45 replies to this topic

[YueFei]

operatorZ, on 09 December 2014 - 04:02 PM, said:

Its to bad that a lot of the really experienced competitive pilots defend the Firestarter, when its clearly OP, just to protect their bread and butter. Its clearly an issue if a Firestarter can run around, over and through a whole lance of heavies and assaults routinely and not die, I see this every 5th game or so, I am not lying or making this up to be dramatic.

That's not how I believe the light class is designed to work in this game or in the lore or TT.

It puts the game in a tough spot though, if we nerf the firestater by actually making hits count; we risk losing so many good players that are driving the game forward and I'm sure paying good money. I don't mean to be offensive or start a fight, that's just my take on it.

If you sneak up behind me and core me out in a light...good on you ......but should it be totally reasonable to absorb so much damage from faulty hit boxes? Its probably a game engine thing anyway

No a Light mech is not supposed to run around in the midst of a bunch of Mechwarriors and live.

Thing is, Mechwarriors are elite, according to the Lore.

Most players just happen to be anything but elite.

Mind you, I include myself in the category of pilots who aren't elite. If Mechs were real I'd never qualify to drive one.

[meteorol]

Nononononono guuuuuuuys.

You don't understand what is going on. Non of you does. You are nothing but sheep! The only one who is able to understand what is going on here is pappysmurf!

PappySmurf, on 09 December 2014 - 08:09 AM, said:

I agree OP the MM has always been junk and never works right. Then you place a crappy AI system on the server than only allows a 50% win/loss ratio and its a disaster.The server AI controls your hits and a lot of times it makes you lose matches.

The MM and server AI system is just another of PGI'S Abortions to this once great IP.

It's the server AI guys! it controls our hits! Can't you see what is going on? Open your eyes!

[Rampancy]

Adiuvo, on 09 December 2014 - 04:30 PM, said:

No, that's not why. The Ember is no longer used, but when it was it was for a late game focus, with its better sustained DPS over a JR7-F. The Ember was a worse early game harasser than the F due to the hardpoint locations and 2 less lasers, but it fulfilled a mixed role well enough that it was alright to take. Due to this, you always wanted a mix of both Embers and JR7-Fs, such as 2 and 2 depending on the tonnage limit.

Is this the part where we pretend that 3xEmber wasn't the standard light set used by top teams

Because it definitely was

[Adiuvo]

RampancyTW, on 10 December 2014 - 12:20 AM, said:

Is this the part where we pretend that 3xEmber wasn't the standard light set used by top teams

Because it definitely was

No, it wasn't. Please note the team I'm part of.

operatorZ, on 09 December 2014 - 10:45 PM, said:

Cool, that's all I wanted was a little verification that there is a problem with hit reg. But it just so happens that the mech that exploits/ abuses this "game problem" the most is the Firestarter.....so what are we do do? I mean if a red crosshair doesn't mean I'm hitting you is that "my problem" or is it a legitimate issue to be addressed in game?

You seem like a smart guy and I really don't mean to offend you, I just want to cut through the chaff here and get to the issue.

Well... the thing is that any high tier player I've talked to doesn't agree that the Firestarter is especially affected. It may seem that way because there's so many on the field and it actually has good hitboxes unlike any other light besides a Spider, but it doesn't magically take less damage for the sake of.

[N0MAD]

Adiuvo, on 10 December 2014 - 12:22 AM, said:

No, it wasn't. Please note the team I'm part of.


Well... the thing is that any high tier player I've talked to doesn't agree that the Firestarter is especially affected. It may seem that way because there's so many on the field and it actually has good hitboxes unlike any other light besides a Spider, but it doesn't magically take less damage for the sake of.

Sorry brother no disrepect but high tier players? been playing pvp games for 20 years, high tier player usually means a bunch of guys running in an organised group usually vs less organised groups, yes there are very good groups around fewer High skill pilots and in reality probably most of these high skilled players dont even play in high tier teams.
You can say what you like and by your sig concerning the Learning Lights and from seeing you ingames you rather fancy your lights therefore your imput into the state of Lights could be interpreted as bias.
Hundreds of pilots many very skilled will tell you, gezz even show you in videos that there is hit detection problems or just flat out buggy hit boxes with some lights and especially the firestarter.
To come here and say nope we elites dont have problems its you that suck at shooting just takes away your credibility.
These mechs have problems, denying it is either a protective measure or well just ignorance.

[Abivard]

That a FS can run through a pack of enemy mechs and survive is only possible when those mechs panic and have bad aim.

It is such utter nonsense when some players claim a pilots maneuvering skill in a mech running at 145+kph has no impact on their aiming, what a laugh. Most players simply can not hit what they want to hit but blame it on anything but themselves.

I have seen way too many players waving laser beams across 100 meters of Arc at a target less than 300m away! Then hear them complain about lack of hit reg.

There is indeed hit reg issues in this game, but they affect all the mechs not just certain unique ones. It is also a rather intermittent bug, some matches all is fine and the very next match half your shots may simply fail to hit no matter what type of mech you are aiming at.

I find that huge differences in ping cause more hit reg problems then certain chassis ever do.

[MuzMuzMuz]

I think there are 4 things at play here.

1. The firestarter has very favourable hitboxes. You can prety much cut the top of the mech into 5 even vertical stripes. This allows it to spread damage a lot better than other lights - only the spider is comparible.

2. There are genreal hit registration issues - not just with firestarters but with all mechs and all sorts of weapons. Many players are reporting damage not landing on enemy mechs and if you've experienced it yourslef it's incredibly frustrating.

3. HSR dosn't work as well on fast moving lights. PGI is already pushing what they can do with this engine - making hit registration worse on firestarters.

4. There are additional exploitable hit registration issues for bunny hopping jump capable mechs - from spiders and firestarters through blackjacks, timberwolves and victors.

PGI need to fix problems 2 through 4. If those problems were solved the firstarter wouldn't be "busted" as it is now - just a tanky light with favourable hit boxes. If they slap a bandaid on it and just give it oversized hit boxes then any subsequnt fixes to hit reg and HSR might bust it the other way.

[Adiuvo]

N0MAD, on 10 December 2014 - 12:39 AM, said:

Sorry brother no disrepect but high tier players? been playing pvp games for 20 years, high tier player usually means a bunch of guys running in an organised group usually vs less organised groups, yes there are very good groups around fewer High skill pilots and in reality probably most of these high skilled players dont even play in high tier teams.
You can say what you like and by your sig concerning the Learning Lights and from seeing you ingames you rather fancy your lights therefore your imput into the state of Lights could be interpreted as bias.
Hundreds of pilots many very skilled will tell you, gezz even show you in videos that there is hit detection problems or just flat out buggy hit boxes with some lights and especially the firestarter.
To come here and say nope we elites dont have problems its you that suck at shooting just takes away your credibility.
These mechs have problems, denying it is either a protective measure or well just ignorance.

You say that I'm losing credibility, yet your whole argument here is essentially just an attempt to discredit me. Nice one.

And yes, I am coming here and saying exactly that. Most people in this game suck at shooting. Most people in this game can't keep a laser hold on target. That's fine, if you admit your shortcomings. Unfortunately, people don't like doing that.

I don't have any problem killing Firestarters when I hit my burns. Occasionally, it seems like that for the life of me I just can't hit a target and he lives a lot longer than he should. It happens. Everyone goes on tilt at some point. The thing is, when I can't seem to hit the CT on that Cent or the RT on the Spider, I don't start blaming hit reg - I blame my aim. That's the real issue, it's people missing. Maybe they don't realize they're missing, feedback is somewhat limited in MWO due to the nature of the weapons and the paper doll, but nevertheless to continue to argue that the Firestarter has something magical about it that let's it shrug off damage when it's universally agreed on that it doesn't among top tier players is stupid. You can go ahead and say these people are bad or whatever, or that they aren't actually good at the game,

The Firestarter is basically the new Spider. Anything that doesn't have terrible hitboxes, like the Jenner or the Raven, suddenly has hit registration issues the minute it's in vogue. It'll be hilarious when the Commando gets the same thing.

[Lefty Lucy]

N0MAD, on 10 December 2014 - 12:39 AM, said:

Sorry brother no disrepect but high tier players? been playing pvp games for 20 years, high tier player usually means a bunch of guys running in an organised group usually vs less organised groups, yes there are very good groups around fewer High skill pilots and in reality probably most of these high skilled players dont even play in high tier teams.
You can say what you like and by your sig concerning the Learning Lights and from seeing you ingames you rather fancy your lights therefore your imput into the state of Lights could be interpreted as bias.
Hundreds of pilots many very skilled will tell you, gezz even show you in videos that there is hit detection problems or just flat out buggy hit boxes with some lights and especially the firestarter.
To come here and say nope we elites dont have problems its you that suck at shooting just takes away your credibility.
These mechs have problems, denying it is either a protective measure or well just ignorance.

Adiuvo is in the group that farms organized groups.

[Yiazmat]

Aim. For. Legs.

[Corwin Vickers]

This is a L2P issue.

When you have 10K matches these "light mechs are bugged" threads get real old.

[Lefty Lucy]

Corwin Vickers, on 10 December 2014 - 02:08 AM, said:

This is a L2P issue.

When you have 10K matches these "light mechs are bugged" threads get real old.

And yet they continue to nerf light mechs based on the droves of players who have bad aim but refuse to admit that they aren't Marine snipers.

[Ursh]

Not everyone is terrible at shooting, they're just not great with the unnatural shooting of mouse+keyboard or console controller.

At the gun range, or in live-fire exercises, many people are much more elite as shooters than the guys on video game comp teams.

Don't say you have good aim, say you're good at hitting video game targets. Say it out loud, in a mixed crowd of people, and realize just how unimpressive it is, and we can get a less toxic attitude between comp and regular players.

[Corwin Vickers]

Who says video game players don't also shoot real steel?

[Krivvan]

You can't actually just run Firestarters willy-nilly through whole teams unscathed at a higher level.

Exposing yourself to a team when they are ready to shoot you means having to sacrifice an arm just to live. Maps like Forest Colony become deathtraps where your full armour leg gets sniped off from across the map.

Edited by Krivvan, 10 December 2014 - 03:40 AM.

[Evil Ed]

Yes, as already stated: it's lack of skill that is the problem. Every night I play some matches in the solo queue. I see enemy lights running in and out of our main group, and as I keep them locked I see all components of the paperdoll slowly shift, often over several minutes, from yellow to orange to red. Several minutes. I do the same, run in and raking up good numbers while doing stupid things and the only limitation is the heat and how fast my team manages to die.
I drop in group queue and playing with fairly skilled players often in a bigger group we get matches against the top players online at the time, known players from top teir units. BOOM! I ran in a straight line with my Firestarter, I peeked twice at the same corner with my Jenner, I got stupid and slowed down with my Spider to be able to hit back CT of an enemy a second time. If not ista-killed I limp away with one blood red component. Next time an enemy sees me I get hit in the very same component and dies or get legged and dies.
I encurage everyone that sees "bad hit dectection" and "lights running in the middle of the pack without taking damage" to ask a top tier unit if you can do a couple of drops with them. Pilot a light and try to do the same stuff that is possible in solo queue. There is a chance that your opinions regarding hit detection will be modified slightly.

Sidenote: There is absolutely no reason for top tier units to defend or protect their "darlings". On the contrary they want the "OP" mechs to get nerfed so there is a new race to find and learn the new meta. It's in that short period when the new meta isn't established yet that the game is really interesting and there is possible to dominate if you are the one that finds the new CTF-3D, Highlander-733C, Victor-DS, Jenner-F, Shadowhawks, Griffin-3M, Firestarter-A, Timberwolf etc. etc. The quirks has made this even more interesting. A small change, especially on heat generation, can shift the meta to something different.

Edited by Evil Ed, 10 December 2014 - 03:47 AM.

[Darian DelFord]

Corwin Vickers, on 10 December 2014 - 02:08 AM, said:

This is a L2P issue.

When you have 10K matches these "light mechs are bugged" threads get real old.

Tell me about it, My Poor Jenners all they want is a CT buff

[operatorZ]

L2play.....maybe...maybe

Except we have plenty of evidence the other way and even people who pilot these mechs competitively admitting that there is "A HIT REG ISSUE" of some kind. Logic tells us that a fast moving tanky, light will abuse this problem more than a heavy or medium mech can. The "meta" is just abusing broken game mechanics...that's all it is and ever has been in every game I have ever been apart of. Its not skill or tactics or any of that stuff.

This is not rocket science. If the competitive players have learned to adjust their aim to compensate for this known and admitted hit reg issue ...great for them! ...but what about us lowly underhivers? Fair question.

I mean should PGI not fix a known problem because the comp players have learned to adjust? Fair question.

My point is that PGI might be in a tough spot with deciding to "fix" the Firestarter/ Spider chassis to alleviate this problem because of the relationship between the game and its competitive players. Business ethics; I was wondering if anybody has considered this possible conflict of interest. If the competitive players find this simple question insulting...... I guess it hits pretty close to home.....

...the 800 lb. gorilla in the room that I brought up in my original post that is a valid point but no one will consider it..
.its just ....."L2PLAY NOOB" ! as if you know my skills or how good at aimin dem circle crosses I is an such....

saying that other people are just not as good as you isn't argument or reason or logic...its hiding your head in the sand.

Isn't this still 'Merica? shouldn't it be fair, shouldn't it all be fair...if possible. If my screen says I'm hitting you and my lasers are observed to be hitting you and the paper doll is flashing doesn't that mean you should take damage? isn't it still 'merica? fair question

If PGI shows up right now and tells me that there is no hit reg issue and L2Play...I will admit defeat...I am sure they do know whats going on.

but just so we are clear...this doesn't break the game for me. If no fix is made I'll still play and I'll still kill and get killed by lights of all shapes and sizes at times. And it will all be fun. carry on.

[ShaneoftheDead]

There is an issue with hit detection and/or damage application with Firestarters (and other lights).

I have seen it happen too many times, as a player and spectator, to not believe it is true. I have around 5k drops and have lost count how many times I have seen this occur. I have noticed that AC20 and AC10 have less issues than smaller ballistics, missile, and energy. It's not aim issues. It's hits, mech parts start to glow, but the damage is not there.

An educated guess based upon my observations and expirences, I would say that there is a general damage reduction being applied across the board to all lights on the server side, on purpose, to make them more playable. Combine that with hit box issues with some mechs, perhaps our Firestarter, AND with hit detection issues while moving and/or jumping. The results are what we are seeing. Lights that seem all but invincible. It also explains the AC20 success, that it can crack the damage reduction when hits are registered. (and I have seen them not register)

The "Top players have no problem" argument does not hold water. They have such good aim and run high pin-point damage builds that they overcome the damage reduction when they do get hits registered. They would never notice this issue from that side of the argument. However, they would notice this when they drive their Firestarters and see them survive and thrive. Which they are doing.

The bottom line is: There is REAL evidence that supports the theory that Firestarters have hit detection and damage application issues.

[Nick Drezary]

It is not the firestarters. It is hitreg in general. It is terrible since CW was introduced. It is just more noticeable with the light mechs