124 replies to this topic

[Rebas Kradd]

There was a certain marketing brilliance in PGI's early decision to make assaults as common as lights and mediums in the early days of the game. A skeleton-crew developer with sparse funds can't please everyone. They have to make money, and not everyone wants the "full BT experience" that the lore-fans have often wished upon the game...grinding through the weight classes before "earning" an assault, keeping mediums as the workhorses of the battlefield. Like it or not, MWO stands or falls on people's access to their favorite chassis. Be it the Kit Fox or the Dire Wolf, that's what players want in their pug matches.

However, Community Warfare is not pug matches. It's the place for lore to make itself felt.

Maybe I'm alone in this, but it has never felt right from a BT perspective that assaults are as common a sight as mediums. The idea that resource-strapped Inner Sphere units or quasi-Communist Clans would spend their 100-ton walking prizefighters on distant, backwater worlds with no overall significance strikes me as unlikely. No real military would do that. Bad allocation of materials. Such worlds would be more likely left to the fates of mediums and the occasional heavy. I've longed for the restrained, immersive trueness of fighting (and fighting in) smaller mechs in the beginning stages of war, with the glimpse of an Atlas silhouette a foreboding, cold-sweat-inducing shock to the tired Kit Fox pilot with an arm hanging off by threads.

Yet CW as it's planned now doesn't have room for this dynamic. Additionally, with Clan mechs so dominant (especially in the heavy bracket), there is the very real probability of CW becoming a Clans bonanza rather than the back-and-forth stalemate it eventually turned into (and which good game design should allow for). I realize that the 240-ton dropdeck makes some limitations, but they don't go very far.

If you want to remain somewhat true to lore, it really is just ludicrous that CW should allow even half a match to be assaults. They should be a rarity on the battlefield. Want to bring your Dire Wolf to the fight? You're gonna pay for it. Hope you've got those Mist Lynxes mastered up. CW has been cited as the haven for hardcore players...well, hardcore players want real, hard, calculated decisions and a distinct progression to their combat experience. (And in the category of assaults, I do include Timberwolves on principle, if not on technicality.)

PGI: You should give some of your worlds lower caps for dropdecks, allowing you to designate "less significant" worlds that generally need to be conquered by mediums and lights. Maybe just the border worlds. There are plenty of worlds that can still use the 240 mark, but backwater rocks like Baxley should not be seeing twenty-four Timberwolves showing up to battles. It's just...odd. Out of place. Immersion-breaking. Shattering the fourth wall with a pair of PPCs and dual Gauss shots.

Creating lower-limit planets would accomplish several things:

• Create "terrain" and texture to the galaxy, allowing corridors and bastions and sieges to enter the overall game;
  
• Force players to make significant decisions about which mechs to deploy;
  
• Incentivize lights and mediums and their roles;
  
• Give poorer pilots an entry point into CW;
  
• Validate assaults by making them a true threat to poor pilots of smaller mechs, not just fodder for their counterparts on the red team;
  
• Narrow the gap between IS and Clans a little, since the wider selection of IS mechs allows their pilots to work the dropdeck combinations to better advantage;
  
• Supply a genuine lore feeling to the game, removing the icky "all mechs are equal" taste that's bugged some of us for a long time.

The advantage of various dropdeck limits:

• 195 tons: Prohibits either an IS or Clan pilot from bringing two assaults to a match (80+80+20+20=200). Doesn't matter that the current 240 limit would force them to bring two Locusts as well. People would still do it, and it will still feel artificial and weird and not MechWarrior.
  
• 185 tons: Keeps matches from becoming 50% Timberwolves (75+75+20+20=190). I honestly don't see how you're expecting anything else. I wouldn't do anything else.
  
• 175 tons: Prevents the ECM on the Hellbringer from skewing the war, at least until the Clans get a 20-tonner (65+65+25+25=180). Any lower and you're actually preventing players from using a paid-for chassis (the Dire Wolf - 100+25+25+25=175) in CW, and that's harder to justify from a business perspective. But I also don't see an ECM redesign in the future. This limit also prevents the one-two punch of Timberwolf and Stormcrow (75+55+25+25=180) which will likely become the go-to for CW players fighting for the Clans.

If this seems excessively prohibitive, remember that it's just for some planets. Players should have to EARN leeway with their dropdecks by conquering less central planets and building up to the more central ones.



In lieu of any kind of dynamic economy or logistical elements, this is a good method to hand some kind of nuance to an otherwise barebones CW experience without needing to add to your relatively static system. I do hope that there is still time to incorporate such an idea into CW before its Beta period ends.

Thoughts? Accusations of heresy?

Edited by Rebas Kradd, 04 December 2014 - 04:27 PM.

[Senor Cataclysmo]

This a wicked idea. I really like this. This pushes my battletech fluff buttons in all the right ways. I can't see any disadvantages. The option to have bigger drops is there, but only in important fights (or maybe it could be something you could earn by conquering supply routes). *applause*

[Brody319]

no

[Rebas Kradd]

Brody319, on 04 December 2014 - 04:27 PM, said:

no

Any reasoning? Genuinely curious.

[Peter2k]

Cool idea that is worth to try out
I wouldn't mind breaking up my usual drop deck a little for something different
Just belongs into the feature suggestion section

[Brody319]

Rebas Kradd, on 04 December 2014 - 04:27 PM, said:

Any reasoning? Genuinely curious.

I think it would greatly restrict any kind of play. Yea it would be more faithful to the lore, but it would just further squeeze the drop deck possibilities. it doesn't matter what restrictions you place, people will find the greatest advantage they can and exploit it. Just a fact of online gaming. every edge over your opponent that can be taken will be taken.

[Rebas Kradd]

Brody319, on 04 December 2014 - 04:33 PM, said:

I think it would greatly restrict any kind of play. Yea it would be more faithful to the lore, but it would just further squeeze the drop deck possibilities. it doesn't matter what restrictions you place, people will find the greatest advantage they can and exploit it. Just a fact of online gaming. every edge over your opponent that can be taken will be taken.

I guess the best safeguard against too much of that is only using lower limits on certain planets. Border worlds, for instance; pushing further into a house's territory should both allow and require more resources.

[Brody319]

Rebas Kradd, on 04 December 2014 - 04:36 PM, said:

I guess the best safeguard against too much of that is only using lower limits on certain planets. Border worlds, for instance; pushing further into a house's territory should both allow and require more resources.

I think if you give rewards daily for a faction owning a planet then it would be fine to cap the maximum tonnage on Some planets. Like if owning a border world would give all the pilots in that faction a daily reward of say 1 million c-bills, while owning a planet closer to a home world with a higher drop limit like 250, then it should reward more like 4-5 million. that would make it clear some planets are more valuable to a war effort and thus it would be allowed to have the mechs that drop on those planets be bigger.

I just think if there is no distinction between planets besides their location then why place random weight limits?

[Davers]

Rebas Kradd, on 04 December 2014 - 04:36 PM, said:

I guess the best safeguard against too much of that is only using lower limits on certain planets. Border worlds, for instance; pushing further into a house's territory should both allow and require more resources.

Clanners will say anything to avoid having to use their light mechs.

[Alistair Winter]

I like it. The problem with the 240 cap is that the heavy mech takes the role medium mechs are supposed to have. Medium mechs are supposed to be the versatile choice and more common than heavy and assault mechs. But with a 240 ton cap, you'll probably see 2 or 3 heavy mechs per deck fairly often.

I really have limited sympathy for people who say "Well, I'm an assault mech specialist." Orly? Piloting the most heavily armed and armoured unit in the game is your specialty? It's like being a martial artist whose specialty is being the biggest person in their weight classes. Like this girl here, Gabby Garcia.

But I'm sure there will be tears if "assault mech specialists" have to endure 3 Mist Lynx matches to play their Dire Wolf. I'd rather let them take a Dire Wolf and a Warhawk and put a 5 minute delay between them, to make sure that they're severely penalized, but not forced to suffer through Mist Lynx matches and screw their teams over because they hate it so much.

[Prussian Havoc]

Excellent ideas... from your keyboard to PGI's ears!

[girl on fire]

I only pilot lights, I never really saw assaults as a goal I should be working towards, I don't think that would change even if that's what the meta game called for. I know i'm not alone in that. I love the speed.

mediums really are out of place in the current game, though. too slow and large to be effective at fast manoeuvres and not tanky enough to hang with the bigger mechs. I sort feel the same about the shadow cat, TBH. I tried it but it didn't suit my play style. Too big, too slow.

[Logan Pryde]

As is, if you take a Direwolf in your dropdeck you are going to have to compensate for that choice by taking a light as well. Especially given the few chassis (tonnage) choices the clans have compared to IS, that fact alone will be prohibitive to seeing clan assaults roaming the CW battlefields.

[Davegt27]

When I saw the title of the post I thought it would be about tactics

But you’re talking about a whole new game

I sort of like your ideas but I think I want the game designers to be the game designers

Let’s give this evolution of the game a shot

[Johnny Z]

I like the idea of a lower drop deck weight for sure, exactly for the reasons in the OP. Assault class mechs woulnt be used often, only for attack and defense of heavy contention points.

[Timuroslav]

Rebas Kradd, on 04 December 2014 - 04:13 PM, said:

However, Community Warfare is not pug matches. It's the place for lore to make itself felt.

Creating lower-limit planets would accomplish several things:

• Create "terrain" and texture to the galaxy, allowing corridors and bastions and sieges to enter the overall game;
  
• Force players to make significant decisions about which mechs to deploy;
  
• Incentivize lights and mediums and their roles;
  
• Give poorer pilots an entry point into CW;
  
• Validate assaults by making them a true threat to poor pilots of smaller mechs, not just fodder for their counterparts on the red team;
  
• Narrow the gap between IS and Clans a little, since the wider selection of IS mechs allows their pilots to work the dropdeck combinations to better advantage;
  
• Supply a genuine lore feeling to the game, removing the icky "all mechs are equal" taste that's bugged some of us for a long time.

• "Create "terrain" and texture to the galaxy, allowing corridors and bastions and sieges to enter the overall game;"

I don't know what this quote means.




You're not alone. There needs to be a push to make mediums and Light mechs the norm.
There is a Big opportunity to put Lore in the game and give the game A lot of Character. To me CW is where Lore Should Matter the Most. It's what Battletech-Mechwarrior Have over Planet Side 2, Actual good solid story.

I think you skipped over faction mech restrictions and Mech economics, but yea it sounds like you're asking for gigantic maps with huge opportunities to strategize. Which, I like. I don't expect it to be in Invasion mode. Maybe, a future siege mode. I definitely agree with your tonnage limits though. Everyone is just going to max heavy mechs sigh.

If you don't restrict player options they're just going to min max. Also Yea, I don't want to see everyone piloting Dragons and Ravens That's a real real Buzzkill for those of us who chose a faction based on mechs and lore.

Edited by Timuroslav, 05 December 2014 - 11:35 AM.

[DocBach]

They had a similar system in MPBT3025, and they were generally the more accessible border worlds specifically for the reasons you spelled out -- to let players with less money for less expensive stuff to engage in the game.

I don't usually agree with much of what you say, but bravo to this idea and post.

[Greenjulius]

The result of a tonnage reduction to ~175 is turning clan teams into stormcrows backed up by lights. It's an interesting idea, but we all know what will happen. Shadowhawks vs Stormcrows 50% of the time, with lights sprinkled in as filler. Most likely kitfoxes and firestarters.

The number of SSRM6 boating stormcrows would be epic, as they would rarely need to worry about the counter to SSRM spam; heavies and assaults.

Edited by Greenjulius, 04 December 2014 - 06:53 PM.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

I like it, the only question is how many planets will we end up seeing per boarder?

If we have two per boarder then I'm not sure this would fit;

but if the devs are able to have something more dynamic, such as potentially having two high value planets and then other smaller strategic boarder worlds, region of space, and/or small outpost(s), than hell yeah!

Bring in the lower limits for those!

[N0MAD]

Rebas Kradd, on 04 December 2014 - 04:13 PM, said:

However, Community Warfare is not pug matches. It's the place for lore to make itself felt.

Thoughts? Accusations of heresy?

Considering a small percentage of players play group Q or groups (Pgi has given us numbers on this) CW is going to be basically just that Pugland, the added feature of letting single players play CW confirms this.
Telling this majority of players they can only play mechs of a certain size or a limited drop deck would basically kill CW.
Even the 240 is going to be to restrictive to most casual gamers, yes i know that its been stated that CW is for ummm the most ardent no holds barred but again im going to mention that the % of hardcore team players is the smaller percentage of the player base, start putting in to many restrictions to please a few you will lose the mass.