81 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

PappySmurf, on 09 December 2014 - 08:05 AM, said:

First thing you need to understand OP this is not MechWarrior or Battletech.MWO is a lame FPS with mech skins that caters to the high alpha bulds with heat neutrality. Just think of BattleField- Planetside-cod games with mechskins and the big constant fire assault gun wins.

To be competitive and get a lot of kills now you need a 1 shot killer and wait for the target to almost be dead and 1 shot them the lame way PGI has changed the rewards system has made the game much worse for the casual or new player.

So it caters to Gaussboats?

Cause I used to be Almost Heat neutral in my Jager40 until I took the biggest ghost heat nerf to the knee!

[Mcgral18]

zagibu, on 09 December 2014 - 08:35 AM, said:

The problem is that there is currently no downside to high burst damage builds. And it seems hard to introduce one. More severe heat penalties would only partially solve the problem, because some of those builds don't have heat problems.

One feature that could change this to great effect would be the introduction of AI units, e.g. infantry swarms and tanks. High burst damage builds would be helpless against them, because their focused damage with long cooldown would make them overkill single units and not be able to dispatch the required numbers quickly enough.

Unfortunately, I don't think PGI is currently capable to implement such a feature.

Not with lasers.

Fire a single laser, take out 5. Fire another, 15 gone. That cERLL with the 1.5s burn would excel at this.

Then deathstar at the next convenient time for 50 damage.

[Molossian Dog]

@OP

Because they decided to make a "fast" game.

Why did they make a fast game?

Because the average attention span of gamers is half of what it was last year. Every year.

At least that is what marketing departments keep repeating. And who stands up to the marketing department even when it has been proven wrong?

[Joseph Mallan]

Molossian Dog, on 09 December 2014 - 08:59 AM, said:

@OP

Because they decided to make a "fast" game.

Why did they make a fast game?

Because the average attention span of gamers is half of what it was last year. Every year.

At least that is what marketing departments keep repeating. And who stands up to the marketing department even when it has been proven wrong?

Has it been proven Wrong though? I'm 48 years old and see no problem with how long it takes for me to earn the Kroners to buy a Mech in game.

On TT it could take a Company sized Merc Command MONTHS of playing to get the a second company together, much less claim enough to be a Full Battalion. Much Less become an Elite force experience wise.

I know that isn't Bill's Argument, but Some(not all, not even most) players want to much to fast. The question becomes what it the right rate of progression where PGI makes money and we still have fun.

[Roland]

I think when he's talking about a "fast" game, he's not talking about the time it takes to earn stuff, but rather the time it takes to actually have fights play out.

Back in MW4, our fights generally lasted between 30 and 60 minutes in league matches. They were much more drawn out affairs on much larger maps.

As an example, note this example drop taken from Insanity's old MW4 No-Respawn guide.

The overall flow of battle was far, far more complex than anything you generally ever see in MWO.. if for no other reason than you simply do not have TIME to engage in a battle this complex with the given timelimits.

Note the size of the map.. most of the engagement is taking place within the extreme northwest corner... but different drops played out across totally different sections of the map. Most of the sections of the AAR show the zoomed in section of the map, but at the very beginning you can see the overall map and how large it was (I believe it was Timberline).

[Xanquil]

The only reason Alpha strikes are an issue, is because they put all the damage from all the weapons fired into one location. If this couldn't happen you would see a lot of skilled players going to chain firing weapons to put as much damage into the same location.
As a side effect it would also make TTK longer and may remove the need for ghost heat.
The only reason it hasn't changed is FEAR of RNG. Some people seem to think that perfect convergent alphas = skill, and don't want there "skill" nerfed.

Unless something is done about prefect convergent alphas, The alpha strike is going to continue to be the only way to play.

[Joseph Mallan]

Xanquil, on 09 December 2014 - 09:37 AM, said:

The only reason Alpha strikes are an issue, is because they put all the damage from all the weapons fired into one location. If this couldn't happen you would see a lot of skilled players going to chain firing weapons to put as much damage into the same location.
As a side effect it would also make TTK longer and may remove the need for ghost heat.
The only reason it hasn't changed is FEAR of RNG. Some people seem to think that perfect convergent alphas = skill, and don't want there "skill" nerfed.

Unless something is done about prefect convergent alphas, The alpha strike is going to continue to be the only way to play.

Not completely true. My AC20 goes to one spot, My Lasers go exactly where I am pointing so may hit 3-4 locations depending on how steady my hand is while you move, and my missiles pepper you all over.

[stjobe]

Joseph Mallan, on 09 December 2014 - 07:35 AM, said:

And My Sinks would almost instantly drop me back to Heat neutrality Lily. That 30 on the scale was for Heat above and beyond what the sinks vented during heat phase (2-3 seconds of a turn). So after the sinks vent if I have 30 heat I shut down. Not immediately after I shoot.

A FULL TURN is 10 Seconds, Heat phase was only a few of those seconds.

No, that's not how it works.

A TT turn is 10 seconds, that's true.
And in order to play a turn in TT, you have to follow a certain sequence of events, that's true.

But that does not mean that it happens that way "in real life"; the ordered 10-second turn is an abstraction of the events unfolding during those 10 seconds.

You move, fire, move, fire, move, punch, fire, jump - but in TT that's translated as Movement Phase followed by Weapons Fire phase followed by Physical Attack phase followed by Heat phase.

Does that mean you cannot ever fire before moving? Or punch before firing? Or that your heat sinks do nothing for 9.9 seconds out of a 10-second turn?

Of course not.

The TT turn is an abstraction of events taking place over 10 seconds of combat, not a step-by-step description of what's happening.

The Heat phase isn't "2-3 seconds"; cooling is continuous, not discrete. It's only for easier book-keeping it's done at the end of the turn in TT.

[Angel of Annihilation]

DaFurryFury, on 08 December 2014 - 10:40 PM, said:

I'm not the best player around but I play frequently enough to hold my own. This is a question that has been bugging me lately because I'm not entirely sure how it would be fixed.

Why is everything about the alpha strike these days? Isn't an alpha strike supposed to (usually) be a risky maneuver because it could result in instant shutdown? And mechs that ARE meant to alpha all the time usually didn't have the biggest load so they wouldn't be at much risk? It seems like any sustained fire build that I try to use gets smoked immediately. Even the big assault mechs that are supposed to be able to soak us SOME damage drop like flies to alpha build stormcrows and they keep firing like they aren't even at risk of overheating.

Is there no place for sustained fire mechs anymore? It seems like it's all builds that require as little facetime with the enemy as possible. Granted I understand that you don't always want to be looking face to face with the enemy but were in giant robots that are supposed to be able to endure some damage. It just seems like mechs that were once viable are just completely obsolete because they aren't built to fire as many weapons as possible at once but rather focus on a few weapons with lots of ammo and precision to deal damage over time.

It's probably just that I'm never a fan of insta-Gib strategies because in my experience with gaming those are usually the most overpowered builds. Currently the mechs I have the most success with are AC20 builds, Gauss builds, LPL builds, etc etc.... Will I ever be able to pull out my dusty Blackjack with AC/2s or cycled pulse lasers or my hunch4sp or anything similar again?

I run most of my mechs with sustained fire in mind and they do just fine. Alot of it is dependent on playstyle.

[Molossian Dog]

Joseph Mallan, on 09 December 2014 - 09:14 AM, said:

Has it been proven Wrong though? I'm 48 years old and see no problem with how long it takes for me to earn the Kroners to buy a Mech in game....

We are talking several different things here, Joseph.

You speak about the speed of hangar-play specifically.

While I would agree on that I spoke about games in general. And I think the existance and continuous success of "slow" games has disproven the marketing idiots. I haven´t played it, but I hear Minecraft is slow as well as pretty big. Dwarf fortress, the whole Paradox Interactive series (EUIV, CKII), even MMOs in a way, heck, dozens of titles which cater not to the instant gratification impulse have wide success. Despite the doomsaying of the market analysts that has permeated the gaming insdustry with the "BOOM-HEADSHOT" mentality.

To come back to the topic at hand, I see that mentality reflected in MWO when we talk about TTK and high alpha. The game is designed like that. The heat mechanism, the pin point accuracy, the FLD, all that stuff. All born out of that mentality. That is what people actually critizise when they speak derisively of "Mech of Duty".

Actually if you look at the quote from Paul, continuous mid range exchanges (scratch the "heat neutral") actually sound like a lot of fun.

Edited by Molossian Dog, 09 December 2014 - 09:53 AM.

[Xanquil]

Joseph Mallan, on 09 December 2014 - 09:42 AM, said:

Not completely true. My AC20 goes to one spot, My Lasers go exactly where I am pointing so may hit 3-4 locations depending on how steady my hand is while you move, and my missiles pepper you all over.

Minor nit pick, because if more than one of the same type of AC is fired at the same time they will all hit the same location, and all of the lasers fired at the same time do hit the same location, and than may spread based on aim. (skill and equipment) As for missiles adding a bit of RNG to alpha striking them wouldn't change them much to be honest.

[Coolant]

I'm way more interested in DPS than Alpha-strike damage...

[DjPush]

You need to build a mech with Heavy weapons on one side and light weapons on the other. Learn to use the light side as a shield and face those heavy weapons away from an enemy in a torso twist to keep from losing them. Once the derp wad that is alpha striking overheats. Bring the heavy weapons to bear. They will just keep alpha striking and shutting down. Then rip them a new one with your safe heavier AC/PPC/LL. IS UAC5's and AC5's work real well at stripping armor and keeping the enemy twisting or looking for cover. Match them with cool down moduals and medium range weapons and fire for days.

[Joseph Mallan]

Xanquil, on 09 December 2014 - 09:57 AM, said:

Minor nit pick, because if more than one of the same type of AC is fired at the same time they will all hit the same location, and all of the lasers fired at the same time do hit the same location, and than may spread based on aim. (skill and equipment) As for missiles adding a bit of RNG to alpha striking them wouldn't change them much to be honest.

And a fair nitpick Xanquil. I am all for removing PPD when firing more than one FLD weapon. That is the reason for having Advanced targeting computers. Putting more than one weapon Exactly... Here "+"!!!

[Joseph Mallan]

stjobe, on 09 December 2014 - 09:45 AM, said:

No, that's not how it works.

A TT turn is 10 seconds, that's true.
And in order to play a turn in TT, you have to follow a certain sequence of events, that's true.

But that does not mean that it happens that way "in real life"; the ordered 10-second turn is an abstraction of the events unfolding during those 10 seconds.

You move, fire, move, fire, move, punch, fire, jump - but in TT that's translated as Movement Phase followed by Weapons Fire phase followed by Physical Attack phase followed by Heat phase.

Does that mean you cannot ever fire before moving? Or punch before firing? Or that your heat sinks do nothing for 9.9 seconds out of a 10-second turn?

Of course not.

The TT turn is an abstraction of events taking place over 10 seconds of combat, not a step-by-step description of what's happening.

The Heat phase isn't "2-3 seconds"; cooling is continuous, not discrete. It's only for easier book-keeping it's done at the end of the turn in TT.

Ok Valid, However Sinks are much more efficient on TT than they are here. However Both sides go in that abstract 10 seconds which isn't really true in this medium. Both sides are finished with the dancing part in 5 seconds and should have 3-5 seconds to vent the heat tops. SO if I am a laser boat I will run hotter than if I am a Ballistic Mech, and if I mix the weapons right, I should be able to be heat neutral. Like The Thug a Dual PPC dual SRM6 Mech that actually has an Excess of sinks to heat. I made a Thug out of a Pretty Baby... It did not work at all as intended... a cool running zombie beast

[stjobe]

Joseph Mallan, on 09 December 2014 - 11:11 AM, said:

Ok Valid, However Sinks are much more efficient on TT than they are here. However Both sides go in that abstract 10 seconds which isn't really true in this medium. Both sides are finished with the dancing part in 5 seconds and should have 3-5 seconds to vent the heat tops.

No, you're still not getting it.

It's not "my side for 5 seconds, then their side for 5 seconds", or " they have 2.5 seconds to move, then we get 2.5 seconds to move", it's "all of this, from rolling initiative to book-keeping, happens simultaneously in the space of 10 seconds". Your moving 4 hexes takes 10 seconds, the enemy moving 8 hexes take the same 10 seconds, all the weapons fire also take the same 10 seconds, as does everyone's cooling.

The phases and the you-move-I-move mechanics are just there to keep things organized as you and your friends work out what actually happens during those 10 seconds.

That kind of game play is simply not needed in a real-time game, when you move and fire as you see fit (and the other 23 do the same) during whatever time frame you care to impose (1 second, 10 seconds, a minute, a match, doesn't matter. There's no turn-taking).

Joseph Mallan, on 09 December 2014 - 11:11 AM, said:

SO if I am a laser boat I will run hotter than if I am a Ballistic Mech, and if I mix the weapons right, I should be able to be heat neutral. Like The Thug a Dual PPC dual SRM6 Mech that actually has an Excess of sinks to heat. I made a Thug out of a Pretty Baby... It did not work at all as intended... a cool running zombie beast

You cannot be heat neutral in MWO because Paul believes that to be bad. He's wrong, but he's also in charge; a rather unfortunate combination.

[KraftySOT]

Its the same as any wargame that has WEGO, not IGOUGO.

And Btech IS WEGO, not IGOUGO, even tho, you take turns.

Its all simultaneous in resolution. Thats why when I shoot off your AC20 in the firing phase, your AC20 still fires that round. Its why theres options to NOT do simultaneous in Megamek...because some people like IGOUGO.

[Joseph Mallan]

stjobe, on 09 December 2014 - 11:55 AM, said:

You cannot be heat neutral in MWO because Paul believes that to be bad. He's wrong, but he's also in charge; a rather unfortunate combination.

This... I understand, I disagree, but can understand. It is HIS game we are playing after all. I can say my opinion, but if Paul says then That's how it'll work!

Oh and I am looking at it from a total amount of time to do it all, But heat dissipation should start from when I fire and take about 3-5 Seconds to be vented In my opinion. If it doesn't jive with your point of view, I'm ok with that StJobe.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 09 December 2014 - 12:04 PM.

[KraftySOT]

http://www.matrixgam...yer%27s.Edition

Its officially, the same as this. Turn based WEGO.

Flashpoints takes it a step further than Btech with asynchronous WEGO. One side can get in a turn here or there based on initiative, that the other player doesnt get. But its still all resolved as "WEGO"

[KraftySOT]

And ill be another one on the "Paul is wrong" band wagon.

Heat neutral mechs are fine. The issue is all the damage going into a pixel, which isnt just not Btech, but is insanely unrealistic. The convergence of weapons that clearly arent mounted in ways that they can converge, is the biggest problem.

Pauls afraid of someone making a Wub mech that never overheats. Ghost heat was spefically applied to certain groups of similar weapons, to go a step farther, because pin point damage isnt something they want you throwing around constantly either. (yet theres ways around thier silly system)

Seems to me, had they fixed the issue with accuracy, that the heat system doesnt need ghost heat, or something not allowing heat neutrality.

Not to mention, there ARE heat neutral mechs. JagerGauss...Raven20...ERLL Spider...Gausslander...Gausswhale...Huggin...

Playing a grid iron to its quirks now...heat neutral.

Its a stupid fallacy perpetuated by Paul.

AND its a fallacy that they ever stopped it.

12-13 DPS for 20+ seconds is, to me, exactly what he was talking about he wanted to avoid.

Totally exists anyways...and has been made even more prevalent with the recent quirks. At some point you have to wonder if they just pull these things out of their ass on the spot with no thought whatsoever.

Edited by KraftySOT, 09 December 2014 - 12:07 PM.