124 replies to this topic

[Fut]

Brody319, on 04 December 2014 - 04:41 PM, said:

I just think if there is no distinction between planets besides their location then why place random weight limits?

Because it adds to the feel and immersion of the game.
CW is meant to be a place for the Role-Players - let's start adding in some Role-Playing elements already.

Quote

To re-emphasis what has been mentioned before. Community Warfare is primarily directed to role-playing and unit gameplay. It is because of this that groups in CW (Unit Groups) will consist of only players within the same unit. A team can have players from multiple units but groups themselves will only consist of players who are in the same group/faction.

[Andi Nagasia]

i think it would be cool but not as a balance tool,
on its own having lower tonnages for less strategic assets due to logistics is cool,
having lower tonnages the farther you move into enemy territory due to logistics is cool,
this is a future MWO topic and i under stand that and it is cool,
But,....

i dont agree with using this as a balance tool for Clan,
1) an IS Player with the 240Ton(4Mech) limit can take 2LCT(they are awesome with Quirks) and 2AS7's,
2) a clanner with 240Ton(4Mech) limit can only take 1DWF(as clan dont have a 20Ton to fill the gap),
3) this Topic assumes(balance wise) that Clan are still stronger than IS(has to be confirmed in CW to be true)
i would like to see true balance with Quirks, and any restrictions for game benefit play not balance,

[Fut]

Andi Nagasia, on 05 December 2014 - 11:07 AM, said:

i think it would be cool but not as a balance tool,
on its own having lower tonnages for less strategic assets due to logistics is cool,
having lower tonnages the farther you move into enemy territory due to logistics is cool,
this is a future MWO topic and i under stand that and it is cool,
But,....

i dont agree with using this as a balance tool for Clan,

My thoughts exactly.

Also, I think the idea that some planets (important locations, or worlds that are constantly changing hands) should have their Weight Cap increased.

Edit:

One last thing. If I had my way, it wouldn't be mandatory to bring 4 Mechs. The Drop Ship has space for 4 Mechs, so you wouldn't be able to bring more than 4... But there should be nothing stopping a person from only bringing 2 or 3 mechs to battle - if those Mechs are within the weight restrictions for that particular planet/match.

Edited by Fut, 05 December 2014 - 11:12 AM.

[Stormfury]

Rebas Kradd, on 04 December 2014 - 04:13 PM, said:

Maybe I'm alone in this, but it has never felt right from a BT perspective that assaults are as common a sight as mediums.

You're not alone in this . It's always bothered me that Assault Mech Online existed. With the costs and expenses of war, I believe Mediums, based on lore, should represent about 40% of the mechs on the field. Then Lights, Heavies, and Assaults each getting less %. An assault mech based on lore was the exception and a damn scary one when you saw it. We see so many, it's eh an Atlas or eh a Dire Wolf.

I don't know how they can make the Medium class better without the true 'role warfare' implementation that seems to have been long forgotten, but I'd love to get to a point where Mediums are more prevalent and seeing one maybe two assaults the norm. Ironically, This should also make matches more brawl feast (something PGI claimed to want) than LRM boat feasts people complain about constantly as the mediums simply wouldn't be able to carry enough missiles to sit back for 10 minutes and unload LRM after LRM.

That being said, I'd also like to see some planets have value such as which ever faction holds X planet has access to X, Y, Z resources. Where resources are mech chassis and possibly weapon systems. Ie. You want to buy a Raven, better take the factory in Liao space. These planets would have value and a reason to fight over them plus likely would have bigger tonnage limits due to the importance over some back water planet that happens to be along the border of an enemy.

I know that's a dream long gone and the casual/non-lore fans wouldn't enjoy it, so I've resigned myself to more World of Battlemechs when CW comes out. Still would be nice to have a discount on mechs or something should you take their factory planet. They really need SOMETHING to offer other than being a specific color and granting faction rep that unlocks titles and little else. IMO.

[AlmightyAeng]

Rebas Kradd, on 04 December 2014 - 04:13 PM, said:

Thoughts? Accusations of heresy?

I was 99% certain that Russ said they'd be doing exactly that...with different worlds have different tonnages...

Has that changed?

[Bishop Steiner]

Rebas Kradd, on 04 December 2014 - 04:13 PM, said:

There was a certain marketing brilliance in PGI's early decision to make assaults as common as lights and mediums in the early days of the game. A skeleton-crew developer with sparse funds can't please everyone. They have to make money, and not everyone wants the "full BT experience" that the lore-fans have often wished upon the game...grinding through the weight classes before "earning" an assault, keeping mediums as the workhorses of the battlefield. Like it or not, MWO stands or falls on people's access to their favorite chassis. Be it the Kit Fox or the Dire Wolf, that's what players want in their pug matches.

However, Community Warfare is not pug matches. It's the place for lore to make itself felt.

Maybe I'm alone in this, but it has never felt right from a BT perspective that assaults are as common a sight as mediums. The idea that resource-strapped Inner Sphere units or quasi-Communist Clans would spend their 100-ton walking prizefighters on distant, backwater worlds with no overall significance strikes me as unlikely. No real military would do that. Bad allocation of materials. Such worlds would be more likely left to the fates of mediums and the occasional heavy. I've longed for the restrained, immersive trueness of fighting (and fighting in) smaller mechs in the beginning stages of war, with the glimpse of an Atlas silhouette a foreboding, cold-sweat-inducing shock to the tired Kit Fox pilot with an arm hanging off by threads.

Yet CW as it's planned now doesn't have room for this dynamic. Additionally, with Clan mechs so dominant (especially in the heavy bracket), there is the very real probability of CW becoming a Clans bonanza rather than the back-and-forth stalemate it eventually turned into (and which good game design should allow for). I realize that the 240-ton dropdeck makes some limitations, but they don't go very far.

If you want to remain somewhat true to lore, it really is just ludicrous that CW should allow even half a match to be assaults. They should be a rarity on the battlefield. Want to bring your Dire Wolf to the fight? You're gonna pay for it. Hope you've got those Mist Lynxes mastered up. CW has been cited as the haven for hardcore players...well, hardcore players want real, hard, calculated decisions and a distinct progression to their combat experience. (And in the category of assaults, I do include Timberwolves on principle, if not on technicality.)

PGI: You should give some of your worlds lower caps for dropdecks, allowing you to designate "less significant" worlds that generally need to be conquered by mediums and lights. Maybe just the border worlds. There are plenty of worlds that can still use the 240 mark, but backwater rocks like Baxley should not be seeing twenty-four Timberwolves showing up to battles. It's just...odd. Out of place. Immersion-breaking. Shattering the fourth wall with a pair of PPCs and dual Gauss shots.

Creating lower-limit planets would accomplish several things:

• Create "terrain" and texture to the galaxy, allowing corridors and bastions and sieges to enter the overall game;
  
• Force players to make significant decisions about which mechs to deploy;
  
• Incentivize lights and mediums and their roles;
  
• Give poorer pilots an entry point into CW;
  
• Validate assaults by making them a true threat to poor pilots of smaller mechs, not just fodder for their counterparts on the red team;
  
• Narrow the gap between IS and Clans a little, since the wider selection of IS mechs allows their pilots to work the dropdeck combinations to better advantage;
  
• Supply a genuine lore feeling to the game, removing the icky "all mechs are equal" taste that's bugged some of us for a long time.

The advantage of various dropdeck limits:

• 195 tons: Prohibits either an IS or Clan pilot from bringing two assaults to a match (80+80+20+20=200). Doesn't matter that the current 240 limit would force them to bring two Locusts as well. People would still do it, and it will still feel artificial and weird and not MechWarrior.
  
• 185 tons: Keeps matches from becoming 50% Timberwolves (75+75+20+20=190). I honestly don't see how you're expecting anything else. I wouldn't do anything else.
  
• 175 tons: Prevents the ECM on the Hellbringer from skewing the war, at least until the Clans get a 20-tonner (65+65+25+25=180). Any lower and you're actually preventing players from using a paid-for chassis (the Dire Wolf - 100+25+25+25=175) in CW, and that's harder to justify from a business perspective. But I also don't see an ECM redesign in the future. This limit also prevents the one-two punch of Timberwolf and Stormcrow (75+55+25+25=180) which will likely become the go-to for CW players fighting for the Clans.

If this seems excessively prohibitive, remember that it's just for some planets. Players should have to EARN leeway with their dropdecks by conquering less central planets and building up to the more central ones.




In lieu of any kind of dynamic economy or logistical elements, this is a good method to hand some kind of nuance to an otherwise barebones CW experience without needing to add to your relatively static system. I do hope that there is still time to incorporate such an idea into CW before its Beta period ends.

Thoughts? Accusations of heresy?

would love to see a 80-150 ton drop deck, to represent things like the Davion Light Guards, for instance. Would also be cool with some missions having a 300 ton top end.

[Rebas Kradd]

Andi Nagasia, on 05 December 2014 - 11:07 AM, said:

i think it would be cool but not as a balance tool,
on its own having lower tonnages for less strategic assets due to logistics is cool,
having lower tonnages the farther you move into enemy territory due to logistics is cool,
this is a future MWO topic and i under stand that and it is cool,
But,....

i dont agree with using this as a balance tool for Clan,
1) an IS Player with the 240Ton(4Mech) limit can take 2LCT(they are awesome with Quirks) and 2AS7's,
2) a clanner with 240Ton(4Mech) limit can only take 1DWF(as clan dont have a 20Ton to fill the gap),
3) this Topic assumes(balance wise) that Clan are still stronger than IS(has to be confirmed in CW to be true)
i would like to see true balance with Quirks, and any restrictions for game benefit play not balance,

There's no real doubt that the Clans are stronger than IS. The last tests by Russ confirmed it, although the gap was narrowing.

A Dire Wolf beats an Atlas every time. I haven't seen anyone suggest otherwise. And a 240-ton limit also allows two Timberwolves and a Stormcrow, which is likely to be far more common than any dropdeck with a Dire Wolf. These are insane combinations when stacked up to their IS counterparts. Everyone knows it.

Additionally...there's the idea that Clans aren't SUPPOSED to be balanced. In lore, Clan technology was superior and everyone knew it. The IS forced them to a stalemate largely through the Clans' own less-than-efficient combat strategies. PGI faced an impossible task with this game: how do you balance IS and Clans without making Clans pointlessly equal with IS and ticking off hardcore Clan players? Limited dropdecks might provide them a way out of that dilemma, albeit an artificial one.

But...for what it's worth, the balancing perk is only a secondary benefit. The real reason I'd like to see this feature is because it's just ridiculous for Clans to be sending teams of 50% Timberwolves onto any random backwater rock where there are no significant enemy forces or strategic value. Not to mention such a situation being pretty intimidating for newer/poorer players.

[Bishop Steiner]

Rebas Kradd, on 05 December 2014 - 11:20 AM, said:

There's no real doubt that the Clans are stronger than IS. The last tests by Russ confirmed it, although the gap was narrowing.

A Dire Wolf beats an Atlas every time. I haven't seen anyone suggest otherwise. And a 240-ton limit also allows two Timberwolves and a Stormcrow, which is likely to be far more common than any dropdeck with a Dire Wolf. These are insane combinations when stacked up to their IS counterparts. Everyone knows it.

Additionally...there's the idea that Clans aren't SUPPOSED to be balanced. In lore, Clan technology was superior and everyone knew it. The IS forced them to a stalemate largely through the Clans' own less-than-efficient combat strategies. PGI faced an impossible task with this game: how do you balance IS and Clans without making Clans pointlessly equal with IS and ticking off hardcore Clan players? Limited dropdecks might provide them a way out of that dilemma, albeit an artificial one.

But...for what it's worth, the balancing perk is only a secondary benefit. The real reason I'd like to see this feature is because it's just ridiculous for Clans to be sending teams of 50% Timberwolves onto any random backwater rock where there are no significant enemy forces or strategic value. Not to mention such a situation being pretty intimidating for newer/poorer players.

Base Clan Dropdeck will be 3 StormCrows and a Timberwolf, count on it.

Stormcrows have about 90% the combat efficacy of the TW, and much better tactical flexibility. The only real question is WHERE, in the dropdeck the Wolf is loaded. For me, it would be the Hammer at the end, others might use it up front, particularly S variants, for JJs.

Sadly, the Metas are already forming.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 05 December 2014 - 11:24 AM.

[Brody319]

Rebas Kradd, on 05 December 2014 - 11:20 AM, said:

There's no real doubt that the Clans are stronger than IS. The last tests by Russ confirmed it, although the gap was narrowing.

A Dire Wolf beats an Atlas every time. I haven't seen anyone suggest otherwise. And a 240-ton limit also allows two Timberwolves and a Stormcrow, which is likely to be far more common than any dropdeck with a Dire Wolf. These are insane combinations when stacked up to their IS counterparts. Everyone knows it.

Additionally...there's the idea that Clans aren't SUPPOSED to be balanced. In lore, Clan technology was superior and everyone knew it. The IS forced them to a stalemate largely through the Clans' own less-than-efficient combat strategies. PGI faced an impossible task with this game: how do you balance IS and Clans without making Clans pointlessly equal with IS and ticking off hardcore Clan players? Limited dropdecks might provide them a way out of that dilemma, albeit an artificial one.

But...for what it's worth, the balancing perk is only a secondary benefit. The real reason I'd like to see this feature is because it's just ridiculous for Clans to be sending teams of 50% Timberwolves onto any random backwater rock where there are no significant enemy forces or strategic value. Not to mention such a situation being pretty intimidating for newer/poorer players.

the last test was for like a day and they even said that Clanners have a higher elo on average than IS

[jaxjace]

LOVE this idea

[Brody319]

Fut, on 05 December 2014 - 10:57 AM, said:

Because it adds to the feel and immersion of the game.
CW is meant to be a place for the Role-Players - let's start adding in some Role-Playing elements already.

I mean its an arbitrary thing with no real reason to exist. If there was a clearly defined reason for it, like having a daily injection of c-bills for faction members for every planet they owned and each planet having its own reward value then Yea having a different weight cap would be fine. but just having it to have it seems pointless.

[Almond Brown]

N0MAD, on 04 December 2014 - 07:50 PM, said:

Considering a small percentage of players play group Q or groups (Pgi has given us numbers on this) CW is going to be basically just that Pugland, the added feature of letting single players play CW confirms this.
Telling this majority of players they can only play mechs of a certain size or a limited drop deck would basically kill CW.
Even the 240 is going to be to restrictive to most casual gamers, yes i know that its been stated that CW is for ummm the most ardent no holds barred but again im going to mention that the % of hardcore team players is the smaller percentage of the player base, start putting in to many restrictions to please a few you will lose the mass.

240t allows 1 of each weight class if desired. Not all Assault Mechs weigh 100t btw.

The 15t low/high variation in weight classes, save the 20t spread in Assaults, makes the 240t perfect for all but those who "just have to have the heaviest of any weight class". Just because.

[Rebas Kradd]

Ghost Badger, on 05 December 2014 - 11:15 AM, said:

I was 99% certain that Russ said they'd be doing exactly that...with different worlds have different tonnages...

Now that I think about it, yes, I do think he said something like that. But I'd hope to see it sooner rather than later, since it sounds like it wouldn't require any extra programming.

Since CW is going to have an Open Beta period, are they going to reset the map once Beta ends? Russ?

[Bishop Steiner]

Brody319, on 05 December 2014 - 11:22 AM, said:

the last test was for like a day and they even said that Clanners have a higher elo on average than IS

3 hours, actually.

The outliers being Meta and DakkaWhales, Timber Wolves and Storm Crows. Which is why the only way you see anything but TWs and SCs in serious dropdecks will be if a few members want to add a Dire Wolf or ECM carrier to the mix.

The 3x SC/ 1x TW dropdeck even without ECM, will pretty much roll over anything the IS can counter. Which is frustrating since pretty much any other Clan MEch is actually pretty even or sub to IS mechs.

[Andi Nagasia]

Brody319, on 05 December 2014 - 11:22 AM, said:

the last test was for like a day and they even said that Clanners have a higher elo on average than IS

yes but the numbers THE NUMBERS!!!, so lets look at the numbers
PGI stated the final total was 37-63 in favor of clans, but clans also had a 8-12% higher ELO,
what happens if we remove the 10%? 47-53 in favor of the clans, so clearly Clans are still way too powerful,

[Bishop Steiner]

Brody319, on 05 December 2014 - 11:27 AM, said:

I mean its an arbitrary thing with no real reason to exist. If there was a clearly defined reason for it, like having a daily injection of c-bills for faction members for every planet they owned and each planet having its own reward value then Yea having a different weight cap would be fine. but just having it to have it seems pointless.

while that would be fine, some of us are also just good for arbitrary elements that make the game more than the TDM it is now. Whether CW/Invasion and Future modes achieve that, well, we'll see in couple of weeks.

[Kain Demos]

Alistair Winter, on 04 December 2014 - 05:37 PM, said:

I like it. The problem with the 240 cap is that the heavy mech takes the role medium mechs are supposed to have. Medium mechs are supposed to be the versatile choice and more common than heavy and assault mechs. But with a 240 ton cap, you'll probably see 2 or 3 heavy mechs per deck fairly often.

I really have limited sympathy for people who say "Well, I'm an assault mech specialist." Orly? Piloting the most heavily armed and armoured unit in the game is your specialty? It's like being a martial artist whose specialty is being the biggest person in their weight classes. Like this girl here, Gabby Garcia.

But I'm sure there will be tears if "assault mech specialists" have to endure 3 Mist Lynx matches to play their Dire Wolf. I'd rather let them take a Dire Wolf and a Warhawk and put a 5 minute delay between them, to make sure that they're severely penalized, but not forced to suffer through Mist Lynx matches and screw their teams over because they hate it so much.

When 240 tons, no 1/1/1/1 was specified I remember all the tears in the feedback thread.

"But I only pilot Assaults/Heavies, don't force me to play 'mechs I don't like"

What Mechwarrior games have they been playing I ask? Tonnage limits have always been a part of the games going back to the first one I played, MW2.

If you can only play well in one chassis then its time to step up. The smaller 'mechs have a much higher skill ceiling and as such I've been in my Adders a lot lately getting ready for CW.

[WarHippy]

Rebas Kradd, on 04 December 2014 - 04:13 PM, said:

There was a certain marketing brilliance in PGI's early decision to make assaults as common as lights and mediums in the early days of the game. A skeleton-crew developer with sparse funds can't please everyone. They have to make money, and not everyone wants the "full BT experience" that the lore-fans have often wished upon the game...grinding through the weight classes before "earning" an assault, keeping mediums as the workhorses of the battlefield. Like it or not, MWO stands or falls on people's access to their favorite chassis. Be it the Kit Fox or the Dire Wolf, that's what players want in their pug matches.

However, Community Warfare is not pug matches. It's the place for lore to make itself felt.

Maybe I'm alone in this, but it has never felt right from a BT perspective that assaults are as common a sight as mediums. The idea that resource-strapped Inner Sphere units or quasi-Communist Clans would spend their 100-ton walking prizefighters on distant, backwater worlds with no overall significance strikes me as unlikely. No real military would do that. Bad allocation of materials. Such worlds would be more likely left to the fates of mediums and the occasional heavy. I've longed for the restrained, immersive trueness of fighting (and fighting in) smaller mechs in the beginning stages of war, with the glimpse of an Atlas silhouette a foreboding, cold-sweat-inducing shock to the tired Kit Fox pilot with an arm hanging off by threads.

Yet CW as it's planned now doesn't have room for this dynamic. Additionally, with Clan mechs so dominant (especially in the heavy bracket), there is the very real probability of CW becoming a Clans bonanza rather than the back-and-forth stalemate it eventually turned into (and which good game design should allow for). I realize that the 240-ton dropdeck makes some limitations, but they don't go very far.

If you want to remain somewhat true to lore, it really is just ludicrous that CW should allow even half a match to be assaults. They should be a rarity on the battlefield. Want to bring your Dire Wolf to the fight? You're gonna pay for it. Hope you've got those Mist Lynxes mastered up. CW has been cited as the haven for hardcore players...well, hardcore players want real, hard, calculated decisions and a distinct progression to their combat experience. (And in the category of assaults, I do include Timberwolves on principle, if not on technicality.)

PGI: You should give some of your worlds lower caps for dropdecks, allowing you to designate "less significant" worlds that generally need to be conquered by mediums and lights. Maybe just the border worlds. There are plenty of worlds that can still use the 240 mark, but backwater rocks like Baxley should not be seeing twenty-four Timberwolves showing up to battles. It's just...odd. Out of place. Immersion-breaking. Shattering the fourth wall with a pair of PPCs and dual Gauss shots.

Creating lower-limit planets would accomplish several things:

• Create "terrain" and texture to the galaxy, allowing corridors and bastions and sieges to enter the overall game;
  
• Force players to make significant decisions about which mechs to deploy;
  
• Incentivize lights and mediums and their roles;
  
• Give poorer pilots an entry point into CW;
  
• Validate assaults by making them a true threat to poor pilots of smaller mechs, not just fodder for their counterparts on the red team;
  
• Narrow the gap between IS and Clans a little, since the wider selection of IS mechs allows their pilots to work the dropdeck combinations to better advantage;
  
• Supply a genuine lore feeling to the game, removing the icky "all mechs are equal" taste that's bugged some of us for a long time.

The advantage of various dropdeck limits:

• 195 tons: Prohibits either an IS or Clan pilot from bringing two assaults to a match (80+80+20+20=200). Doesn't matter that the current 240 limit would force them to bring two Locusts as well. People would still do it, and it will still feel artificial and weird and not MechWarrior.
  
• 185 tons: Keeps matches from becoming 50% Timberwolves (75+75+20+20=190). I honestly don't see how you're expecting anything else. I wouldn't do anything else.
  
• 175 tons: Prevents the ECM on the Hellbringer from skewing the war, at least until the Clans get a 20-tonner (65+65+25+25=180). Any lower and you're actually preventing players from using a paid-for chassis (the Dire Wolf - 100+25+25+25=175) in CW, and that's harder to justify from a business perspective. But I also don't see an ECM redesign in the future. This limit also prevents the one-two punch of Timberwolf and Stormcrow (75+55+25+25=180) which will likely become the go-to for CW players fighting for the Clans.

If this seems excessively prohibitive, remember that it's just for some planets. Players should have to EARN leeway with their dropdecks by conquering less central planets and building up to the more central ones.




In lieu of any kind of dynamic economy or logistical elements, this is a good method to hand some kind of nuance to an otherwise barebones CW experience without needing to add to your relatively static system. I do hope that there is still time to incorporate such an idea into CW before its Beta period ends.

Thoughts? Accusations of heresy?

They already said they plan on adding planets that have lower drop weights and some having higher drop weights with the 240 limit being the most common. For a sizable number of people 240 is borderline to small as it is, and having a bunch of planets in the 195 range would make for terrible play and a great deal of frustration for those who don't like a lot of smaller mechs.

[Kirkland Langue]

I like the idea of generically considering the 240T weight limit to reflect the level of logistics each faction is willing to put into capturing that planet.

Even if you don't ever "do" anything with this - just having that reason opens up a lot of potential. Consider this: By having such a reason, PGI could actually allow Core Planets to be attacked - but because the defenders have such a Logistical advantage, the teams could have incredibly lopsided weight limits. Maybe attackers are limited to 100T and defenders get up to 400T.

I like this kind of mechanic - giving the illusion of being able to fully kick a faction out of their space, but because of the realities of the situation - it's basically impossible.

EDIT: what I'm saying is that this allows for asymmetric battles to potentially take place. Even if something is a lopsided battle - you could just offer higher LP rewards for attacking such locations.

Edited by Kirkland Langue, 05 December 2014 - 11:45 AM.

[Kain Demos]

Andi Nagasia, on 05 December 2014 - 11:29 AM, said:

yes but the numbers THE NUMBERS!!!, so lets look at the numbers
PGI stated the final total was 37-63 in favor of clans, but clans also had a 8-12% higher ELO,
what happens if we remove the 10%? 47-53 in favor of the clans, so clearly Clans are still way too powerful,

It doesn't scale taht way. They said the way ELO works that was the predicted win rate of an even team which is why they were pleased with the results.

And if it did any results in the 45-55 range for either side wouldn't be "way too powerful/underpowered" because with the amoutn of variables at play 50/50 is a pipe dream, impossible, never going to happen.

Kirkland Langue, on 05 December 2014 - 11:35 AM, said:

I like the idea of generically considering the 240T weight limit to reflect the level of logistics each faction is willing to put into capturing that planet.

Even if you don't ever "do" anything with this - just having that reason opens up a lot of potential. Consider this: By having such a reason, PGI could actually allow Core Planets to be attacked - but because the defenders have such a Logistical advantage, the teams could have incredibly lopsided weight limits. Maybe attackers are limited to 100T and defenders get up to 400T.

I like this kind of mechanic - giving the illusion of being able to fully kick a faction out of their space, but because of the realities of the situation - it's basically impossible.

Man would that be fun.