19 replies to this topic

[Darian DelFord]

Question if we change how the Dorrito Chip functions, ie instant targeting, would it help the game over all?

Personally I think it would, starting with the lights. However what would be a good way to make it appear? have your Target Reticule over it for a second or two, or within a couple of centimeters of your reticle?
I really think that if we fix the instant accrual of targets the TTK will be increased.

Thoughts?

[Gauvan]

Sorry, I'm not 100% sure what you are asking.

I do think changing targeting time and target decay for lights would help their survivability, which for many lights is pretty low.

There are a couple general Dorito changes I would like to see. One is different Dorito shapes for turrets so you can distinguish them from your teammates in matches. The second is an accessibility issue for color blind players--if they can't let you customize the Dorito colors for accessibility then I'd like to see a different Dorito shape for opponents.

[MoonfireSpam]

The dorito is mega uber strong.

Mostly punishes fast, agile, small mechs. Since low profile counts for nothing with the instand Dorito over your head.

Wouild love to see an increase in time to be Doritoed based on mech weight and/or movement speed.

[Darian DelFord]

Gauvan, on 04 December 2014 - 05:45 PM, said:

Sorry, I'm not 100% sure what you are asking.

I do think changing targeting time and target decay for lights would help their survivability, which for many lights is pretty low.

There are a couple general Dorito changes I would like to see. One is different Dorito shapes for turrets so you can distinguish them from your teammates in matches. The second is an accessibility issue for color blind players--if they can't let you customize the Dorito colors for accessibility then I'd like to see a different Dorito shape for opponents.

Right now if you appear in the FoV on the enemy you have an instant chip above you, which makes scouting pointless if your in a NON ecm Mech. Even in an ECM mech, its perilous at best. Adjusting how the chip is acquired I think will help the game in the long run,.

Your idea about different shapes would be great, I would go a step further and put shapes towards the type of chassis the mech is :>

[Monkey Lover]

It needs to be cut back on. I should not be able to target a mech inside trees I cant even see. The time to share locks needs increase by a few seconds.

[Gauvan]

Ah, thanks. I need to think about that a bit, but my first impression is that it would be a bit too powerful when adequate cover is available. I do think most lights are currently too squishy, though.

Currently, the base targeting range is 800m for all mechs. Perhaps it should be reduced a bit for lights to promote scouting and survivability.

Also, has any calculated the minimum lock time currently possible in the game with all boosts?

[Artgathan]

I think sensors in general could use some work.

Putting a delay on the appearance of the Dorito (possibly based on mech weight) would certainly help improve MW:O's tactical movement options. Making it interact with Modules / Equipment would be even more interesting (in the vein of how BAP / Command Console / Target Info Gathering get you the target's information faster, equipment/modules could make the Dorito appear faster against mechs in LOS).

Speaking of Target Information Gathering - I recently checked out how Target Information Gathering Works. Please excuse my cross-posting, but I think it's relevant since we're discussing sensors:

Quote

Firstly, the speed at which you gain information about a target is dictated by the range from the target. However this relationship is not linear: it's a set of three hard range bands (the times given here are for unmodified sensors):

• > 500 m takes 5 seconds to gather info
  
• 500 - 100 m takes 3.5 seconds to gather info
  
• < 100 m takes ~1 - 1.5 second to gather info (I couldn't dial this value in using my stopwatch)

This means that if I'm standing 500m or more from a mech, it will take 5 seconds from the instant I push the 'R' key until I get to see the paperdoll with the mech's loadout in the upper-right corner of the screen. If I'm between 500 and 100 meters, this takes 3.5 seconds. Less than 100 meters and it takes ~1.5 seconds.


These times are then modified by the various pieces of EWAR Equipment (IE: BAP will decrease these times, while ECM increases them).

What I noticed was that the Range Bands never changed. For instance, I expected that when I mounted a BAP, I would get the 3.5 second gathering (which would be ~2.63 seconds with BAP), from a distance of ~625m (since BAP extends sensor range by 25%). However this was not the case - BAP still used the same range bands (>500, 500 - 100, <100) as the basic sensors.

I think it would be interesting for equipment (and modules) that affect Sensor Range to also affect the ranges involved in Target Information Gathering. This would make the battlefield a little bit more dynamic, and allow for increased scouting roles since scouts (that mounted BAP, CC or the Adv. Sensor Module) would gather information faster from longer ranges.

For instance, a mech carrying the Adv. Sensor Module (and nothing else) would gather information in 3.5 seconds @ 625 meters, whereas a mech with nothing would gather information in 3.5 seconds @ 500 meters.

Information Warfare can be improved so much with so little!

[FETTY WAP]

I agree that it should be changed. It adds a twitch-factor to the game when all you do is peek over a hill and spam R to immediately find where the enemy is (if visible).

[Agent 0 Fortune]

Not a fan these kinds of changes favor players who lower video setting and increase gamma to ignore environmental effects. I would much rather play the game with all the visual effects enabled and have the auto target enabled than play it wall hack style.
However I would consider solutions that encompass an overall review of information warfare (ECM etc).

[Kilo 40]

Darian DelFord, on 04 December 2014 - 05:56 PM, said:

Right now if you appear in the FoV on the enemy you have an instant chip above you, which makes scouting pointless if your in a NON ecm Mech.

LOS is OP.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

I wish radar in this game would work like, well, radar...

[Gauvan]

One problem with a Dorito delay would be that you could use regular intervening terrain, like buildings, to potentially make yourself immune to targeting. Poptarting could potentially work too. I'm not sure how to balance that.

One of the balance challenges we have now is due to maps. Do you think the problem is less of an issue on newer maps with better use of line-of-sight blocking terrain?

Artgathan, on 04 December 2014 - 06:10 PM, said:

Speaking of Target Information Gathering - I recently checked out how Target Information Gathering Works. Please excuse my cross-posting, but I think it's relevant since we're discussing sensors:

Information Warfare can be improved so much with so little!

That's interesting info--could I please get a link to the original post?

Edited by Gauvan, 04 December 2014 - 06:36 PM.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Check out this thread: It goes into great detail about the topic at hand as something I'd love to see in MWO.

[Artgathan]

Gauvan, on 04 December 2014 - 06:35 PM, said:

One problem with a Dorito delay would be that you could use regular intervening terrain, like buildings, to potentially make yourself immune to targeting. Poptarting could potentially work too. I'm not sure how to balance that.

One of the balance challenges we have now is due to maps. Do you think the problem is less of an issue on newer maps with better use of line-of-sight blocking terrain?

That's interesting info--could I please get a link to the original post?

Here's the link: http://mwomercs.com/...16#entry3957316

(I copy/pasted the entire OP except for the introductory paragraph - the thread isn't very long, and there's not much useful discussion. Mostly people going "that is a good idea").

As to your points about making it time-based: I think you have a valid point that it could potentially make some mechs "untargettable" by "abusing" (or strategically using, depending on your view) terrain. There are ways to adjust the system to prevent this though (such as by making larger mechs have less delay, and offering up equipment/modules to reduce the time it takes to get the Dorito). Another way to interact with it would be to make the time it takes to get the Dorito be dependent upon where the target is located relative to your mech's axis of travel (for instance, if I come around the corner and stare directly at something I get the Dorito on it instantly, but if something appears on the outside edges of my sensors I don't get the Dorito right away).

A point to consider is that changes to the way the Dorito functions also interacts with LRMs. I would be angry if I came around a corner and had to wait extra time to get a lock on a target I was facing because I had to wait for the Dorito on top of the normal locking time.

[SaltBeef]

I almost got smoked by a Enemy Hellbringer this AM because of the Dorito bug , ( The Flavor stands alone ) issue in the past. We were on tourmaline lots of blue doritos , behind me I am taking fire from behind and thinking Oh no!!, I am Dorito , bugged and getting shot because of it. I turn around to look and see a sea of blue doritos, but slightly above them on the terrain was a enemy Hellbringer with no Dorito because of the ECM I am thinking nobody sees this guy or he is a team member with the Dorito' bug until he layed a arty smoke near me I knew he was Enemy!,.. he did not get me though. Dorito's bug caused me to 2nd guess my target.

Edited by SaltBeef, 04 December 2014 - 08:47 PM.

[Triordinant]

Let the chips fall where they may.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Id love a bag of doritos please and thank you

[That Guy]

i am hoping the PGI will put in sensor quirks at some point. IE, mechs have different sensor ranges, powers, detectabilities, and arcs etc.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Assuming that electronic warfare otherwise remains largely unchanged, then the current system for "dorrito chips" is fine.

That said, ewar needs a complete rework anyway, and doing so would give PGI the opportunity to tweak how some of the more basic functions (like the "dorrito chip") function. I'd love to see a more complicated and in-depth detection algorithm based on things like sensor state (active/passive), extra signals (BAP/ECM), target size (base in on movement profiles, or on weight class, or on some extra measure based on relative model size), terrain (clear, rolling, sharp [hard angles are harder for the sensors to compensate for]), etc.

My ideal for a scout that wants to avoid detection would be to have it be a small light (tiny sensor profile) running in passive sensor mode (lower active emissions) without BAP or ECM (so no extra emissions) manuevering amongst buildings or rocks. Such a mech should be very hard for enemy sensors to detect, since it's basically running in silent mode (no emissions besides whatever heat it generates by walking/running) and has a low sensor profile obscured by highly interfering terrain.

ECM would no longer be an invisibility shield, since after all it's transmitting a huge amount of energy (that's how ECM works), making it light up your sensors like a christmas tree from quite a distance (easier to detect even outside its effective jamming range). Instead, ECM would be an active countermeasure to certain enemy systems (you'd use it to scramble enemy BAP in an urban battle, or to make enemy LRMs harder to use [but it should not make them impossible to use]). BAP would be an active sensor system used for close-in omni-directional line-of-sight-independent detection, ideal for very rough terrain and urban settings but not great for open field engagements.

All of this would make your sensor state a matter of tactics, as well as your choice of terrain, and whether you want to have your ECM or BAP turned on or off at a given moment. It'd open up a huge number of refined tactical options both to individuals and to teams, while reducing or eliminating many of the issues that have plagued MWO for quite some time (ECM invisibility mode being the big one).

As for target sharing, I'd be happy to change LRM indirect fire into a grid-based weapon, with TAG and NARC being necessary for teammates without line of sight to target somebody. To replace the "dorrito chip" triangles for scouts flagging a target, have a hot key that pings the battlegrid and the radar minimaps of your team to say that you see hostiles there.

As for the hollow "dorrito chip" showing up when a mech appears on your sensors, it'd be fine to keep it the way it is if all the aforementioned changes were made. An Atlas running an ECM and with active sensors walking in the open would show up at extreme range (maybe over a kilometer or two away), while a Jenner in passive mode without any extra emission sources hiding in some rocks would have the "dorrito chip" appear only once you got quite close (maybe even well inside BAP range, which would encourage people to bring BAP for just those occasions, since a BAP would see everything inside its radius, unless hostile ECM were present to jam it).

[Darian DelFord]

Most people I have talked to in my unit as well as other forums including this one agree that the current acquisition of the chip needs to be changed/redone. I like many of your ideas there Levi, and I think it would add a depth that we do not have. Of course CW is the priority and rightly so, however in time this would be a good change I think.