attacked/defended?

[Butane9000]

Joseph Mallan, on 04 December 2014 - 07:21 AM, said:

I hated that restriction from back in whatever MW game it was that used that system. All that empty space in teh side torso and nothing can be put there but a Laser? Nope Nope Nope Nope.

I can definitely see that argument. But it depends on the variants. I have a picture of the DD where half the side torsos are taken up with energy slots for those 2 energy hard points. Again the idea is to both be restricting while individualizing each variant for different roles. Much like the quirk system currently.

[Jonny Taco]

Desolator, on 04 December 2014 - 12:02 AM, said:

Because people are bad players, poor sports, and just want everything to be handed to them.

This sums up the mwo community perfectly.