19 replies to this topic

[Grimbrand]

I know there are a lot of people that love not only Battletech, but also the old Robotech series. Further, I'm sure that some of us even enjoy Dragon Ball Z, and other series done by Harmony Gold.

I'm glad they created Warhammers, Shadow Hawks, and lots of other neat mechs that got used in the original Battletech games. Unseen.

I am sure they're proud of their work! They deserve to get paid for it; deserve to get recognition. But why on earth would they prevent these mechs from being used by other companies, when they were already used for so many years?

It seems to me that rather than improving their financial standings, and preserving their company's intellectual property, they are just shooting themselves in the foot. With a PPC. Repeatedly.

Every time this stuff comes up, and they make it tough for another Mechwarrior game, there are tons of people worldwide who are now ANGRY with Harmony Gold! It's frustrating. Even if they just smiled, and asked for a big chunk of money in order to use these mechs, that would at least allow more people to appreciate those designs, and earn them some revenue.

While I'm not privy to all the discussions that go on behind the scenes, I feel like they are the kids that have just taken their ball and gone home, so none of the other kids can play.

What do you guys think?

[LegionZero]

In all honesty I think that people that withhold stuff like that are kids, on the other hand they've paid for the copyright or whatnot of those mechs/names, so from that point of view it's well within their right... and will gamers be pisse dwhen they can't pilot a warhammer... HELL YEAH!!! but people are entitled to dig their own graves like that i suppose

[gregsolidus]

I don't think Harmony Gold cares.

[Steven Dixon]

If I remember correctly, Harmony Gold didn't create Robotech or DBZ, they just recut Robotech and dubbed it (or more accuratly they didn't create Macross, they recut it and renamed it Robotech), same with DBZ. The Japanese company that created Macross (and the warhammer/tomahawk, and other unseen) sold FASA the rights to use their images in their game. Later after Robotech became a huge success HG began claiming that they had all the rights to use those images in the US. Japanese courts said that HG was wrong, but US courts said they were right, so FASA lost. FASA and HG made a deal and the Maurader, Warhammer, ect became the 'Unseen'.

I'm not privy to the actual details of this case, so their could be more going on than their seems, but ya it does seem a little childish. I took 2 years of law and I understand that companies have to be zealous in the defense of their copyrights (Disney once sued an orphanage because they had Disney characters painted on their walls), if companies aren't zealous they will go the way of Refrigerator (ice boxes weren't always known as refrigerators). But still HG does seem a little petty.

[Vasces Diablo]

Actually, Harmony Gold didn't create them. They simply bought the rights to Release the material in thenUS. That's part of what led to the whole whole "unseen" issue. I don't remember all the details (and don't feel like looking it up) but no one seems to agree on who legally owns the rights to those creations.

[captn rentoshi]

How about instead of complaining about how old favorite designs are not being used, we come up with our own designs inspired by them, something like a remix or sampling of those venerable designs. (Just a crazy idea ) yes? no? maybe? huh?

[Vasces Diablo]

They did, they are called "reseen" and most if them are crazy ugly. Also, I swear the reseen version of the Crusader is a direct rip off of the "bioroids" from the Southern Cross series (Robotech part 2).

Edited by Vasces Diablo, 26 June 2012 - 01:33 PM.

[TheSassySquatch]

I am sure we will see some of these contested mechs will appear redesigned eventually, just like all the others released so far.

[Twisted Power]

The reboot vid has a warhammer in it. So how could that NOT be copyright but putting it in the game is? There will be a warhammer so you do not have to worry.

[Steven Dixon]

Actually that reboot video is why I think we probably won't see the unseen. It was starting to look like HG had given up on the whole unseen thing and that the legal issues were past. PGI made that reboot video to generate interest and used an unseen mech. But then IGN received a cease and desist letter from Harmony Gold because they were showing a video that infringed on their copyright (i.e. that demo video). So it's looking like HG is at it again, however it seems that IGN is the only site that received such a notice, plenty of other sites had that video and HG didn't seem to care.

Maybe it was just a single HG exec who saw that video and decided to make a fuss or maybe they are trying to get some leverage or maybe they only felt it necessary to flex their muscles. The Devs once said that the legal issues were over with the unseen but I believe that they made this comment before HG raised their ugly heads again, although I could be mistaken. So we'll have to wait and see, personally I doubt we will ever see the unseen.

[S n a k e]

Money is the bottom line and the only thing Harmony Gold is interested in is Moola and the many many ways they can get it.

[Vileus]

LegionZero, on 26 June 2012 - 01:07 PM, said:

In all honesty I think that people that withhold stuff like that are kids, on the other hand they've paid for the copyright or whatnot of those mechs/names, so from that point of view it's well within their right... and will gamers be pisse dwhen they can't pilot a warhammer... HELL YEAH!!! but people are entitled to dig their own graves like that i suppose

Mechwarrior and is franchises will never go away completely, especially since it's a marketable product. Intellectual property is a big deal with compaines these days, lets just hope that whomever holds them is sure no one else tarnishes the good name of Mechwarrior and good games come out of said intellectual property.

[Vechs]

In their defense, an IP holder HAS TO BE VERY AGGRESSIVE with defending their IPs, otherwise they can legally lose them.

It might not seem fair or make sense to normal people, but they are just operating within the system we have in place.

[Insidious Johnson]

Whatever Harmony Crap has done in the past to gain cred was overshadowed by just one lawsuit. Screw 'em. They are bad neighbors. They should be run the hell out of the neighborhood. Oh, sure they had a right to sue. They had a right to incur the wrath of fans from both genres. They also have the right to wander off alone and die, because we have the right to be pissed...and that will NEVER be unseen.

[Kanatta Jing]

Twisted Power, on 26 June 2012 - 02:34 PM, said:

The reboot vid has a warhammer in it. So how could that NOT be copyright but putting it in the game is? There will be a warhammer so you do not have to worry.

That reboot vid belongs to Mechwarrior 5, a game that has been abandoned.

[Steven Dixon]

Personally I don't blame a company for defending their copyright, if they don't then they lose it. But I don't really agree with the courts assertion that HG is the legal copyright holder of the 'unseen' (they didn't create the images they just licensed them the same way FASA did). The problem is that Japanese copyright law is a bit different from US copyright law so FASA got screwed, FASA should have hired a better lawyer. However it has been many years since I looked up the case details, my memory might be biased.

[Joseph Mallan]

captn rentoshi, on 26 June 2012 - 01:21 PM, said:

How about instead of complaining about how old favorite designs are not being used, we come up with our own designs inspired by them, something like a remix or sampling of those venerable designs. (Just a crazy idea ) yes? no? maybe? huh?

This is happening in the fan art forum. Check it out. It's the Charger thread. There is some very good art in there!

[Ian]

Quote

If I remember correctly, Harmony Gold didn't create Robotech or DBZ, they just recut Robotech and dubbed it (or more accuratly they didn't create Macross, they recut it and renamed it Robotech), same with DBZ. The Japanese company that created Macross (and the warhammer/tomahawk, and other unseen) sold FASA the rights to use their images in their game. Later after Robotech became a huge success HG began claiming that they had all the rights to use those images in the US. Japanese courts said that HG was wrong, but US courts said they were right, so FASA lost. FASA and HG made a deal and the Maurader, Warhammer, ect became the 'Unseen'.

I'm not privy to the actual details of this case, so their could be more going on than their seems, but ya it does seem a little childish. I took 2 years of law and I understand that companies have to be zealous in the defense of their copyrights (Disney once sued an orphanage because they had Disney characters painted on their walls), if companies aren't zealous they will go the way of Refrigerator (ice boxes weren't always known as refrigerators). But still HG does seem a little petty.

Quote

Personally I don't blame a company for defending their copyright, if they don't then they lose it. But I don't really agree with the courts assertion that HG is the legal copyright holder of the 'unseen' (they didn't create the images they just licensed them the same way FASA did). The problem is that Japanese copyright law is a bit different from US copyright law so FASA got screwed, FASA should have hired a better lawyer. However it has been many years since I looked up the case details, my memory might be biased.

Close but not quite. In the end FASA did not lose their case. They did not have to pay Harmony Gold any damages. However since Harmony Gold could just re-sue in another court FASA did agree to not use those images again. For while they would win again, the Legal fees cost them far far too much. No small game company can afford that.

Harmony Gold is almost synonymous with frivolous law suit to push their 'worldwide exclusive contract' as far as it will go. They have world wide exclusive distribution rights. Their rights cover no derivative work at all. This does not stop them from throwing Cease and Desists around as if they grew on trees. Since most small companies cannot afford the legal fees to win, that's as far as it goes.

[redplauge]

well in my mind the Japanese company owns the copyright for all of the unseen. hg only bought the rights to reshow the the shows.
also while i like robotech and most of the rest; what they did to to the entire series is almost a slap in the face to the creators of macross, southern cross, and masopedia (cant remember how to spell it, i hope im close)

[Endo Steel]

captn rentoshi, on 26 June 2012 - 01:21 PM, said:

How about instead of complaining about how old favorite designs are not being used, we come up with our own designs inspired by them, something like a remix or sampling of those venerable designs. (Just a crazy idea ) yes? no? maybe? huh?

That's not how IP works, I'm afraid.

The thing is, HG doesn't hold a copyright on the Warhammer, Marauder, or any of the mechs themselves. They hold a copyright on the APPEARANCE of those mechs. So any giant robot design that looks similar to any of them could still be sued. And HG has enough money to keep suing you and losing until you run out of money. It's a very ugly business, but if things continue as they are now, there will never be another design in mechwarrior that looks similar to any of the unseen. Even brand new designs will have to be careful that they don't get too close.