23 replies to this topic

[SweetJackal]

As some of you might have recently read in the patch notes for the early patch tomorrow, the River City statues are getting removed to prevent players from getting stuck. This is a good thing but is only scratching the surface of a large issue with the current map design, indestructible terrain.

Right now in the game there are a number of pieces inside of maps that are invincible to mech movement or fire. Some of these objects are as small as trucks and trees and others as large as skyscrapers and how they are usually handled is simple, if it is big enough to block movement it is normally solid when dealing with collision and if it is small enough or weak enough to not impeed movement it has no collision (most of the time.)

Two problems exists with this approach. First being that we have a number of trucks, trees and buildings that will never show any damage, which harms immersion for those that care very deeply about it. Second being that there are small objects in the world that are treated as solid when they shouldn't be, the transport trucks on the Mining Collective are a good example of that.

So the easiest answer is to have these items properly tagged and allow them to be destroyed during the course of the game. The Official Word is that the netcode doesn't properly handle the possible destruction of many small objects at the same time though and this is thought of to be a major hurdle.

I don't see it that way as I see it as a challenge. If the netcode cannot handle having small objects on the map destroyed or handle displaying dynamic damage to the facade of a building then do not use the netcode. For things like damage appearing on the faces of a building due to collateral damage, trees being set on fire or knocked down, or the many small objects like cars and statues being crushed under foot or crumbling by weapons fire can all be handled by the client.

All of these effects are cosmetic in nature and having all of these effects synced up through the netcode provides very little meaningful change to the gameplay. Having the hit detection for cosmetic effects like this being handled purely by the client without needing any authorization from the servers enables for the effects to be treated like a single player game. Have my client determine what I see in terms of these effects and have my client keep track of it. It is already displaying where the enemy lasers, bullets and missiles are flying, let it determine what happens to the surrounding area on the terrain and what terrain objects collide with missed shots.

This means that a friendly might see me crush a car that I didn't crush on my screen. It might mean that the return fire from the enemy hits the trees I am hiding in and sets them ablaze on my screen but not on my opponents. It may mean that different players may see a slightly different path of knocked down trees or that a damaged building looks significantly different to different players.

But it also means that if I miss an SRM volley and it slams into the building behind my target that the building will bear the scars of that attack. It does mean that stomping through a parking lot gives a satisfying crunch of metal under my feet. It does mean that I see the energy weapons lighting the trees on fire around us. It means that I see the world as no longer being an unchanging set around us but rather an environment that bears our marks of passing.

Because we are talking client side and cosmetic effects only we aren't asking for the ability to level buildings or have objects that currently act as cover ceasing to do as after a certain amount of damage. Those are things that need to interact with all players as that does change the layout of the map itself and how the map is played on. Going back and using the client to handle the effects I've talked about would be a good step in improving map design.

The second problem we have with maps is the Movement Profiles for mechs though. This one is hard and simple, hard because the older maps weren't designed with these movement profiles in mind and this causes small bumps that hangs mechs in place as the movement profile system freaks out over us trying to move over a 90 degree incline that is two inches tall.

This one is a simple fix because instead of measuring an incline by degrees you measure it by "X is the Stride Length for this Movement Profile. A mech can only ascend Y Distance over a single Stride Length." This change in logic will have the movement profile ignore small bumps, rocks and rises that should be easily stepped over and gives a more accurate control and measure of movement than the current Movement Profile System.

Anyways, before I ramble on more and get sidetracked more, I'm going to end it here. Feedback is welcome.

[Tyman4]

Not a netcode or computer person at all, but seems like a damper effect on which surfaces quality as effecting movement could be applied. Just find a way to put in "objects shorter than 2m do not effect movement" unless "y vertical change in x horizontal change". Then just adjust x to be like 10 m. So unless the terrain continues to be vertical beyond a certain point or over so many meter the small object will not effect movement. If the change in terrain is large enough allow a speed decrease. I guess?

Also, why do jumpjets which push you forward during take-off from standing still, cause deceleration when used while moving forward? IE, why do my forward vectored thrusters slow me down when I'm actually running forward? Makes 0 sense.

Tyman

[Fiona Marshe]

Note 1: River City is the oldest map in the game. It is literally the alpha-test map to make sure the game worked.

Note 2: PGI have already said that after CW is working, the oldest maps are going to be rebuilt completely using all the skills gained.

Note 3: Many of your suggestions are down in the "suggestion" forum.

[MCXL]

Fiona Marshe, on 09 December 2014 - 02:56 AM, said:

Note 1: River City is the oldest map in the game. It is literally the alpha-test map to make sure the game worked.

No, that's forest colony.

Fiona Marshe, on 09 December 2014 - 02:56 AM, said:

Note 2: PGI have already said that after CW is working, the oldest maps are going to be rebuilt completely using all the skills gained.

Better not say anything then!

Fiona Marshe, on 09 December 2014 - 02:56 AM, said:

Note 3: Many of your suggestions are down in the "suggestion" forum.

Great!

[Kmieciu]

I support the client-side asset destruction. The only downside is when someone is using those objects for concealment not knowing that they might already be destroyed by someone. Than again mowing down every tree in sight with your ERLL might not be the ideal solution for a sniper who wants to keep a low profile.

[Dagadegatto]

Kmieciu, on 09 December 2014 - 03:35 AM, said:

I support the client-side asset destruction. The only downside is when someone is using those objects for concealment not knowing that they might already be destroyed by someone. Than again mowing down every tree in sight with your ERLL might not be the ideal solution for a sniper who wants to keep a low profile.

Agreed. Cosmetic destruction would be sweet and it could be left at that. No need to modify gameplay.

[Jetfire]

Tyman4, on 09 December 2014 - 02:53 AM, said:

Also, why do jumpjets which push you forward during take-off from standing still, cause deceleration when used while moving forward? IE, why do my forward vectored thrusters slow me down when I'm actually running forward? Makes 0 sense.

Tyman

Actually this does make sense. Your legs were outputting significantly more force than your thrusters in the forward vector. Your mech is therefore slowing down due to wind resistance towards the speed your thrusters can support on their own. You would be right IF your JJ's provided the thrust necessary to reach your top speed instead of just a few KPH.

[Dawnstealer]

For that matter, why can my Commando move at 171kph through deep water?

As for destructible terrain:

https://www.google.c...terrain&tbm=vid

Cryengine does it. The only other problem is the added geometry such terrain adds.

[ImperialCrusader]

Dawnstealer, on 09 December 2014 - 06:12 AM, said:

For that matter, why can my Commando move at 171kph through deep water?

As for destructible terrain:

https://www.google.c...terrain&tbm=vid

Cryengine does it. The only other problem is the added geometry such terrain adds.

Adding destructible terrain, may cause problems on low end systems making it unplayable, maybe they are trying to keep things simple so a wider group of people is able to play

[Kiiyor]

ImperialCrusader, on 14 December 2014 - 09:40 PM, said:

Adding destructible terrain, may cause problems on low end systems making it unplayable, maybe they are trying to keep things simple so a wider group of people is able to play

I daresay it will be more to do with extra calls to the server.

The devs have already stated that 12v12 is already pushing the extreme limits of what the servers can handle - lots of mechs firing lots of guns with different types of projectiles and damage effects, as well has having to track the exact location of several different components of mechs that have two separate states - if we add too much more, the servers will likely melt into a puddle.

[Captain Stiffy]

SuckyJack, on 08 December 2014 - 06:21 PM, said:

As some of you might have recently read in the patch notes for the early patch tomorrow, the River City statues are getting removed to prevent players from getting stuck.

TLDR the rest is irrelevant because the statues WERE HORRIBLE MAP DESIGN FOR THIS GAME!

[ImperialCrusader]

Kiiyor, on 14 December 2014 - 10:18 PM, said:

I daresay it will be more to do with extra calls to the server.

The devs have already stated that 12v12 is already pushing the extreme limits of what the servers can handle - lots of mechs firing lots of guns with different types of projectiles and damage effects, as well has having to track the exact location of several different components of mechs that have two separate states - if we add too much more, the servers will likely melt into a puddle.

Yep that might be true too, as the bug with too many machineguns firing, causes lag on the server, not sure if it still happens today

[parman01]

Now

Dawnstealer, on 09 December 2014 - 06:12 AM, said:

For that matter, why can my Commando move at 171kph through deep water?

When we talk about stupid unrealistic things in the game....

Why is there this wierd equation applied bigger engine = more speed = tighter turning radius.
Simple physics dictates that it should be exact opposite. More speed = harder to turn.

[Xyroc]

Captain Stiffy, on 14 December 2014 - 10:58 PM, said:

TLDR the rest is irrelevant because the statues WERE HORRIBLE MAP DESIGN FOR THIS GAME!

They were great & added something to the rather baron environments we have. Though they should have never been a solid object.

[Rizzelbizzeg]

The felled trees at the caustic invasion map are the new statues. Those things might as well be a pirate in my pants because they're driving me nuts.

[Kraven Kor]

PGI: I'll have what he's having, please.

[AntiCitizenJuan]

they should remove the entire Citadel

[Apnu]

People will flee this game once someone with 700+ ping shoots a wall in the first 5 seconds of a match because they are messing about with triggers and that damage and affect has to propagate to 23 other players and we all have to stop, stutter, and warp because of it. That same guy will also blaze away at walls and trees and what not because it will be fun to him and probably half the other players will do the same, because... as Buffy said: "Fire, pretty." And all that destructed terrain would have to propigate accross 23 players with who knows what Internet connection, and all that would have to compete with hit reg when the actual combat starts.

Believe me, there's a reason why we don't have destructible terrain right now.

In addition to that, RC is one of the older maps. PGI's map making process has already had a few changes over the time between then and now -- for good or ill.

Also, Paul is on record over at NGNG saying that after CW launches, they are going back to look at the maps we have, and will be cranking out new maps faster. He said this in NGNG on Nov. 12.

[AJ Frost]

Apnu, at this point I need to point out that the frostbite engine can handle destructible terrain with up to 64 players on a PC. So in general it is possible. Whether Mechwarrior ever comes to this, I dunno. Not in the short term anyway.

[SgtMagor]

single player campaign should handle destructible terrain no problem. anyway MW4 had some destructible objects on maps fuel tanks, vehicles, Hangers on the bases, and drop ships... but the desync, and lag during gameplay now is already bad enough, can imagine all the problems with destructible geometry!