29 replies to this topic

[Digglesworth_]

So just Played my first game after being gone for 8 months or so. First thing I noticed is Clan Mechs are allowed to just roflstomp inner sphere mechs as they please? That's just what I saw. Am I wrong and there is a huge caveat to playing Clan Mechs since they end up with IS in MM anyway? Whats the communities view on this?

Secondly, apparently since I need to be saving up to purchase a Clan Mech, which should I look into? I prefer a mix of mobility/firepower... like Mediums/Heavies

[Walluh]

You're going to get flooded with frothing fury over clan mechs from IS players, while they all completely ignore any drawbacks to clan weapons or the existence of IS quirks.

[Darian DelFord]

Sir Vance Alot, on 06 December 2014 - 09:19 AM, said:

So just Played my first game after being gone for 8 months or so. First thing I noticed is Clan Mechs are allowed to just roflstomp inner sphere mechs as they please? That's just what I saw. Am I wrong and there is a huge caveat to playing Clan Mechs since they end up with IS in MM anyway? Whats the communities view on this?

Secondly, apparently since I need to be saving up to purchase a Clan Mech, which should I look into? I prefer a mix of mobility/firepower... like Mediums/Heavies

As a Jenner I eat most clan mechs for lunch excpet for the Timberwolf, its to damn agile.

While powerful they have their weakness, you just have to know them. The quirkening, really brought some IS mechs on par with clans. In some cases, surpassed them severely.

Edited by Darian DelFord, 06 December 2014 - 09:25 AM.

[Sam Slade]

Buy a Timberwolf ... put half-smart build on it ... win

[Brody319]

God here come the whining IS bads who can't figure out how to beat clan mechs.

Clans are not better than IS, if anything they are close as they have ever been. IS got quirks, and clans got nerfed. You just need to learn their weaknesses.
For the stormcrow, its giant break {LT-MOB-25} pit from the side is actually a CT so shoot that to core it easily.
for TImberwolves shoot the shoulders and it will lose its STs and a lot of its weapons. shoot out both STs and its dead.
For Direwolves they can't move their arms side to side, so you are going to need to keep on the move to stay out of their weapon's range, then shoot off their arms to remove a lot of fire power.

The rest are really just as simple as shoot the CT till they die.

[The Boz]

Walluh, on 06 December 2014 - 09:21 AM, said:

You're going to get flooded with frothing fury over clan mechs from IS players, while they all completely ignore any drawbacks to clan weapons or the existence of IS quirks.

You're going to get flooded with frothing fury over clan mechs from clan players, while they all completely ignore any advantages to clan mechss, and emphasize the importance of IS quirks.

[FupDup]

The "Holy Trinity" of top tier Clan Omnimechs is the Timberwolf, Stormcrow, and Dire Whale. They are the top dogs in their respective weight classes, period. Of those three, the Timber and Storm have optimal blends of durability, speed, and firepower for their weight.


Down underneath them, however, most Omnis aren't ruling their classes. Some like the Warhawk and Suckoner are about on-par or so. The Hellbringer is probably Tier 1 and just above most IS heavies, but not by an egregious margin; it's also still somewhat easy to CT core even with the hitbox adjustments (mostly applies to short range fights). The Clan lights in particular are inferior to the best IS lights, with the Mist Lynx somehow managing to be inferior to the Locust (which is a massive achievement in and of itself).

[Brody319]

FupDup, on 06 December 2014 - 09:27 AM, said:

The "Holy Trinity" of top tier Clan Omnimechs is the Timberwolf, Stormcrow, and Dire Whale. They are the top dogs in their respective weight classes, period. Of those three, the Timber and Storm have optimal blends of durability, speed, and firepower for their weight.


Down underneath them, however, most Omnis aren't ruling their classes. Some like the Warhawk and Suckoner are about on-par or so. The Hellbringer is probably Tier 1 and just above most IS heavies, but not by an egregious margin; it's also still somewhat easy to CT core even with the hitbox adjustments (mostly applies to short range fights). The Clan lights in particular are inferior to the best IS lights, with the Mist Lynx somehow managing to be inferior to the Locust (which is a massive achievement in and of itself).

Warhawk and Hellbringer are about the same with their IS counterparts in terms of effectiveness.
Summoner (suckoner) are FAR FAR below the IS. Near quickdraw effectiveness.

[Andi Nagasia]

i think the main reason is well that their different,
at this time in MWO, IS have Battle-Mechs & Clans Omni-Mechs,

the In-game difference between the two?(Lore Difference is another topic)
Battle-Mechs=
-have locked hard-points, but can upgrade and change all their mech internals,
-this includes Endo, Ferro, Engines, they have Dynamic Armor & Structure,
-the only disadvantage is their locked hard-points, how MWO fixes this?
-they offer a wide selection of Variants with all kinds of Hard-points,
Omni-Mechs=
-they can swap out their hard-points and change them, but they have locked internals
-their upgrades, JJ, and engines are locked, and sometimes certain weapons,
-because of their locked equipment they cant gain much more tonnage,
-in most cases lowering armor is the only way to get more tonnage,

now to compare an IS Battle-Mech vs a Clan Omni-mech
(both will have 250Engine, and go the same speed(81Kph))
a Nova is able to choose between 3 Variants of Omni-pods total,
-NVA-Prime hard-point Max= 12Energy,
-NVA-B hard-point Max= 2Energy, 3Balistic,
-NVA-S hard-point Max= 6Energy, 4Balistic,
(mixing you can get 13Energy or 6Energy+5Balistic but it only has 16freetons)
but its competition the Hunch-Back has 5-6 variants + a Hero Variant,
-HBK-4g hard-point Max= 3Energy, 3Balistic
-HBK-4H hard-point Max= 5Energy, 1Balistic,
-HBK-4J hard-point Max= 6Energy, 2Missile,
-HBK-4P hard-point Max= 9Energy,
-HBK-4SP hard-point Max= 5Energy, 2Missile,
-Grid-Iron hard-point Max= 3Energy, 2Balistic, 1Missile,
(with a STDEngine has 16.5freetons, with a XLEngine has 22.5freetons)

as it looks right now you can see the difference between the two types of mechs,
if weapons arnt brought into the equation, they look mostly Balanced with each other,

Now Weapons are balanced as well,
IS-Lasers= Low-Beam-Duration + Low-Heat = Lower-Damage + Shorter-Range,
Clan-Lasers= High-Beam-Duration + High-Heat = Higher-Damage + Longer-Range,
IS-ACs = 1Single-Shot + Slightly-Shorter-Range,
Clan-ACs= 2-5Shot-burstfire + Slightly-longer-Range, (Ultra & LBX for all ACs)
IS-MIssiles = Single-Volley + Slightly-Shorter-Cool-Down,
Clan-MIssiles= Stream-Volley + Slightly-longer-Cool-Down, (all Streaks2-4-6)

Edit- Spelling

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 06 December 2014 - 09:36 AM.

[FupDup]

Brody319, on 06 December 2014 - 09:31 AM, said:

Warhawk and Hellbringer are about the same with their IS counterparts in terms of effectiveness.
Summoner (suckoner) are FAR FAR below the IS. Near quickdraw effectiveness.

The Suckoner isn't amazing by any stretch, but it does at least have decent durability. There are also a select few loadouts like 5 ASRM6 that can hit hard, although most loadouts aren't as impressive. I had fun with a 2 ERPPC + 2 ERML + 2 MG loadout before PPC projectile speed got nerfed. :\

It's not the top heavy by any means, but it's a lot better than the Quickdie.

[Ragnar Darkmane]

Walluh, on 06 December 2014 - 09:21 AM, said:

You're going to get flooded with frothing fury over clan mechs from IS players, while they all completely ignore any drawbacks to clan weapons or the existence of IS quirks.

And the thread will be flooded by clan players complaining about IS players complaining about the power level of clan mechs,claiming that IS quirks and Clan "downsides" balance everything out... meanwhile ignoring the fact that Timberwolves, Stormcrows and Direwolves absolutely dominate their respective weight class (3 out of 4).

Edited by Ragnar Darkmane, 06 December 2014 - 09:38 AM.

[Brody319]

FupDup, on 06 December 2014 - 09:35 AM, said:

The Suckoner isn't amazing by any stretch, but it does at least have decent durability. There are also a select few loadouts like 5 ASRM6 that can hit hard, although most loadouts aren't as impressive. I had fun with a 2 ERPPC + 2 ERML + 2 MG loadout before PPC projectile speed got nerfed. :\

It's not the top heavy by any means, but it's a lot better than the Quickdie.

I would put the Summoner near the bottom of the clan mech. it needs a lot of work. Problem is it just doesn't have a role the Hellbringer or Timberwolf couldn't do better. could use some better omnis

[Walluh]

Brody319, on 06 December 2014 - 09:38 AM, said:

I would put the Summoner near the bottom of the clan mech. it needs a lot of work. Problem is it just doesn't have a role the Hellbringer or Timberwolf couldn't do better. could use some better omnis

It beats them in AMS!

..That's literally it. Well, and Jumpjets. It jumps a little higher than a TBR-S I think.

[FupDup]

Brody319, on 06 December 2014 - 09:38 AM, said:

I would put the Summoner near the bottom of the clan mech. it needs a lot of work. Problem is it just doesn't have a role the Hellbringer or Timberwolf couldn't do better. could use some better omnis

The bottom of the Clan mech pile is the Mist Lynx, no debate to be had. The Suckoner is at least salvageable with some loadouts, but the Lynx...

I think that left and right torso omnipods that gave it 1 energy hardpoint per side torso would fix like 90% of the mech's issues. Fixes the hardpoint issue because moar pewpew, and helps deal with the pod space issue because pewpew is more tonnage economical than whoosh and dakka.

[Brody319]

Walluh, on 06 December 2014 - 09:41 AM, said:

It beats them in AMS!

..That's literally it. Well, and Jumpjets. It jumps a little higher than a TBR-S I think.

barely. JJ are like hover boards and skips for heavies and assaults.

FupDup, on 06 December 2014 - 09:43 AM, said:

The bottom of the Clan mech pile is the Mist Lynx, no debate to be had. The Suckoner is at least salvageable with some loadouts, but the Lynx...

I think that left and right torso omnipods that gave it 1 energy hardpoint per side torso would fix like 90% of the mech's issues. Fixes the hardpoint issue because moar pewpew, and helps deal with the pod space issue because pewpew is more tonnage economical than whoosh and dakka.

Summoner could use some side torso energy slots as well
Lynx, ferret, and Adder need some face lasers.
the Adder's flamer is near useless in most situations so making it not hardwired would go a long way.
Lynx and Ferret's shape pretty much requires them to have some Torso energy slots if they are to be effective.

Edited by Brody319, 06 December 2014 - 09:45 AM.

[Koniving]

Sir Vance Alot, on 06 December 2014 - 09:19 AM, said:

So just Played my first game after being gone for 8 months or so. First thing I noticed is Clan Mechs are allowed to just roflstomp inner sphere mechs as they please? That's just what I saw. Am I wrong and there is a huge caveat to playing Clan Mechs since they end up with IS in MM anyway? Whats the communities view on this?

My view is that it stinks.
Clan mechs have a number of issues going against them.
Heavies and assaults are in favor exclusively because of their ability to run ER Large and LPL weapons; which still have damage buffs beyond canon, with severe heat reductions far below canon.

Meanwhile medium and small class lasers have severe heat increases, and everything has ghost heat.

What makes a select view especially viable is a wonky set of hitboxes where you can get around with 1 armor on the back, all other armor on the front, get surrounded and still have no damage on your back even after you die.

Then again, certain IS mechs have these wonky hitboxes too. Firestarters and Jenners being the greatest offenders.

Now, while the IS doesn't have UACs, they have quirks. Certain mechs can make an AC/20 fire every 2.8 seconds instead of every 4 seconds. Some mechs can fire MLs faster than others can fire AC/10s. Some have severely reduced heat generation on certain weapons. Awesomes can now fire 3 PPCs twice as often as they could before; not that ghost heat ever did a damn thing to stop them in the first place.

But most interesting of all... The Clans still have buffs beyond canon that the IS keeps getting buffed to counter, while PGI ignores it.

So here's an interesting thing. Clan LBX's (and the Clan AC placeholders for LBX's with switchable ammo), which some are supposed to be 1 ton heavier than the Clan UACs of the same sizes as well as 1 slot greater... have lost that extra ton and extra slot, allowing more Clan mechs to carry them that should not be able to. Furthermore, to counter this, Clan UACs are supposed to be hotter than Clan LBX's. (There's also the permanent jam, but PGI pretty much decided to exclude perm-jams completely. Still, the clans could have had longer jams).

Here's another: Targeting computers allow any Clan mech carrying them to have energy range and ballistic travel speed buffs. This clearly favors mechs with more tonnage to spare (not very bright).
The IS counterpart of this is quirks.
So how come LBX and MGs are constantly excluded? No Clan or IS LBX gets any benefits. No MG gets any benefits. Why?

[FupDup]

Koniving, on 06 December 2014 - 09:47 AM, said:

...
So here's an interesting thing. Clan LBX's (and the Clan AC placeholders for LBX's with switchable ammo), which some are supposed to be 1 ton heavier than the Clan UACs of the same sizes as well as 1 slot greater... have lost that extra ton and extra slot, allowing more Clan mechs to carry them that should not be able to. Furthermore, to counter this, Clan UACs are supposed to be hotter than Clan LBX's. (There's also the permanent jam, but PGI pretty much decided to exclude perm-jams completely. Still, the clans could have had longer jams).
...

I'm going to have to correct this one part in particular. Clan UACs and LB-X weapons always had the same tonnage in TT.

For heat, the only cases that were different were the 10 rated and 20 rated versions. In those cases, the Ultras did 1 more heat than the LB-X of the same size. The 5 and 2 rated ones, however, always had the same heat value of 1 per shot.


Also, Clan LB-X are already 1 slot larger than their UAC counterparts as they were in TT.

[Kain Demos]

Ragnar Darkmane, on 06 December 2014 - 09:36 AM, said:

And the thread will be flooded by clan players complaining about IS players complaining about the power level of clan mechs,claiming that IS quirks and Clan "downsides" balance everything out... meanwhile ignoring the fact that Timberwolves, Stormcrows and Direwolves absolutely dominate their respective weight class (3 out of 4).

It is like this has become the official party line of those that still wnat more clan nerfs.

Have you even SEEN what the Dragon 1N and Thunderbolt with all the lasers do now post quirks?

Every time I see one in a match it is like 700 damage minimum.

[Ultimax]

Sir Vance Alot, on 06 December 2014 - 09:19 AM, said:

So just Played my first game after being gone for 8 months or so. First thing I noticed is Clan Mechs are allowed to just roflstomp inner sphere mechs as they please? That's just what I saw. Am I wrong and there is a huge caveat to playing Clan Mechs since they end up with IS in MM anyway? Whats the communities view on this?

Since you've just come back you'll need to spend some time learning where to shoot on different clan mechs, what ranges you are better off engaging.

You'll also not likely be familiar with all of the new IS quirks or the builds that make the most use of them.



Take some time to familiarize yourself with some of the mechs that got better quirks.


For example there are zero clan mechs I fear in my BNC-3M or 3E, unless it's a Dire Wolf that has me dead to rights in the open in a staring contest.

I'm OK with that, because in every other situation where I have some cover to work with or ability to flank I can usually pull that DWF apart.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 06 December 2014 - 10:52 AM.

[Mercules]

Sir Vance Alot, on 06 December 2014 - 09:19 AM, said:

First thing I noticed is Clan Mechs are allowed to just roflstomp inner sphere mechs as they please?

You stared at one, huh? Same thing would happen if you stared at some of the I.S. mechs with solid quirks. Read https://static.mwome...re%20Quirks.pdf, adjust your build(s), and don't stare at Clan mechs. They bring lots of DPS and mobility but not a ton of pinpoit alpha.