99 replies to this topic

[Lorcan Lladd]

KageRyuu, on 26 June 2012 - 04:00 PM, said:

Yes but you also completely ignore the tactical applications of all the other mechs as well when making your grandiose statements about the power and "independence" of a Dragon.

Dragons don't do well in cities or dense terrain period, you want to know why? Hunchbacks. They're absolute terrors in cities, mountains, and dense forests where LRMs and other long ranged weapons are mostly useless or out classed due to lack of LOS and intervening terrain (weapons which the Dragon relies a lot on) which nullify their range advantage.

In a city 9 times out of 10 you're forced to close on the enemy with minimal information, and with a Dragon 1N if you have to close on the enemy all you have is an AC 5 and a 2 Medium Lasers, while a Huncback 4G has an AC20, 2 Medium Lasers, and even a Small Laser. You can argue your speed will allow you to run circles around a Catapult or Atlas on an open field all you want, but a Huchback isn't going to be circle strafed anywhere especially not in a city, and given that they both have the same amount of armor but the Hunchback has double the Dragon's short range firepower, a Dragon isn't going to like brawling with him one bit or even being in the same city as an enemy Huncback if he can help it.

Now yes, a Dragon can outgun anything it can't out run, but it's reliance on range is a detriment in anything but wide open spaces, and given city fighting is all about short ranged burst damage, aka brawling. A Skirmisher like the Dragon just can't compete.

Also, given the vids on the Catapult to date I don't think you'll want to try to snipe someone who can indirect fire 30 LRMs, and without experimentation I would argue that a Dragon 1N probably wouldn't want to brawl with one either seeing as a CPLT-C1 has the same armor as a Dragon but has 4 Medium Lasers to the previously mentioned 1N's armament, if the Dragon can't keep behind the Cat, he'll regret it.

In fact, a 1N Dragon just can't brawl, his focus is just too much on long ranged low damage over time that the sight or even thought of a Dragon pilot attempting to do so with anything it can't outrun just reeks of desperation.


Possibly, but regardless they all have the same number of missiles per ton of ammo, 120.

LRM 5 x 24 = 120
LRM 10 x 12 = 120
LRM 15 x 8 = 120
LRM 20 x 6 = 120

Which is why nobody would be foolish enough to drive that thing into a city; the whole idea, then, is to just snipe away at enemies and lay supressing fire with your LRMs and AC to keep them from leaving that city - in order to do that efficiently, to keep enemies from leaving a vast, yet dense terrain, you just need the kind of combination between speed and firing range which only the Dragon possesses, so you can always move to keep up with enemies and find better firing positions.

Still with that hypothetical scenario in mind, as long as you kept the enemies from advancing, you could even call for artillery or fire support from other, slower 'Mechs and weaken them enough for a Hunchback or Atlas to move in and finish the job.

The Dragon does depend upon a great range-to-target in order to be effective in battle, but then again so do other 'Mechs such as the Catapult and the Trebuchet; what makes the Dragon unique amongst them is that it can not only maintain that range, but increase it, as well.

Just the same as the battle is already lost for a Hunchback caught on exposed terrain by a long-range attacker, a Dragon can be made vulnerable at short ranges or enclosed terrain, yes, but a good pilot, no, better yet, a good lanceleader, will do whatever is possible to keep that from happening.

Should they fail?
Yes, they'll be desperate.
But it's their job to do the thinking, not the 'Mech's.

Edit.
Improving upon format, removing double-post, adding some points.

Edited by Lorcan Lladd, 26 June 2012 - 07:12 PM.

[MrM1971]

the dragon isnt as bad as you make it out to be its all about knowing how to use it

its not meant for up close and personal fights its meant to pick away at enemies from long range in support of other mechs ( if another heavy or assualt threatens you move away since you are faster then most of them )

the combination of the ac 5 and the lrm 10 provide good long range firepower with little heat problems ( there not devestating fire power but solid anough to hurt meduim or light mechs anough that they will retreat to cover )

like many stock mechs its all about useing it for a role that compliments its loadout

this mech is made for mobile fire support with possible scout interception abilities ( its fast anough to chase down many scout mechs and keep them in range of its weapons to cripple or destroy them )

[Foxmoan]

trycksh0t, on 26 June 2012 - 06:42 PM, said:

Where did I mention anything about staying in the rear arc for extended period or circle of death? I seem to recall saying that a "a Cicada drive-by can still take most of the armor off your backside if you're distracted by something else." Nowhere did I state a solitary Cicada is going to come running in out of nowhere and circle a Heavy 'Mech to death.

A Cicada Drive-by - Mech A is engaged with Mech B (Cicada's teammate). Cicada pilot sees this, comes in at full speed from outside Mech A's firing arcs, puts all 3 lasers into it's back, and keeps going. Never slowing down, never stopping, not circling. If Mech A tries to respond to the Cicada, Mech B is going to light him up. If he ignores the Cicada, he takes 15 damage to his rear armor. That is a Cicada Drive-by.

Well that's all well and good but if just one mech is around from the other team with no support then frankly that guy deserves what hes getting, and doing your drive by will be nearly impossible in an urban setting anyway. All of these examples of a scout actually doing reasonable damage to a heavier chassis always assumes that the other mech is distracted and that NOBODY else is around. Considering MWO is a game meant to be played as a team and therefore its unlikely you will get that opening unless there just plain playing badly.

[Skadi]

Joseph Mallan, on 26 June 2012 - 06:53 PM, said:

A star of Piranha won a Star on Star battle 2 or 3 years running. I didn't face them myself, but I could hear the carnage from my table!

Piranha 2 - This variant of the Piranha is fielded by Clan Ice Hellion upgrades to double heat sinks so that the Machine Guns can be effectively swapped out for ER Micro Lasers. The other lasers were upgraded to heavy models. BV (1.0) = ??, BV (2.0) = 853^[7]
if they were using that varient, yeah ide imagine alot of carnage.

[Joseph Mallan]

Nope. Stock 5 MG Piranhas. No level 3 tech was allowed & this was before the heavy lasers hit the scene. Not that I disagree with your idea, I'd have gone the same route as you suggested IF I were to try the School o fish.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 26 June 2012 - 07:14 PM.

[StingerPryde]

Joseph Mallan, on 26 June 2012 - 06:53 PM, said:

A star of Piranha won a Star on Star battle 2 or 3 years running. I didn't face them myself, but I could hear the carnage from my table!

A star of 20 ton mechs? ... My god, the madness!

[Lorcan Lladd]

Piranhas?
If those things only mounted SRMs...

[Bloodweaver]

KageRyuu, on 26 June 2012 - 04:00 PM, said:

Yes but you also completely ignore the tactical applications of all the other mechs as well when making your grandiose statements about the power and "independence" of a Dragon.

Dragons don't do well in cities or dense terrain period, you want to know why? Hunchbacks. They're absolute terrors in cities, mountains, and dense forests where LRMs and other long ranged weapons are mostly useless or out classed due to lack of LOS and intervening terrain (weapons which the Dragon relies a lot on) which nullify their range advantage... Now yes, a Dragon can outgun anything it can't out run, but it's reliance on range is a detriment in anything but wide open spaces, and given city fighting is all about short ranged burst damage, aka brawling. A Skirmisher like the Dragon just can't compete.

Excuse me, I have most certainly not ignored the tactical applications of other Mechs. I have not focused on them, because there's no need for me to do so - you're already familiar with, and accepting of, them. On the other hand, you maintain that the Dragon is a poor design. Since it is not, that means you're not familiar with its applications. Thus my focus on it. Why would I try to convince you of an opinion you already have, telling you that Catapults make great fire support or that Centurions make for good defense/escort units?

As for city fighting: duh. I don't recall saying that a Dragon is a superior design to all others. I do find it hard to believe a Centurion would pose much of a threat, but once again, this is in terms of one-on-one. Which is not a realistic or useful reflection of what tactics actually entail. The Dragon is meant to be a self-sufficient design, the Centurion is meant to be a design that works alongside other designs. In any realistic situation, that Centurion is going to be backed up by either an assault or a fire support unit. Meaning the Dragon will need to take him out quickly... which is NOT going to happen, because the Dragon isn't meant to bring a lot of concentrated firepower in a short span of time. It can, however, engage the assault at a range that disadvantages it, same for the fire support... and if the Centurion approaches, the Dragon can disengage and draw the Centurion away from its lancemates, eliminate it, then re-engage. It just takes a lot more patience than most other designs do because it's meant to operate differently.

Now, if a pilot was going to be fighting in an urban environment, I hope he would be smart enough to either modify his Dragon or take another design entirely. Otherwise, he will suffer. Again, duh. And besides, like someone else posted above, even here the Dragon's effectiveness depends on exactly what the mission is supposed to accomplish. Unless there is a really impending deadline, there's no reason the Dragon couldn't engage the Hunchback opportunistically... But ultimately, I don't really understand what your point is. That Mechs are designed to shine in certain situations? I've already pointed that out; in fact, I rather strongly emphasized it in responding to you about the Cicada. The thing that separates the Dragon from most other designs is that it's not meant to shine in any one particular situation, but rather to have SOME advantage in any situation. It will not outclass other designs with an overwhelming advantage in any one area, but it will outclass numerous designs to a moderate degree in several areas. The weaponry itself reflects this overarching design philosophy; a decent long range weapon, a decent mid-range weapon, and a decent short-range arsenal. Not excellent in any one area, but because it allows for decent performance at all ranges, it doesn't need any other Mech designs in its lance to provide fire support, fast response, etc. This is why a lance of Dragons is self-sufficient; it can perform all tasks necessary for most situations. A Catapult will be a better fighter at range, but without some spotters to help it target enemies, it is vulnerable to brawlers and cavalry units. This is why a lance of Catapults alone, without any other units to round out their own abilities, has a severe vulnerability(speed, short range). As does a lance of Hunchbacks(mobility, long range). Or a lance of Atlases(mobility, long range).

KageRyuu, on 26 June 2012 - 04:00 PM, said:

Also, given the vids on the Catapult to date I don't think you'll want to try to snipe someone who can indirect fire 30 LRMs, and without experimentation I would argue that a Dragon 1N probably wouldn't want to brawl with one either seeing as a CPLT-C1 has the same armor as a Dragon but has 4 Medium Lasers to the previously mentioned 1N's armament, if the Dragon can't keep behind the Cat, he'll regret it.

OK, you're still not understanding. In order to be able to indirect fire, a Catapult will need another Mech to spot targets. Most likely a Jenner, Cicada, or Commando, out of the options so far in MW:O. The idea behind the Dragon is that it can outgun these faster spotter units -whether by range or by firepower- and then move to engage the Catapult once it is disadvantaged by relying on its own lock-on mechanisms. And because it's faster than the Catapult, it can dictate exactly how that engagement plays out. And since even most "open" areas still provide significant areas of cover, the Catapult is not going to have a cakewalk - though he can definitely come out on top, it's not going to be as easy as it would have been in previous MW titles - especially now that LRMs are not going to be doing full damage.

As for the short range duel, you could be right, you could be wrong... This one is harder to predict. The Catapult has jump jets, but the Dragon is faster. They both have the same armor. The Catapult has twice as much laser weaponry, but the Dragon has an AC/5. Although a lot of people here seem to hold some disdain for it, I've never had a problem with that particular weapon. Although it's optimized for further distances, it performs just fine at short range. And I'm sure it's implementation in MW:O will be more useful than the one in, say, MW4. And it's low-heat - the four medium lasers on that Catapult are going to push its heat up. Also, the AC/5 is arm-mounted - making it respond much more quickly and accurately than the torso-mounted lasers. When all is said and done, I'd give the advantage to the Dragon at short range. But perhaps you and I can try this scenario out in a few months and see how it actually goes

KageRyuu, on 26 June 2012 - 04:00 PM, said:

Possibly, but regardless they all have the same number of missiles per ton of ammo, 120.

I can't say for certain, but I think his point was that, ultimately, both Mechs can cause the same amount of damage with their LRMs. Which is true, but only applicable if the Dragon's pilot is *really* good at drawing out the engagement. Kind of a moot point... But it wasn't mine

Foxmoan, on 26 June 2012 - 04:21 PM, said:

Frankly, I always think its cute whwn scouts say there just as powerful as bigger guys on the feild. There not. Just as useful, yes, but not as powerful. Scouts need to stick to there job and relay information, letting the big guys dish out the pain. A good scout will never need to fire a weapon anyway, as in most TRO's its mentioned that adding weapons at all is more to act as a deterrent then to actually be used... So spot your targets and run the heck away so the fire support can run in and soften up the enemy while the brawlers trudge in and finish them off.... Long story short, do your lance a favor by marking your targets and just running away under passive/inactive radar and all that shizz and let the big boys do the damage. You will get your XP, and even save tons of c-bills not needing to repair your mech nearly as much.

Exactly! Do YOUR job well so that your buddies can do THEIRS!

Lorcan Lladd, on 26 June 2012 - 07:01 PM, said:

The Dragon does depend upon a great range-to-target in order to be effective in battle, but then again so do other 'Mechs such as the Catapult and the Trebuchet; what makes the Dragon unique amongst them is that it can not only maintain that range, but increase it, as well... Should [the pilot] fail?
Yes, they'll be desperate.
But it's their job to do the thinking, not the 'Mech's.

Exactly right on both counts. The Dragon fulfills a very unique role that, like I mentioned earlier, requires a lot more situational awareness than most other designs. Why? Because you're supposed to be doing everything - recon, fire support, and direct attack, all at once. A Catapult pilot only needs to worry about fire support. A Raven pilot only needs to worry about recon and infowar. A Dragon pilot will probably, at varying points, need to perform all those tasks.

And the second point quoted could not be more true. You have to make the Mech work for you, regardless of which Mech we're talking about. Figure out what it can do well, what it can't, and use it accordingly. It would be silly to complain about not being able to provide fast-response from a Hunchback, or infighting from a Catapult.

Edited by Bloodweaver, 26 June 2012 - 07:39 PM.

[Yu Kigono]

A lot of these assumptions about the performance of the DRG-1N, assumes that the AC/5 acts pretty much like it does in the tabletop game. I'm guessing the devs will probably buff the AC/2 and AC/5 a bit, to make them more worthwhile.

Edited by Yu Kigono, 26 June 2012 - 07:42 PM.

[Drunken Firebat]

The sixty-ton weight class in general has always had some issues. For every Ostmann series (Ostsol, Ostroc) you get things like the stock Rifleman or Dragon (yeah, smartest thing the Combine EVER did was refit those DRG chasses with PPCs.)

The Dragon design itself isn't bad, but the choice of firepower was... pretty underwhelming. If you're going to be a raider, you'd be better off with a primary gun that's an energy weapon instead of a popgun caliber autocannon. The DRG-1G does require you to manage your heat so you don't slow down at an inconvenient time, but that's life.

The BNC-3E was just stupid. The Lyrans had the right idea when they cut the engine back to make it a 3/5 and loaded it down with enough guns that even an Atlas would be impressed. The BNC-3S mounted 2x PPC, 1xAC/10, 1xSRM6, 4xML, 2xSL. Not bad at all.

[Skadi]

Blood weave, @ the inderect spotting units you left out the raven.
As for a fight with the catapult, it would definatly depend on the armament, on a certain... footage... i saw the catapult can have 2 heavy lasers and medium lasers With the missile pods, that would most certainly cause trouble for a dragon, too add ontop that the catapult could swap his LRM's for MRM's or have 2 PPC's if hes a K2 (ouch indeed)

Edited by Skadi, 26 June 2012 - 07:58 PM.

[Ricama]

Kanatta Jing, on 26 June 2012 - 06:10 PM, said:

On that note, if you aren't good with missles you probably shouldn't buy a missle boat.

Exactly, but there's lots of mechs that include a small rack or two.

[Foxmoan]

Bloodweaver, on 26 June 2012 - 07:35 PM, said:

Exactly! Do YOUR job well so that your buddies can do THEIRS!

THANK you...

[Targetloc]

PNT-9R Panther.

I love that little mech, but its niche is that it's a dirt cheap walking PPC to add to deploy in numbers at low cost. It can't fight other scout mechs 1v1, and it's too slow to run away from mediums or heavies that will rip it in half. It's a great mech to command, but you don't want to be the guy sitting in it.

Edited by Targetloc, 26 June 2012 - 08:00 PM.

[Tyrgrim]

Will THe rules be the samr in the Computer game as in the Boardgame? Because The design flaws were usually using AC's smaller than 20. The lasers just did that job better.

[Bloodweaver]

Skadi, on 26 June 2012 - 07:47 PM, said:

Blood weave, @ the inderect spotting units you left out the raven.
As for a fight with the catapult, it would definatly depend on the armament, on a certain... footage... i saw the catapult can have 2 heavy lasers and medium lasers With the missile pods, that would most certainly cause trouble for a dragon, too add ontop that the catapult could swap his LRM's for MRM's or have 2 PPC's if hes a K2 (ouch indeed)

Ah, I thought I had included it too. I actually meant to leave out Commando and replace it with Raven, since although the Commando is certainly capable as a spotter, it's better used as an ambusher. A Jenner has more mobility, a Raven has more toys, and a Cicada has more speed.

Regarding the alternate armaments, that's a moot point... This thread is specifically discussing prime stock variants If we were to discuss all possible alternate armaments, there wouldn't be anything to discuss since any Mech could be modified in endless ways...

[Hobgoblin13]

I'd say the urbanmech. Anyone remember the pacman cartoons. That's what it reminds me of.

[PewPew]

Glythe, on 26 June 2012 - 01:04 PM, said:

From what I have seen the Jenner has heat problems. What good it is to have more weapons on a scout if you can't fire them very often? We don't know for sure but you might be able to beat the snot out of a Jenner with a Cicada because he can actually sustain that firepower and you can't.

Hit and run works as a scout on larger vehicles but you have to bear in mind that eventually people will be running around with modules like danger close (meaning it is impossible to sneak up on them). Every time you expose yourself to an enemy you run the risk that they will hit you back.

You answered your own question. You're not hitting often, so when you do, it should count.

[Jad Ivask]

Bloodweaver, on 26 June 2012 - 07:35 PM, said:

Exactly right on both counts. The Dragon fulfills a very unique role that, like I mentioned earlier, requires a lot more situational awareness than most other designs. Why? Because you're supposed to be doing everything - recon, fire support, and direct attack, all at once. A Catapult pilot only needs to worry about fire support. A Raven pilot only needs to worry about recon and infowar. A Dragon pilot will probably, at varying points, need to perform all those tasks.

And the second point quoted could not be more true. You have to make the Mech work for you, regardless of which Mech we're talking about. Figure out what it can do well, what it can't, and use it accordingly. It would be silly to complain about not being able to provide fast-response from a Hunchback, or infighting from a Catapult.

This is spot on. The Dragon is a Trooper mech, meant to be at least somewhat capable in a wide array of tasks. Most will either skip it for it's lack of specialization, or use it as a trainer to help focus on the role they're really good at before they drop it for their preferred speciality mech.

Being the General Purpose in any game is a thankless, dirty task that rarely gets the recognition it deserves. However, those that choose to stick with and become skilled at it will be a credit to whichever team they end up on.

I'll be keeping mine.

Edited by Jad Ivask, 26 June 2012 - 09:52 PM.

[Grimbrand]

Hey, I've always loved Cicadas. They make a lovely hood ornament for my assault mechs when they fail to get out of my frontal firing arc fast enough.

IMHO, a more expensive and overweight Locust.

As for Dragons, you can make a lot of arguments about how they're a 'fast heavy' - but simply said, they are not fast enough to really impress. Especially when carrying around ammo-dependent and low-damage weapons. Mobility is important, but the ability to hit your target and hurt him badly when the opportunity presents is equally important. The Dragon simply lacks that ability.


"Okay, now I'm gonna scratch your Hunchback's paint with my AC5! Take that! And a salvo from my LRM's... HA! More paint gone! And Pew! I just hit you with a Med laser! Whatcha gonna do about that, huh? ...

WHAM! AC20 from the Hunchback, all to one location.

I know, I know; the AC/20 isn't the 'ultimate' weapon. There are lots of other options, and in any given situation, you can find one weapon that will outperform another. But the armament on a Dragon is just not capable of doing serious focused damage, needed to punch holes and start trashing internal systems in the same way as most other Heavy mechs. Even in groups, as has been mentioned, there are other mechs that can usually get the job done better. Dragons are 'jacks of all trades and masters of none' in a lot of ways.

... And that's why I just can't take the Dragon very seriously as a Heavy. I'll spend my C-bills on something else. But hey! I'm a Merc! Not a Drac. What do I know?