146 replies to this topic

[SnagaDance]

RalphVargr, on 10 December 2014 - 07:21 AM, said:

2) Competitive Team Play. This is by far the worst problem.

The moment you pit one group of humans against another you get a competition. Especially in this kind of game THERE IS NO ALTERNATIVE, except for humans against AI, which tends to get old fast. The only way you 'escape' this second point of yours is by NOT playing team games versus human opponents, at all.

[Vassago Rain]

Mister Blastman, on 10 December 2014 - 09:06 AM, said:

Uhh... uhhhhh... uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...



Bahahahaahahahahaahahahahahahahahaha ahahhahahahahaha. That's the MOST ASININE THING I have heard around here in the longest time!

You are complaining about it? You are complaining about people wanting to win? About people who try hard? Really? For real?

HILARIOUS!

Look in a mirror.

The problem with MWO is players that don't try hard enough. The ruin the game experience for everyone else. Nobody likes to lose. But everyone likes to win. The only way to win is...

(And no, not every little Johnny should get a trophy for playing soccer each season. Only the best players/best teams should.)

HOWEVER... With that said... I would enjoy a Free For All PUG queue with no teams. That'd be a riot. Call it Solaris arena or something. Let the carnage and face smashing begin.

MWO is a very weird game, isn't it?

[Shlkt]

First off, I disagree with balance being a primary issue at this point. With the last few patches I think MWO has improved both 'mech and equipment balance to reasonable levels. There are still outliers (flamers anyone?), but overall it's workable. Poor balance no longer impedes growth (in stark contrast that to the era of PPC/ballistic poptarting).

The F2P business model is neither an advantage or a disadvantage in my mind. Perhaps pricing could be improved; I'm not qualified to comment on that. But the F2P model has successfully financed ongoing development (and by your own admission, you've spent a lot of money on the game!), and that's good enough for me.

There are two huge roadblocks which impede MWO's growth in my opinion. They are related:
1) New player experience
2) Complexity

#2 is not something we can do anything about. Complexity is rooted in the source material. Most of us here like the complexity, and if the game were to be "dumbed down" then veteran pilots would leave in droves.

#1 is the big killer. The game is complex to begin with (building mechs doubly so!) and the MWO client provides nothing to help them. No built-in tutorials. No built-in voice chat, even for groups. No pop-up messages to help during their first rounds of play. Examples of potentially useful pop-up messages:

• WARNING! Your 'mech is overheating, you need to stop firing for a while or you'll shut down
  
• An enemy has been sighted; press R to target
  
• The weapon you're firing is out of range
  
• Your missiles stopped tracking because you lost target lock

We don't provide help for building 'mechs. What is tonnage? What are critical slots? I have empty slots of my mech - is that bad? What are hardpoints? Is my mech too hot? I have a heat efficiency of 1.25, is that good?



In addition to in-game tutorials and pop-up messages, one of the best things we could add to MWO (to help noobs) would be custom build selectors. You want a brawler configuration for your shiny new D-DC? Just use the drop-down button to select the "Brawler" config! All the components will be loaded in the mech lab for you. You might not be able to afford the new parts, mind you

In addition to completely overhauling the mech lab interface, it would also be useful to add pop-up messages for new players:

• Mech will overheat in 10 seconds.
  
• Mech will run out of ammo in 30 seconds.
  
• Mech has no long-range weaponry equipped.

My point is that MWO is a very complex experience but the client provides absolutely nothing to help with the learning curve. We have the bare minimum necesary: tooltips that describe basic stats of weapons and equipment. That's it. When new players get turned off by the game I really can't blame them.


EDIT: Another big roadblock is performance. The game frequently drops below 60 fps even on high end hardware. That's a big turnoff for some. Mid-range machines drop into 20 fps territory, almost unplayable for some.

Edited by Shlkt, 10 December 2014 - 09:15 AM.

[Vassago Rain]

Shlkt, on 10 December 2014 - 09:09 AM, said:

First off, I disagree with balance being a primary issue at this point. With the last few patches I think MWO has improved both 'mech and equipment balance to reasonable levels. There are still outliers (flamers anyone?), but overall it's workable. Poor balance no longer impedes growth (in stark contrast that to the era of PPC/ballistic poptarting).

The F2P business model is neither an advantage or a disadvantage in my mind. Perhaps pricing could be improved; I'm not qualified to comment on that. But the F2P model has successfully financed ongoing development (and by your own admission, you've spent a lot of money on the game!), and that's good enough for me.

There are two huge roadblocks which impede MWO's growth in my opinion. They are related:
1) New player experience
2) Complexity

#2 is not something we can do anything about. Complexity is rooted in the source material. Most of us here like the complexity, and if the game were to be "dumbed down" then veteran pilots would leave in droves.

#1 is the big killer. The game is complex to begin with (building mechs doubly so!) and the MWO client provides nothing to help them. No built-in tutorials. No built-in voice chat, even for groups. No pop-up messages to help during their first rounds of play. Examples of potentially useful pop-up messages:

• WARNING! Your 'mech is overheating, you need to stop firing for a while or you'll shut down
  
• An enemy has been sighted; press R to target
  
• The weapon you're firing is out of range
  
• Your missiles stopped tracking because you lost target lock

We don't provide help for building 'mechs. What is tonnage? What are critical slots? I have empty slots of my mech - is that bad? What are hardpoints? Is my mech too hot? I have a heat efficiency of 1.25, is that good?


In addition to in-game tutorials and pop-up messages, one of the best things we could add to MWO (to help noobs) would be custom build selectors. You want a brawler configuration for your shiny new D-DC? Just use the drop-down button to select the "Brawler" config! All the components will be loaded in the mech lab for you. You might not be able to afford the new parts, mind you

In addition to completely overhauling the mech lab interface, it would also be useful to add pop-up messages for new players:

• Mech will overheat in 10 seconds.
  
• Mech will run out of ammo in 30 seconds.
  
• Mech has no long-range weaponry equipped.

My point is that MWO is a very complex experience but the client provides absolutely nothing to help with the learning curve. We have the bare minimum necesary: tooltips that describe basic stats of weapons and equipment. That's it. When new players get turned off by the game I really can't blame them.

Those two big problems you've got there are because it's F2P. They can't stop and focus on them, because every month, they need to fill a quota of items to sell. AKA, the monthly grab deal.

[SaltBeef]

You could see this game on PlayStation 4 if they worked out the bugs
advertised heavily.
Added a single player Campaign.

Edited by SaltBeef, 10 December 2014 - 09:15 AM.

[Mister Blastman]

Shlkt, on 10 December 2014 - 09:09 AM, said:

#1 is the big killer. The game is complex to begin with (building mechs doubly so!) and the MWO client provides nothing to help them. No built-in tutorials. No built-in voice chat, even for groups. No pop-up messages to help during their first rounds of play. Examples of potentially useful pop-up messages:

• WARNING! Your 'mech is overheating, you need to stop firing for a while or you'll shut down
  
• An enemy has been sighted; press R to target
  
• The weapon you're firing is out of range
  
• Your missiles stopped tracking because you lost target lock

Do you want to know what the real problem with computer gaming is? We let all the idiots into the club and allowed them to play with the big boys by dumbing sh$t down so much through interactive tutorials/prompts/messages anywhere and everywhere that through the course of repeated gaming sessions their brains shrunk so much that even asking them think in the future is both insensitive and politically incorrect--for shame we do that!

That's the problem!

Games became too dumb, easy and generalized and now we have what we do.

Back when I was a kid you had to read a one hundred to two hundred page manual for a computer game to get the most out of it. And there was nothing wrong with it.

Back when I first started playing Mechwarrior on the internet we had to pass a basic IQ test by figuring out a Klos PPP dialer in MS-DOS using a 28.8/56kbps modem hooked up to a phone line--without any instructions. And even then we had a couple dull ones but for the most part, it was a better, more interesting place.

[bluepiglet]

Lily from animove, on 10 December 2014 - 08:59 AM, said:

f2p in MWO is quite good, no p2w cap and such.

LOL, short memory ain't you? These were like 4, 5 months between the deliver of Clan Invasion mechs and the first Clan weapon "adjustment" during which every IS players had to play like target dummies for the "paying customers". Till this day, after so many Clan nerfs and IS quirk buffs, the TimberWolf is still the very best mech in this game.

Try telling me "there is no p2w in this game again"?

[Vassago Rain]

SaltBeef, on 10 December 2014 - 09:14 AM, said:

You could see this game on PlayStation 4 if they worked out the bugs
advertised heavily.
Added a single player Campaign.

They can't put it on playstation, because mechwarrior is a microsoft property. That was the reason they had to do a F2P title to begin with, as no publisher back in 2011 wanted to make an 'exclusive.'

[Mister Blastman]

bluepiglet, on 10 December 2014 - 09:24 AM, said:

LOL, short memory ain't you? These were like 4, 5 months between the deliver of Clan Invasion mechs and the first Clan weapon "adjustment" during which every IS players had to play like target dummies for the "paying customers". Till this day, after so many Clan nerfs and IS quirk buffs, the TimberWolf is still the very best mech in this game.

Try telling me "there is no p2w in this game again"?

You can do good in many 'mech. Not all at all times--there truly are some bad ones... and some bad loadouts. But you, the player, you get to pick what you run on them, right?

Those Timbers? They die just the same to IS lasers as they do Clan ones.

[SaltBeef]

Too Bad it would do well on a console. But then again I have friends that have already beaten the new CoD advanced warfare and Destiny games Dominated P vs P and are not playing them waiting for the next thing.

[RalphVargr]

Vassago Rain, on 10 December 2014 - 09:02 AM, said:

Which isn't necessarily because the devs are greedy or awful, but because the model itself requires that you do it.

Bingo.

[Vassago Rain]

SaltBeef, on 10 December 2014 - 09:30 AM, said:

Too Bad it would do well on a console. But then again I have friends that have already beaten the new CoD advanced warfare and Destiny games Dominated P vs P and are not playing them waiting for the next thing.

Casual, short, cinematic experiences, or the full brunt of F2P games. That's what we had up until 2013.

There are alternatives out there. You just gotta look. More so in 2014 and 2015 than ever before, however. I've largely set aside my own MWO playtime in favor of fighting games.

[RalphVargr]

Tastian, on 10 December 2014 - 08:25 AM, said:

Looks like its working as intended.

Indeed. I got played for a sucker.

Except for what I've already bought, I'm taking a siesta.

[Vassago Rain]

RalphVargr, on 10 December 2014 - 09:34 AM, said:

Indeed. I got played for a sucker.

Except for what I've already bought, I'm taking a siesta.

This is another reason F2P doesn't work in 2014. It relies on predatory practices to confound and trick the customers into giving up money. Eventually, gamers get wise to this, and refuse to ever pay.

[Mott]

I expected the OP to be a little simpler... maybe read something like

Quote

Problem #1 - The Developer


Problem #2 - The Playerbase

[RalphVargr]

Mister Blastman, on 10 December 2014 - 09:17 AM, said:

Back when I first started playing Mechwarrior on the internet we had to pass a basic IQ test by figuring out a Klos PPP dialer in MS-DOS using a 28.8/56kbps modem hooked up to a phone line--without any instructions. And even then we had a couple dull ones but for the most part, it was a better, more interesting place.

I had to take the Morse Code test.

[Shlkt]

Quote

Do you want to know what the real problem with computer gaming is? We let all the idiots into the club and allowed them to play with the big boys...

Quote

Back when I was a kid you had to read a one hundred to two hundred page manual for a computer game to get the most out of it. And there was nothing wrong with it.

Your point would be a lot stronger if MWO actually had a manual As it is, we must rely on 3rd-party sources (e.g. Smurfy's) for most of our information.

Regardless, a 100 page manual is a demonstrably inferior teaching aid (particularly w/rt retention) compared to an interactive tutorial. Standards have improved and customers expect a higher quality product. Frankly, I'm not sure the term "idiots" is being applied to the correct group of people in your post... those who read hundreds of pages to enjoy a video game clearly have issues (and yes, I would be one of them).

Besides, even when games did have manuals (and I read quite a few), most of them were garbage. Over half the manual would be useless info like which buttons to click when installing the game, or how to load a saved game. Technical support info. Troubleshooting guides. Game mechanics might fill 20% of the content? Maybe 30% if you're lucky?

[Mawai]

Gyrok, on 10 December 2014 - 07:22 AM, said:

The issue is not the competitive teams, they want to win.

The issue is the derps who like to troll the play2win crowd by not helping and then enjoy watching the other guys break their backs trying to carry their inept robots.

EDIT: Actually, neither of these are issues. Truthfully...this is closer:

3/3/3/3 does not work.

The matchmaker has lost elo, and he has not been found in quite some time.

Large premade groups must form by contrived rules that 2-3 smaller groups do not, giving a possibly large tonnage advantage to one side in spite of similar skill on both sides.

ECM.

Clan energy runs too hot, clan ballistics are terribad, and clan LRMs/SRMs are generally inferior to IS weapons

IS customization is OP, and all but energy weapons are outright better than the "superior" clans.

Light mechs. Clans do not really have any, and IS has some ridiculously good ones.

PP FLD + convergence.

LBX has no alternate mode.

CERPPC does splash damage.

Hit registration is borked.

No MASC yet...

Jump jets are mislabeled, as they are actually hover jets.

Aside from that, it is a great game though...

Just some comments ...

1) 3/3/3/3 works fine though tonnage matching might be better ... I don't think it would change much.

2) Matchmaker appears to be generally fine to me. Folks like to blame it because they have no data. I have watched experienced players derp around a corner into four opposing mechs ... not last 20 seconds ... do no damage. Mistakes happen and MWO is VERY unforgiving of mistakes. It only takes 2 or 3 small mistakes on a team to lose the match decisively. The only reason it isn't worse is that both sides often make mistakes.

3) Only if there aren't enough groups in the queue. You could wait longer perhaps to get better matches. The goal of the matchmaker is even sides and if you actually have some numbers or screen shots for these bad (and good) matches instead of recollections of the occasional bad match then everyone would be happy to see them.

4) ECM. I agree. The whole LRM/ECM/BAP/TAG/NARC mechanic is messed up ... mostly due to the introduction of ECM as a hard counter very early on in the design process. In my opinion, someone made a major design error but are they in too deep to fix it now? I don't know.

5) BS. Clans still defeat IS when put up against each other (not sure of the effect of quirks yet) but the last testing still showed clans winning more than the IS. This means that clan weapons are still more powerful and effective than their IS counterparts so the comments hear are mostly just tears.

6) Nope. Again if IS weapons were all superior then the IS would win. Last time PGI compared them they did not. IS does have more PPFLD weapons ... but you know what? In most battles this doesn't make a big difference. It does make a difference if you are running pop tarts or shoot and scoot builds ... but for assaults and most heavies ... the difference is relatively small, perhaps because folks don't torso twist as much as they should?

7) PP FLD - agreed - another design decision that is a source of several problems. Convergence ... would be great if they had it since then much of the PPFLD issues are ameliorated.

8) LBX. Yes it should have scatter and AP rounds ... is this a big issue ... give me a break.

9) CERPPC does splash. So what? It is a balance consideration. You were complaining about PPFLD and you want something that increases it? With all the complaints about the clan weapon implementation you appear to be a BT TT player who is dissatisfied with the fact that in a multiplayer online game the clan mechs don't simply OWN IS mechs ... which if you want a reasonably balanced on-line game can never happen.

10) Hit registration. Yes .. likely some issues here ... whether they are lag/latency related is hard to tell.

11) MASC is hit registration, HSR and lag related. The faster mechs move the farther they move between updates and with 250ms or more latency to each client from the server in some cases ... the faster they go the more likely that they will not be where they appear on your screen. I don't know if it will ever be technically feasible to support MASC in MWO. I don't know what other online games do about fast moving vehicles in a server authoritative hit determination environment.


Anyway, other than the design decisions related to ECM and PPFLD ... there just isn't much except whine in your post.

[Senor Cataclysmo]

CyclonerM, on 10 December 2014 - 08:21 AM, said:

There have been LOT of good and awesome MW videogames before MWO, all with their flaws, but they have had good things neverthless. MW2 was amazingly immersive (especially when you are 7-8 y.o.), MW3 was the best simulator of the series i think, MW4 had a lot of 'Mechs and lot of multiplayer possibilities (and MW4 Mercs also had an intriguing campaign that left the player some choices), MWLL is just awesome, the first true BattleTech game, the MechCommander series is good too..

I don't want to piss on your bonfire, but *nothing* is as immersive as it was when you were 7 or 8... 8 year olds are very easily impressed. I often think the reason we're so critical of the MWO experience is because we're comparing it to games we loved as young children when we were much less critical.

I often go back to games I liked as a kid and catch myself thinking 'wow, this game isnt very well designed or implemented is it? I cant believe I was able to play this day in day out and love it'. Can you imagine if we'd had MWO when we were 8? As an 8 year old, my mind would have been absolutely blown by the way lasers leave glowing heat damage on enemy mechs... we probably wouldn't have noticed most of the things that bother us now.

I was 13 when MW4 Mercs came out and I *loved* it. It was the best game ever. I went back to it this year for a bit & I was like 'yeesh... I dont remember these graphics being so bad.' Its not that the old games were more immersive, its that we were better at suspending our disbelief as kids...

[Violent Nick]

Gyrok, on 10 December 2014 - 07:22 AM, said:

The issue is not the competitive teams, they want to win.

The issue is the derps who like to troll the play2win crowd by not helping and then enjoy watching the other guys break their backs trying to carry their inept robots.

EDIT: Actually, neither of these are issues. Truthfully...this is closer:

3/3/3/3 does not work.

The matchmaker has lost elo, and he has not been found in quite some time.

Large premade groups must form by contrived rules that 2-3 smaller groups do not, giving a possibly large tonnage advantage to one side in spite of similar skill on both sides.

ECM.

Clan energy runs too hot, clan ballistics are terribad, and clan LRMs/SRMs are generally inferior to IS weapons

IS customization is OP, and all but energy weapons are outright better than the "superior" clans.

Light mechs. Clans do not really have any, and IS has some ridiculously good ones.

PP FLD + convergence.

LBX has no alternate mode.

CERPPC does splash damage.

Hit registration is borked.

No MASC yet...

Jump jets are mislabeled, as they are actually hover jets.

Aside from that, it is a great game though...

I swear you trolled me in another thread where I said half the things you just said about derps... hmmm.... lol.