146 replies to this topic

[Davers]

Fishbulb333, on 10 December 2014 - 03:45 PM, said:

I stopped reading here. It costs $10,000 to enter the world series of poker. You're either a lunatic, eccentric millionaire, lying or wildly exaggerating to bolster your argument.

I don't think MWO has $10,000 worth of content to purchase.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

zagibu, on 10 December 2014 - 03:35 PM, said:

The only real problem I see is that they seem to be very understaffed on the programmer side. Does anyone know how many programmers they actually have? Can't be more than 1 or 2. There is no other explanation why easy to fix bugs and missing features stay in the game for years.

Well, there's a process to determining what to tackle for bugs and so on.

Also, if you like a peek at how PGI was a year ago, check out this thread: Back then there was 20 staff, so 18 engineers were splitting their time between live ops and features development. I dunno how the staff is setup now, but at least that gives us players an idea of why it's taking as much time as it is right now.

They're making good progress so far I think given the challenges they have.

[zagibu]

I doubt software engineers are going to deal with live ops, so the "18 engineers" figure is probably very misleading. Also, as far as I understand the post, the other 20 staff were working on "content" exclusively (maps and mechs). I know it's hard to work in Canada, when you have to defend against invading bears every 10 minutes, but really, the development is REALLY SLOW for these staff figures.

Also, if you actually have 18 software engineers, you can certainly spare one or two who fix bugs that have been reported YEARS AGO.

I really don't want to be too negative, because I absolutely love a lot of things in the game, mainly the art and sound design, and the core gameplay is still solid, hell, I even think balance isn't that bad. But I just can't understand why a player's mech that didn't connect still has to be hunted down at the end of the round, as an example of a bug that could be fixed by any competent developer in a day's work. There are many more such small things that the MWO playerbase has just come to live with, but if the minimal effort was spent to fix them, the game would improve a lot in total.

[CtrlAltWheee]

Shlkt, on 10 December 2014 - 09:09 AM, said:

First off, I disagree with balance being a primary issue at this point. With the last few patches I think MWO has improved both 'mech and equipment balance to reasonable levels. There are still outliers (flamers anyone?), but overall it's workable. Poor balance no longer impedes growth (in stark contrast that to the era of PPC/ballistic poptarting).

The F2P business model is neither an advantage or a disadvantage in my mind. Perhaps pricing could be improved; I'm not qualified to comment on that. But the F2P model has successfully financed ongoing development (and by your own admission, you've spent a lot of money on the game!), and that's good enough for me.

There are two huge roadblocks which impede MWO's growth in my opinion. They are related:
1) New player experience
2) Complexity

#2 is not something we can do anything about. Complexity is rooted in the source material. Most of us here like the complexity, and if the game were to be "dumbed down" then veteran pilots would leave in droves.

#1 is the big killer. The game is complex to begin with (building mechs doubly so!) and the MWO client provides nothing to help them. No built-in tutorials. No built-in voice chat, even for groups. No pop-up messages to help during their first rounds of play. Examples of potentially useful pop-up messages:

• WARNING! Your 'mech is overheating, you need to stop firing for a while or you'll shut down
  
• An enemy has been sighted; press R to target
  
• The weapon you're firing is out of range
  
• Your missiles stopped tracking because you lost target lock

We don't provide help for building 'mechs. What is tonnage? What are critical slots? I have empty slots of my mech - is that bad? What are hardpoints? Is my mech too hot? I have a heat efficiency of 1.25, is that good?




In addition to in-game tutorials and pop-up messages, one of the best things we could add to MWO (to help noobs) would be custom build selectors. You want a brawler configuration for your shiny new D-DC? Just use the drop-down button to select the "Brawler" config! All the components will be loaded in the mech lab for you. You might not be able to afford the new parts, mind you

In addition to completely overhauling the mech lab interface, it would also be useful to add pop-up messages for new players:

• Mech will overheat in 10 seconds.
  
• Mech will run out of ammo in 30 seconds.
  
• Mech has no long-range weaponry equipped.

My point is that MWO is a very complex experience but the client provides absolutely nothing to help with the learning curve. We have the bare minimum necesary: tooltips that describe basic stats of weapons and equipment. That's it. When new players get turned off by the game I really can't blame them.



EDIT: Another big roadblock is performance. The game frequently drops below 60 fps even on high end hardware. That's a big turnoff for some. Mid-range machines drop into 20 fps territory, almost unplayable for some.

I love you

[CtrlAltWheee]

F2P is perfectly fine. However, there's lots of variation between LoL, warframe, and MWO.

Don't malign the whole concept based on MWO's implementation.

I love MWO. My hope is that they'll change their model soon because I'm at a point where I don't really need more mechs. I have more than 50. I need other ways to support the game and I think others might be in the same situation.

The game is not p2w it's just poorly monetized.

1. The larger mechs are too expensive to be microtransactions.
2. The camo price points and setup are silly. I pay for the mech pack. The prime variant has locked paint scheme. They ask 750 mc for a permanent camo that I can only use on 2 of the variants. Or I buy a one time use for 75 mc. I'd need to change camos 10 times across those 2 variants to justify the purchase. And if I buy the 75 mc one-time use it's a disincentive to purchase another because I lose what I bought.
3. Hero mechs are in a strange place. The game is not f2p but I agree that hero mechs have to be purposefully not too good and also not so bad that nobody buys them. It's awkward.

Better setup:

1. Change the camo pricing. If I want to buy a camo for one variant X price permanent purchase. Maybe 100 mc per camo and I can buy lots for my favorite mech and COLLECT them. Let me enjoy fully customizing my favorite mech.
2. I'm ok if they do away with custom hardpoint hero mechs.
3. There might be 10 normal mechs that I love playing. Let me use MC to upgrade my favorite mechs to hero bonus 30% c-bills. Over time I might end up hero-ifying a dozen mechs and it further allows me to customize and enjoy the mechs I love to play as.
4. Sell custom geometry as a microtransaction. Please! I buy all the packs. I'm am doubly happy for other people to have it too. The design is already completed. Let it work for you over time.
5. Sell custom hangars. I'll buy 5 hangars to suit my mood like changing desktops. Or change hangars when I change factions clan to Marik. Don't charge up the ass for it. Just something cool that gives us the opportunity to support PGI and take pleasure in the richness of BT universe.

Lots of other great ideas available from a very passionate and savvy playerbase.

Edited by CtrlAltWheee, 10 December 2014 - 05:20 PM.

[pwnface]

How about make account wide camo unlocks for 1500mc. I'm pretty sure people would be much more willing to dish out the MC for account wide camo unlocks than 750mc for a variant camo unlock. Actually only people who are tricked into thinking it is an account wide unlock would ever purchase a variant camo unlock when it only costs 75mc for a one shot. Nobody is going to repaint/recamo their mech 10 times to validate that cost.

If they allowed account wide camo unlocks for 1500mc each, I'd buy several (probably at least 3) so I can use them at will on whatever mechs I want to. I'd be spending 4500mc on camo rather than buying 1 shots for 75mc each that I would have to think about carefully before each purchase. As it currently stands the majority of my mechs don't have specialized camo because I don't play them enough to warrant the individual MC cost.

Edited by pwnface, 10 December 2014 - 05:29 PM.

[Dauntless Blint]

Frankenstein all mech's,all weapons engines and accessories cross spliceable, higher black market prices for non native equipment,remove all weapon specific perks but allow blanket weapon class perks like ballistic/energy/missile,all upgrades/modules available for all models,standard heat pool for each class light/medium/heavy/assault, omnipod every chassis group for every mech.

effect = no pigeon hole mechs, most classes balanced and no one can complain about massive discrepancies in power creep.
Alternatively lock only a single element like an engine or armour or specific weapon or heat sink for variety but only one per chassis

Adjust ELO with ping.

Use "Warframe" monetary and economy model.New blood real money is spent on ingame currency payable to clients who collect farmable (rear) Items and components through clients time invested which keeps old players interested who would otherwise subsequently leave or spend no more money.(Blackmarket components/equipment)

The WOT (world of tanks) model they are using is the reason I don't play WOT and hadn't spent a dollar in 2 years on either of these games.
I have however bought the Resistance pack,but now I'm done.Not a single cent more.why because no game is worth more than the $100.00 it cost.I almost resent it because that still doesn't get me access to full content but it's Christmas and I'm treating my self,(but thats obviously the point)
I still like the game and balancing tonnage>classes is a step in the right direction with dropship mode nearing.

Politely inform me how this would be bad/good why.

Edited by CorditeJunkie, 10 December 2014 - 06:51 PM.

[RalphVargr]

Fishbulb333, on 10 December 2014 - 03:45 PM, said:

I stopped reading here. It costs $10,000 to enter the world series of poker. You're either a lunatic, eccentric millionaire, lying or wildly exaggerating to bolster your argument.

I won a $1,000 satellite game in 1985, beating 9 other players, to get my entry into the 1985 WSOP. There are other methods now as well. How old were you in 1985?

I agree with you about my being a lunatic. You missed on the rest.

[mike29tw]

Apnu, on 10 December 2014 - 12:24 PM, said:

Now you're just trolling.

Glad to know that you can't put up any counter argument regarding my point. Wanna try again? Here, let me make it easier to you.

mike29tw, on 10 December 2014 - 12:14 PM, said:

OP. Checked.

Locked behind paywall. Checked.

Is there some mysterious criteria that i'm not aware of that's essential to the qualification of P2W? Please enlighten me here. The only difference between P2W era WoT and clan mechs wave I MWO is that Wargaming.net didn't plan to remove the paywall, while PGI planned it all along.

Or are you telling me that meditated murder is not murder?

What's the missing piece that stops MWO from becoming P2W?

Rebas Kradd, on 10 December 2014 - 12:27 PM, said:

Unfortunate timing. That's all you can actually prove.

Poor gameplay balance and bad design decision can lead to P2W. Intentionally or not, it's still P2W nonetheless.

Saying it's "unfortunate timing" means little, since many situations that result in miserable outcome can simly be explained and glossed over by "unfortunate timing" without really delving into the actually reasons and cause of said situation.

Edited by mike29tw, 10 December 2014 - 10:03 PM.

[Vassago Rain]

Rebas Kradd, on 10 December 2014 - 12:27 PM, said:

Unfortunate timing. That's all you can actually prove.

Yes, and I'm sure it was also just 'unfortunate timing' when they decided to remove jumpjet shake at the same time they released the dragonslayer.

Or when they removed the AH so they could sell wangs.

Or when they said they'd have special hero gundams that would only be available for MC, after they first said they'd never have any items that'd only be available for MC.



There's been a lot of coincidences and unfortunate timings over the years.

Edit: as an aside, I do understand. Devs gotta eat. They honestly do. The business model means they have to release X grab deals a month, or they'll suffer, but come on. Be honest about it and your intentions.

Edited by Vassago Rain, 10 December 2014 - 10:23 PM.

[Karl Marlow]

RalphVargr, on 10 December 2014 - 07:21 AM, said:

1) Free To Play (F2P)

2) Competitive Team Play. This is by far the worst problem.

So it's official then

1) Red mechs OP

2) Friends OP

[Bishop Steiner]

RalphVargr, on 10 December 2014 - 07:21 AM, said:

Preface: Do not "Blame Canada" ™.

I think the two biggest problems that MWO has are essentially unfixable, structural issues. These are *not* unique to PGI, or the Battletech I.P., as other games suffer from them too.

In increasing order:

1) Free To Play (F2P)

The model of F2P is fundamentally flawed, as it forces monetization of all content at some point in time (pay to win), and divisions inside the player base (the "entitlement" muck).

Additionally, it drags out the development cycle. No pay-to-play game could hope to survive releasing what is essentially a beta version, and bringing it up to speed as free-to-play playtesters proof the game.

I have spent more money, in this year (my first try at this mode of payment), on F2P, then I would have on entering the World Series Of Poker. The results, in terms of entertainment value, for me, have not been superior to a standard pay-to-play game.

I do not think I'm alone in thinking this.

2) Competitive Team Play. This is by far the worst problem.

Online games are notorious for poor social conduct (and I claim no exemption). But the group model of play brings out the worst in online gaming behavior. Team killing, petty tyrants, group drama, berating and blaming/shaming- team games bring out the worst in people. Not to mention the forums...

Again, I claim no special exemption. Guilty as charged.

When you have a team environment, a vicious Darwinian cycle begins, in which only the most skilled and equipped players can hope to survive and compete.

Community/Clan Warfare only shifts the most competitive players/teams into even more harsh cycles of deadly gameplay, while the main, casual community withers into a stale environment. I've seen this occur in World of Tanks/Warplanes, as an example.

The only alternative is a player-versus-environment solo mode, or a limited amount of player interaction. This can be the sandbox model, or the RPG model.

MWO would need to be completely rebuilt to address both these issues. That is not a realistic expectation. It is futile to expect a small company, with limited resources, to fix an industry-wide set of issues. Lecturing the company, or the game community is equally futile, and toxic.

It may simply be that one either accepts the current state of affairs, or moves on. In my case, it will result in reduced time spent playing MWO, and more time spent on other activities.

I look forward to a prettier galaxy map in CW.

you forgot butthurt whiny forumites with entitlement issues.

But in fairness, that would make it 3 biggest problems.

[Vassago Rain]

Bishop Steiner, on 10 December 2014 - 10:39 PM, said:

you forgot butthurt whiny forumites with entitlement issues.

But in fairness, that would make it 3 biggest problems.

When all else fails, always blame the playerbase.

[Bishop Steiner]

....speak of the devil.......

Vassago Rain, on 10 December 2014 - 10:45 PM, said:

When all else fails, always blame the playerbase.

nope. Just a small percentage.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 10 December 2014 - 10:48 PM.

[Vassago Rain]

Bishop Steiner, on 10 December 2014 - 10:47 PM, said:

....speak of the devil.......


nope. Just a small percentage.

I see. So you're saying that a SMALL MINORITY, who may or may not be on an island, had some dire, supreme effects on PGI, thus leading to crippling changes for the game, the community as a whole, the company making the game, or something similar?

Rather, a small minority of a small minority who visits the forum, reddit, posts on imageboards, and etc.

[Bishop Steiner]

Vassago Rain, on 10 December 2014 - 10:55 PM, said:

I see. So you're saying that a SMALL MINORITY, who may or may not be on an island, had some dire, supreme effects on PGI, thus leading to crippling changes for the game, the community as a whole, the company making the game, or something similar?

Rather, a small minority of a small minority who visits the forum, reddit, posts on imageboards, and etc.

hey you do catch on! Only takes a small amount of toxicity to taint the whole. But go ahead and spread the word on Reddit and the SC forums! I hear I am all the rage there anyhow!

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 10 December 2014 - 10:58 PM.

[Brody319]

Free to play does not lead to pay to win. This game is not pay to win as all mechs are released for free at one point. What would be pay to win is if they released a hero mech that is just blatantly broken,

such as a King Crab with an experimental Light Fusion engine (less tonnage than a STD engine similar properties to a Clan engine when it comes to side torsos) and ECM, then give it much better hard points in every way. Like 2 ballistic in each arm, 1 in each side torso, 4 energy in the left, and 4 missiles in the right, with an 2 AMS hard points in the CT.

This would be broken and would be instantly Pay to win in almost every way. The current system is not pay to win, it encourages pay to fully experience the game, but every F2P game does that and that is just how the model works. You can make your mechs look beautiful and have less of a grind, but really its not that big of a deal in the long run, almost everything you pay for is a visual or minor difference.


Now. Competitive teams do lead to balance favoring them and not the general people. It does lead to exploitive behavior being encouraged because every advantage must be taken, however I think as long as PGI can keep both the general and competitive teams happy they should just leave the competitive area to exploit their weapons.

In most pug games for me, almost every weapon is used, and meta builds can be dangerous but are not very prevalent. Lots of mechs are played even if they are terrible. So what PGI should be doing is, looking at the solo Pugs, picking the mechs that are least played there, and balance those mechs. If the competitive teams decide to exploit that to broken levels, let them, because when it comes down to it, every meta will be the most broken and exploitable builds, and every time you change the best mechs, you are just giving a secondary meta to take the first place for broken. So **** the competitive teams for balance, and Balance the game for the Pugs.

[Vassago Rain]

Bishop Steiner, on 10 December 2014 - 10:57 PM, said:

hey you do catch on! But go ahead and spread the word on Reddit and the SC forums! I hear I am all the rage there anyhow!

Actually, no one talks about you on RSI, and the robot talk itself there largely died during transverse. It seemed to provide closure for many of the post-traumatic mech disorder sufferers, leaving only a handful of very extreme cases. I'm hoping they can be cured in roughly a week, when the mythical community warfare finally arrives.

As for reddit, that's not my domain. I only go to 4chan.

Brody319, on 10 December 2014 - 10:58 PM, said:

Free to play does not lead to pay to win. This game is not pay to win as all mechs are released for free at one point. What would be pay to win is if they released a hero mech that is just blatantly broken,

such as a King Crab with an experimental Light Fusion engine (less tonnage than a STD engine similar properties to a Clan engine when it comes to side torsos) and ECM, then give it much better hard points in every way. Like 2 ballistic in each arm, 1 in each side torso, 4 energy in the left, and 4 missiles in the right, with an 2 AMS hard points in the CT.

This would be broken and would be instantly Pay to win in almost every way. The current system is not pay to win, it encourages pay to fully experience the game, but every F2P game does that and that is just how the model works. You can make your mechs look beautiful and have less of a grind, but really its not that big of a deal in the long run, almost everything you pay for is a visual or minor difference.


Now. Competitive teams do lead to balance favoring them and not the general people. It does lead to exploitive behavior being encouraged because every advantage must be taken, however I think as long as PGI can keep both the general and competitive teams happy they should just leave the competitive area to exploit their weapons.

In most pug games for me, almost every weapon is used, and meta builds can be dangerous but are not very prevalent. Lots of mechs are played even if they are terrible. So what PGI should be doing is, looking at the solo Pugs, picking the mechs that are least played there, and balance those mechs. If the competitive teams decide to exploit that to broken levels, let them, because when it comes down to it, every meta will be the most broken and exploitable builds, and every time you change the best mechs, you are just giving a secondary meta to take the first place for broken. So **** the competitive teams for balance, and Balance the game for the Pugs.

There's not a single heromech that can be bought for c-bills, bro. A lot of stuff in this game is forever behind the MC paywall.

Do you remember the first and last MWO tournament? Here's the finals.



Since then, they've toned down jumpjets, PPCs, and the new hero robots don't get uber advantages, but it still happened. There were like trillions of embers and dragonslayers in the tournament.

[Bishop Steiner]

Vassago Rain, on 10 December 2014 - 11:01 PM, said:

Actually, no one talks about you on RSI, and the robot talk itself there largely died during transverse. It seemed to provide closure for many of the post-traumatic mech disorder sufferers, leaving only a handful of very extreme cases. I'm hoping they can be cured in roughly a week, when the mythical community warfare finally arrives.

As for reddit, that's not my domain. I only go to 4chan.



There's not a single heromech that can be bought for c-bills, bro. A lot of stuff in this game is forever behind the MC paywall.

Do you remember the first and last MWO tournament? Here's the finals.



Since then, they've toned down jumpjets, PPCs, and the new hero robots don't get uber advantages, but it still happened. There were like trillions of embers and dragonslayers in the tournament.

[Brody319]

Vassago Rain, on 10 December 2014 - 11:01 PM, said:

Actually, no one talks about you on RSI, and the robot talk itself there largely died during transverse. It seemed to provide closure for many of the post-traumatic mech disorder sufferers, leaving only a handful of very extreme cases. I'm hoping they can be cured in roughly a week, when the mythical community warfare finally arrives.

As for reddit, that's not my domain. I only go to 4chan.



There's not a single heromech that can be bought for c-bills, bro. A lot of stuff in this game is forever behind the MC paywall.

Do you remember the first and last MWO tournament? Here's the finals.



Since then, they've toned down jumpjets, PPCs, and the new hero robots don't get uber advantages, but it still happened. There were like trillions of embers and dragonslayers in the tournament.

Because they were the best mechs at the time. Ember would finish off mechs better than any other mech, had 4 machine guns, lasers, and broken hit boxes of lights.
Dragon Slayer was a mech that could poptart, use half its body as a shield, and had broken hit boxes.

Currently the best mechs are probably mostly mechs you can buy, like the Firestarter A.
Their quirk system "fixed" the meta, but did pretty much nothing to the PUG world.