99 replies to this topic

[GDL Germ]

The dragon is terrible. Talking from experience, better be ready to drop HS and armor so you have enough ammo to last a match.

[Ubertron X]

My Ostsol will laugh at your Dragon and my Thunderbolt will rip it apart before it even knew what happened...

Edited by Ubertron X, 26 June 2012 - 01:30 PM.

[Bloodweaver]

Voyager I, on 26 June 2012 - 01:20 PM, said:

As a fire support mech, the Dragon is undergunned compared to rivals like the Catapult. It might make a decent skirmisher, but only against opponents that don't have any means to hit back. It's not terribly optimized for the role. To be honest, the low-caliber ACs tend to underperform for their weight in general.

A Dragon can choose whether or not the Catapult even gets to fire. It can stay out of range entirely, or it can stay just far away enough to make the Catapult waste its ammo, or it can get within the LRMs' minimum range and run circles around the Catapult, tearing up its rear armor. Now, the Catapult is a fine Mech. Just like the Centurion. But it is made for a specific role. Without spotters, it loses a lot of its power. The advantage the Dragon has over nearly ever other Mech is that it is self-sufficient due to its variety of advantages. This is why a lance of nothing but Dragons is better than a lance of nothing but Catapults - if forced to rely on LoS targeting, a Catapult is at the mercy of the terrain. Now, a lance that INCLUDES Catapults, along with scout Mechs, will obviously fare much better.

Voyager I, on 26 June 2012 - 01:20 PM, said:

My beef with the stock Cicada is that it's overspecialized. This mech does nothing but run fast and look at things. The Commando and Jenner can do that while also packing enough firepower to put dents in the rear armor of distracted opponents and even threaten enemies that aren't designed to deal with enemies up close, like a Trebuchet or Catapult (hell, maybe even a Dragon). The Raven has basically ever e-war upgrade you could ask for and a handy Narc beacon to spot for your enemies...

My problem with the Cicada isn't that it can't scout, because it definitely can. It's just that, going by its base variant, every other scout mech we have can do the same thing while offering something else desirable.

Commando and Jenner? HA! A Cicada will leave those fools biting the dust from its ankles as it runs off LOLing while the Catapult or Trebuchet a few hills over rains DEATH from its left arm and PAIN from its right! And like I said, those two medium lasers and one small laser... That may not seem like a lot to you, but to a Locust, Firefly, or Jenner, it's definitely something to watch out for. There is no point in having bigger guns, because your speed invalidates all but the lightest of enemies. The Raven is a definite competitor for "best scout", I will admit that - but it is SLOW(relatively speaking). There's a trade-off. A scout that "offers something else desirable" does so at the expense of its scouting ability. Cicada scouts by speed, Raven scouts by infowar.

You seem to be too hung up on the way combat worked in other MW games... Hell, in almost all other action-oriented videogames. Mechs in MW:O are not meant to operate independently of each other. There are no single-player missions, where you're either alone or have one or two lancemates who seem to have worse AI than the enemy's You're going to be on a team, so none of the Mechs outclass each other. They have roles. Admittedly, the Dragon is an exception to this rule - which is why it's best used en masse, its numbers provide the force multiplier. as opposed to the usual multi-role nature of a Mech lance.

[Endo Steel]

Voyager I, on 26 June 2012 - 01:20 PM, said:

To be honest, the low-caliber ACs tend to underperform for their weight in general.

This right here sums up my thoughts.

In the tabletop, you can sometimes score some decent hits but in Mechwarrior games there is no room for a rapid-fire long range gun. If the battle is urban and forces short ranges, you want a high-caliber AC to throw off the enemy's aim and then you hide for a while. If the battle allows for long-range fighting, you want heavy hitters like Gauss rifles for the exact same reason. In fact, in MW4 rapid-fire weapons in general are not competitive with slow-fire weapons.

On paper they look fine, but in practice their DPS/ton needs to be almost double that of a slow-fire weapon since a skilled opponent only exposes himself for a short time when firing.

Edited by Endo Steel, 26 June 2012 - 01:44 PM.

[Bloodweaver]

Narcissistic Martyr, on 26 June 2012 - 01:22 PM, said:

Besides the better stock variants, the classic 3025 verison is good because it's fast enough to dictate the range such that anything slower than it and lacks serious long range fire power is in trouble and has enough armor and long range weapons such that anything faster than it is going to have some trouble taking it down due to the barage of LRMs and autocannon fire on the way in softening them up or poking holes in them and difficulty of penetrating the decent armor with puny weapons.

Exactly... It's a Mech that exists in a sort of middle path, designed under the "it can outgun anything it can't outrun" adage. It can wear down brawler Mechs, shred light Mechs, and negate long-range Mechs. It's a good design, but it takes a LOT of situational awareness to use effectively.

[Sierra19]

I agree the stock Banshee (BNC-3E) is the absolute worst assault mech. One PPC, one AC5, and a small laser. ON AN ASSAULT MECH FOR PETE'S SAKE! Which is why it'll probably never make it into the game, because it's primary purpose was to run up and punch/kick other mechs, but it is outclassed every other assault mech, and quite a few heavy mechs too, until they figure out a way to implement physical attacks. Now, some of the other variants aren't too bad, so if they start with one of those, it wouldn't be nearly as bad.
The stock Charger isn't all that great either.

Edited by Sierra19, 26 June 2012 - 01:58 PM.

[Bloodweaver]

Endo Steel, on 26 June 2012 - 01:43 PM, said:

In the tabletop, you can sometimes score some decent hits but in Mechwarrior games there is no room for a rapid-fire long range gun. If the battle is urban and forces short ranges, you want a high-caliber AC to throw off the enemy's aim and then you hide for a while. If the battle allows for long-range fighting, you want heavy hitters like Gauss rifles for the exact same reason. In fact, in MW4 rapid-fire weapons in general are not competitive with slow-fire weapons.

On paper they look fine, but in practice their DPS/ton needs to be almost double that of a slow-fire weapon since a skilled opponent only exposes himself for a short time when firing.

MW4 was terrible in many ways, and the implementation of ACs was not the least of them. Hell, that game made ALL small-caliber weapons useless - SRM-2s, small lasers, machine guns, all jokes. The AC/2, though, COULD be very useful... if you had several of them mounted, as in the MekTek expansion's Deimos. Then you could plink away at range and keep the enemy from getting a lock due to his cockpit getting jostled by bullets. Using gauss rifles or PPCs would do the same, but because they were slow-firing the enemy would get a lock on you eventually - the multi-AC/2 setup allowed you to throw his aim off continuously. Otherwise, yeah, worthless.

MW3's implementation of ACs, on the other hand, was just about perfect. They became really scary in that game. The only problem with the AC/2 in it was the shells' travel time was too long.

And in MW2, you'd always run out of ammo within a few seconds anyway

[Voyager I]

Bloodweaver, on 26 June 2012 - 01:38 PM, said:

You seem to be too hung up on the way combat worked in other MW games... Hell, in almost all other action-oriented videogames. Mechs in MW:O are not meant to operate independently of each other. There are no single-player missions, where you're either alone or have one or two lancemates who seem to have worse AI than the enemy's You're going to be on a team, so none of the Mechs outclass each other. They have roles. Admittedly, the Dragon is an exception to this rule - which is why it's best used en masse, its numbers provide the force multiplier. as opposed to the usual multi-role nature of a Mech lance.

The default Dragon is successful only in the specific circumstance of dueling opponents who are slower and have worse long-ranged capabilities than it does. If terrain becomes a factor, the Dragon is liable to become less effective if enemies don't give it clear shots without closing distance. In larger battles, the Dragon loses its place, since it doesn't have the damage output of a proper fire support mech but still isn't designed to close into the melee or hunt down vulnerable opponents (this is assuming a stock model, of course; one refitted for close quarters could make itself the terror of the enemy's backline). They integrate poorly into a combined-arms unit, and as a strategy to themselves are countered quite handily by just carrying a decent long-ranged loadout (one AC/5 and one LRM 10 still doesn't make for a frightening payload.

The Cicada is similarly lacking in team contribution. That's it's problem. It's faster than it needs to be, and in reaching that point has sacrificed its ability to do anything but be fast. The Commando and Jenner are both slower than the Cicada, but still fast enough to perform effective reconnaissance against enemy combat lances while also carrying enough firepower to contribute meaningful damage to fights outside their weight class. The Raven is significantly slower for only a marginal increase in firepower, but carries its phenomenal electronics package and the excellent Narc beacon.

[KitK]

Voyager I, on 26 June 2012 - 12:45 PM, said:

I'm sure it [Cicada) carries plenty more armor to make up for it (the tons have to go somewhere)

Very bad assumption. A bit more internal structure, yes. Armor - NO

40 Cicada 2A - 4 tons
20 Locust IV (same speed) - 4 tons
25 Commando 2D - 4 tons
25 Mongoose (same speed) 5.5 tons
30 Urbanmech R60 - 6 tons!
30 Javalin 10N - 4 tons
35 Jenner 7D - 4 tons
35 Raven 1X - 4 tons
35 Raven 3L - 4.5 tons ferro-fibrous
40 Assassin - 4.5 tons

The thing is there is a certain point where an engine gets so heavy that lighter mechs can do the same job just as well or better for less C-bills. The Cicada, Dragon, and Charger are cases in point.

[Ubertron X]

Though the Dragon might not be the worst mech out there it surely does not have the potential Bloodweaver is attributing to it. A Griffin will beat it in range combat any day, and a Wolverine in melee and both mechs are even 5 tons lighter. Ostroc as well as Ostsol are far superior mechs too, leaving only Quickdraw and Rifleman to fall behind. And any 65 tons mech apart from the Jaegermech will blow it to pieces as well, be it Catapult, Crusader or Thunderbolt.

Having said so, my worst stock variants are the stylish but unfortunate Shadow Hawk and the dread Jaegermech.

[Bloodweaver]

Voyager I, on 26 June 2012 - 01:56 PM, said:

The default Dragon is successful only in the specific circumstance of dueling opponents who are slower and have worse long-ranged capabilities than it does.

Nope. It's successful when dueling opponents who are slower, OR who have worse long-range capability. Which is the vast majority of Mechs. One-on-one, it can easily eliminate a Centurion. That was your original example of an opponent that outclasses it, and it fits the description you gave here of an opponent who is BOTH slower and worse at range. Unless the Centurion's pilot is better than the Dragon's, the fight won't even be close. Now, a Catapult is slower but has better long-range firepower. And it will definitely be more of a challenge. But even so, it will not win EASILY. It may very well lose. For every disadvantage the Dragon possesses, it has two advantages to compensate. Range, speed, or armor. The only sacrifice is in outright firepower. But, AGAIN, because its firepower is capable, and is so at all ranges, a lance of Dragons is a force to be reckoned with.

Voyager I, on 26 June 2012 - 01:56 PM, said:

If terrain becomes a factor, the Dragon is liable to become less effective if enemies don't give it clear shots without closing distance.

This is irrelevant, because it applies equally to all other Mechs as well. Actually, strike that - it applies even MORE so to Mechs like the Catapult, which need to achieve lock-on in order to use the majority of their firepower. A Dragon does not need this - as soon as it sees that Catapult rounding a corner, BAM, autocannon shell to the FACE, and then zip off before the Cat can achieve lock. It doesn't even need to get into medium laser range. And even if it does do that, it can move around the Catapult because it is more mobile. Wash, rinse, repeat.

Voyager I, on 26 June 2012 - 01:56 PM, said:

In larger battles, the Dragon loses its place... They integrate poorly into a combined-arms unit, and as a strategy to themselves are countered quite handily by just carrying a decent long-ranged loadout (one AC/5 and one LRM 10 still doesn't make for a frightening payload.

Yup, already pointed this out. The Dragon isn't really meant to be part of a combined-arms unit. It IS its own combined-arms - that's why it carries long range, medium-range, and short-range weaponry. None of which is impressive on its own, but when grouped together in multiples -the way it's meant to be- it becomes a versatile force that can bring decent firepower, at ANY range, with good speed, and enough armor to survive the engagement. The only outright weakness in a lance of Dragons is the lack of jump jets.

Voyager I, on 26 June 2012 - 01:56 PM, said:

The Cicada is similarly lacking in team contribution. That's it's problem. It's faster than it needs to be, and in reaching that point has sacrificed its ability to do anything but be fast. The Commando and Jenner are both slower than the Cicada, but still fast enough to perform effective reconnaissance against enemy combat lances while also carrying enough firepower to contribute meaningful damage to fights outside their weight class. The Raven is significantly slower for only a marginal increase in firepower, but carries its phenomenal electronics package and the excellent Narc beacon.

N...n...o..ooooo.... It is absolutely not lacking in team contribution... It's lacking in guns. "Team contribution" does not necessarily mean "getting to shoot things." It means "working with others to shoot things." Some will do the shooting, others will do the seeing. The Cicada does the seeing. And the running!

Here's a hypothetical... A Commando is doing some scouting. He walks around a corner and finds an Atlas... Good thing he's got an SRM-6 and an SRM-4! Except, you know, Atlas. So Commando turns around and starts bookin' it... But before he can get too far out, AC/20 to the back, bye-bye Commando.

Play the same thing out with a Cicada. You're going to be moving almost FORTY kph faster than the Commando, making it that much easier to get out alive.

Good thing you weren't carrying any dead weight, like, say, an SRM-6...

Edited for armor misconception

Edited by Bloodweaver, 26 June 2012 - 02:19 PM.

[Kobold]

KitK, on 26 June 2012 - 02:01 PM, said:

The thing is there is a certain point where an engine gets so heavy that lighter mechs can do the same job just as well or better for less C-bills. The Cicada, Dragon, and Charger are cases in point.

Oddly enough, once XL engines and things like endosteel and FF become commonplace however, light mechs are almost entirely replaced by fast mediums such as the upgraded Cicada or Wraith (or for clanners, things like the Fenris, Phantom, and Dragonfly).

The Dragon is mainly punished by its large engine, but frankly by the fact the AC5 is a terribad weapon. If it were replaced by a PPC (such as in the level 1 tech DRG-1G Grand Dragon) it becomes an excellent mech. The DRG-5K turns it into a faster, heavy cavalry mech.

Lastly: The Cicada and Dragon have a huge advantage in one area: Weight to BV ratio. They can literally kick the crap out of things. The Dragon, Quickdraw, and especially the much maligned Charger CGR-A1 are terrors when it comes to melee combat. A Charger is more than happy to chase down a slower Medium or Heavy and turn its legs into shattered wreckage.

[Hexenhammer]

Bad stock mech? Lets take a look at the poster child of bad stock mechs the Banshee. 95 tons with 1 PPC, 1 AC/5, and 1 Small Laser!

The Bushwacker is a 55 ton mech with 1 AC/10, 2 LRM-5s, 1 ER Large Laser, and 2 Machine Guns!

The only cool thing about the Banshee is this drawing.

[Bloodweaver]

Ubertron X, on 26 June 2012 - 02:12 PM, said:

Though the Dragon might not be the worst mech out there it surely does not have the potential Bloodweaver is attributing to it. A Griffin will beat it in range combat any day, and a Wolverine in melee and both mechs are even 5 tons lighter. Ostroc as well as Ostsol are far superior mechs too, leaving only Quickdraw and Rifleman to fall behind. And any 65 tons mech apart from the Jaegermech will blow it to pieces as well, be it Catapult, Crusader or Thunderbolt.

Having said so, my worst stock variants are the stylish but unfortunate Shadow Hawk and the dread Jaegermech.

Hey, I'll take a Griffin, Wolverine, Quickdraw, or Crusader over the Dragon any day... All but the Griffin are among my favorite designs, and I'd prefer not to have to rely on a snake Mech for my upper-end medium/low-end heavy Mech fix! But the idea the Dragon is under-gunned is only possible if you completely ignore its tactical applications. It's a good design for what it's meant to do - operate in groups to deliver firepower from a variety of ranges with great mobility and survivability. Like all other Mechs released so far, it is NOT meant to operate on its own.

Edited by Bloodweaver, 26 June 2012 - 02:30 PM.

[Radgor Ryan]

I don't mind the Dragon DRG-1N at all. I've played years of heavies and fought with and against lots of my friends playing Dragons.

When you squeeze the engine of an Atlas into a 60 ton frame, something has got to give. Weaponry is not the Dragons strong suit, but that doesn't mean its not effective. This mech hits the battlefield before anything its weight or above, as such, it can scout. It carries the same total amount of LRMs as a stock Catapult and an AC/5 is decent against light/mediums at range. Of course it wasn't meant to go toe-to-toe with anything really, but you guys have no idea how persistant and ultimately deadly these things can be.

When you see a lance of these things work together, you better hide, 'cause you aren't gonna run from them.

[Bloodweaver]

UbertronX, naturally the Dragon isn't the only Mech designed to operate more or less as its own self-supporting unit. But the way this is implemented in its case does make it seem woefully outclassed when compared to most other designs in similar weight classes. Nobody really questions a load-out like the Ostsol's because it's all lasers. Even the newbiest of newbs could see the advantage of never needing to stop for ammo reloads, and of completely avoiding internal ammo explosions. The Dragon does have one advantage over the Ostsol, though; indirect fire capability. In hilly terrain, a lance of Dragons could soften up a lance of Ostsols by sending one of its units out to relay targeting info, then closing to brawl once the LRMs run dry. It also has more armor, but only by a ton, so I wouldn't consider that to be really worth mentioning.

Just to be sure, you aren't referring to the Ostsol's energy load-out, are you? Because I'm not talking about that... Obviously the Dragon is virtually useless without supply lines for ammo reloads. When I say it's not meant to operate on its own, I mean that a Dragon (just like all the other Mechs MW:O has shown so far) is not meant to go into combat alone, as a single Mech. Previous MW games all emphasized lone wolf gameplay in their single player campaigns, intentionally or not... Which sucks, but now we finally see the approach of a MW title that truly and effectively emphasizes group tactics

Edited by Bloodweaver, 26 June 2012 - 02:42 PM.

[Rappo]

The Dragon is rubbish and anyone defending it doesn't have a clue about how terrible this Mech is going to be. I could go on why it's a rubbish Mech but many have already summed it up. Feel free to use it though. Cannon fodder is always welcome.

[KageRyuu]

Raalic, on 26 June 2012 - 01:15 PM, said:

CDA-2A's engine is absolutely enormous. Swapping it out for a 300XL (this may be incredibly expensive, but eh) should bring it down to a "mere" 121kph and provide plenty of new space for MLAS and heatsinks. I actually really like the 2A.. just not STOCK.. as it were.

As for Stock Variants You Should Always Use: See HBK-4P

I disagree, the 4P should at the very least be upgraded to Double Heat Sinks and given a slightly bigger engine to give it better mobility to use it's medium lasers. Other than that, it's entirely up to the user on how far they want to take it.

[Foxmoan]

Sierra19, on 26 June 2012 - 01:53 PM, said:

The stock Charger isn't all that great either.

^^ This.

But seriously, I do like the charger, if only because of how BAD it is at its job. When playing A Time of War, sometimes ill get a charger because buying a used one is cheap due to its rep, and taking the time to modify it into something not soo terrible. Nothing too great mind you,because we use the full blown rules and id just end up breaking it more, but enough that when id fire, it would surprise the enemy long enough to get in a punch or two, lol.

[KageRyuu]

Radgor Ryan, on 26 June 2012 - 02:40 PM, said:

I don't mind the Dragon DRG-1N at all. I've played years of heavies and fought with and against lots of my friends playing Dragons.

When you squeeze the engine of an Atlas into a 60 ton frame, something has got to give. Weaponry is not the Dragons strong suit, but that doesn't mean its not effective. This mech hits the battlefield before anything its weight or above, as such, it can scout. It carries the same total amount of LRMs as a stock Catapult and an AC/5 is decent against light/mediums at range. Of course it wasn't meant to go toe-to-toe with anything really, but you guys have no idea how persistant and ultimately deadly these things can be.

When you see a lance of these things work together, you better hide, 'cause you aren't gonna run from them.

Not even close my friend, 10 LRMs vs 30.