146 replies to this topic

[Bront]

1) Free to play model doesn't force pay to win. The closes MWO has to pay to win is there are Hero mechs that are slightly better than the regular versions, but only slightly, and with Quirks, that advantage has been nullified a bit (see the Firestarter-A overtaking the Ember in usage in one former example). Overall, everyone has free access to all the cool stuff and can be competitive without spending any money, it's just hard.

Worried about how much you've spent yourself? Check yourself, rather than complain about the model.

2) Competitive teams spawn competition, which spawns game interest. Often competitive team players are required to spend money on the game. When players spend money on the game, the game remains open and maybe grows, which brings in more players in general. With the F2P model, this means you have a good balance of free players to play with, and paying players to support the game. This is why competition weekends are so popular beyond just the rewards (Yes, many folks hate them, but it brings a lot of people out).

Not happy because you get mixed in and have to play with comp players at times? It's a PvP game, it's going to happen, and you're not going to win every time unless you're the best, and even then it's not likely.

[Stormfury]

I'm not sure it's "Free to Play" that is the issue as much as it's PGI's implementation of Free to Play. The costs are a huge barrier to entry for most. I can't count the number of times a friend has said they wanted a hero mech, or one of the newer mechs, but can't afford it.

I get it. It's hard watching $1000 space ships sell out in seconds over at RSI but that's not the norm.

Add to that, the repeated slapping in the face of every player who isn't premium on the end game screen. It's not fun seeing how much XP and Cbills your leaving on the table. Sure I get that most Pay to Play subscription models cost about the same as MWO's Premium Time. However in nearly, if not ALL, of the Pay to Play games I've ever subscribed to you are not restricted or from getting access to all of the in game items once subscribed. So in effect, this is doubling down on us players. Pay for subs + pay for hero mechs, etc.

As if those two weren't bad enough, Free to Play players have 4 mech bays. FOUR. And there is no way for them to buy more in game without acquiring MC. This in effect forces all players to become non-Free to Play members at some point. This breaks the first rule of Free to Play. In order for any F2P to survive it needs a large thriving community and industry statistics have shown that you're carrying approx 95% of the members in a F2P community. Those that have, don't hesitate to toss $ at a game if they are having fun and see a large community to participate with. It's simple, You're giving the game away to 95% of your community to get the other 5% to spend. Stuff like Mechbays, Hero Mechs, etc should all be purchasable in game at an elevated cost to the $ amount.

[Phashe]

Bah. I love MWO.

(1) F2P pays the bills. Sucks, I agree, but every non-console game is going this way. It is business, and it makes money.

(2) Just funny.

Biggest threats to the game:

(1) CW. I suspect it will divide a player base that is too small to support CW and PUGers. AndAnd game death will follow. Which will make my wife happy, but me sad.

(2) VOIP. Luckily, I never see it happening. So low risk.

(3) complete neglect of new players. No recruitment efforts, no efforts to retain players in their first 6 months, no plans to improve new player experience (or earning).

Crossing fingers!!!

[C E Dwyer]

F2P models make more money than subscription games, its been proven for years now its why all new online games have this feature even if some MMORGS still have a monthly charge that's optional

[Mister Blastman]

Shlkt, on 10 December 2014 - 09:38 AM, said:

Your point would be a lot stronger if MWO actually had a manual As it is, we must rely on 3rd-party sources (e.g. Smurfy's) for most of our information.

Regardless, a 100 page manual is a demonstrably inferior teaching aid (particularly w/rt retention) compared to an interactive tutorial. Standards have improved and customers expect a higher quality product. Frankly, I'm not sure the term "idiots" is being applied to the correct group of people in your post... those who read hundreds of pages to enjoy a video game clearly have issues (and yes, I would be one of them).

Besides, even when games did have manuals (and I read quite a few), most of them were garbage. Over half the manual would be useless info like which buttons to click when installing the game, or how to load a saved game. Technical support info. Troubleshooting guides. Game mechanics might fill 20% of the content? Maybe 30% if you're lucky?

One of the greatest game manuals I've ever read:


http://www.lemonamig...ocs.php?id=1631

The game mechanics were all inferred through the historical recountings. It didn't always come out and shout, "Hey! Do this!" But by reading the stories and illustrations, you could figure it out.

And that's what part of gaming should be--having to figure out how to play the game.

Falcon 4.0 came with a 500 page manual. Since then it has grown in such complexity you need thousands of pages to explain it. But it doesn't stop us from flying it online.

Every Microprose manual, for example, did a fantastic job of giving me what I needed to know to excel at their simulations.

And some of the best games don't come with manuals at all. They expect you to figure them out as you go along. Chess comes to mind first as one of the best ones of all time.

[Fut]

Vassago Rain, on 10 December 2014 - 09:02 AM, said:

MWO is one of the most P2W games ever made.

Sorry to ruin your fantasy, but it is. They routinely lock meta and new stuff behind a paywall. For instance, all the clan stuff was behind a paywall for 6 months. That was tons of fun, now wasn't it?

That's not 'Pay to Win' dude... Sorry.

Also, I've always had a lot of fun playing MWO, regardless of what's currently behind the pay wall or not.
If you're honestly not having fun playing MWO, why don't you move onto another game?

[Lily from animove]

bluepiglet, on 10 December 2014 - 09:24 AM, said:

LOL, short memory ain't you? These were like 4, 5 months between the deliver of Clan Invasion mechs and the first Clan weapon "adjustment" during which every IS players had to play like target dummies for the "paying customers". Till this day, after so many Clan nerfs and IS quirk buffs, the TimberWolf is still the very best mech in this game.

Try telling me "there is no p2w in this game again"?

where was the p2w? my phracts still shredded clans, sure the TBR is OP, but thats not p2w, since the TBR is still Op, thats a TBR issue, not a product issue or marketing strategy. Clanners were never OP that much, most IS people were just too lazy to adopt. How much p2w was KFX, ADR, WHK and Nova?

Shlkt, on 10 December 2014 - 09:38 AM, said:

Your point would be a lot stronger if MWO actually had a manual As it is, we must rely on 3rd-party sources (e.g. Smurfy's) for most of our information.

Regardless, a 100 page manual is a demonstrably inferior teaching aid (particularly w/rt retention) compared to an interactive tutorial. Standards have improved and customers expect a higher quality product. Frankly, I'm not sure the term "idiots" is being applied to the correct group of people in your post... those who read hundreds of pages to enjoy a video game clearly have issues (and yes, I would be one of them).

Besides, even when games did have manuals (and I read quite a few), most of them were garbage. Over half the manual would be useless info like which buttons to click when installing the game, or how to load a saved game. Technical support info. Troubleshooting guides. Game mechanics might fill 20% of the content? Maybe 30% if you're lucky?

I prefer those manuals, intercative tutorials suck, because you have to go through them and if I want to have a small bit of info, I often have to go through a complete section of interactivity. Good old books where I can find the stuff to the point needed quickly were great. I enjjoyed them in most of my gams.

Baldurs gate
realms of arkania
M&M 6+7
heroes of M&M
the settlers.

today most of them is stored in wiki's but requires alt tabbig if you don't have 2 monitors. A bit annoying depending on the situation + loading times sometimes suck.

[RalphVargr]

Blastman:

RE: Falcon 4.0

Speaking from personal experience, it was easier to fly the real aircraft, than it was to learn the game. I transitioned from the F-4D in to the Block 0/5 Viper in 1983, with little difficulty.

Ralph, 429th TFS.

Edited by RalphVargr, 10 December 2014 - 10:08 AM.

[mekabuser]

mwo's two biggest problems is that it looks and feels like A ss to play. Oh , and honestly , sounds terrible too, protip, turn off music.

ANyways, If you knew of no other game, mwo would be fine, hell ive spent many hours enjoying the combat.
the combat is fun, but omg field of view, depth of view, the fact that mwll still kicked this games ass, the layout of most maps, its just poor and at this point , i dont think its gonna change.

i mean really, is it not an utter joke that there is still not collision in game?

[AlmightyAeng]

mekabuser, on 10 December 2014 - 10:08 AM, said:

mwo's two biggest problems is that it looks and feels like A ss to play. Oh , and honestly , sounds terrible too, protip, turn off music.

And you're still here because...ForumWarrior is fun?

[Vassago Rain]

Fut, on 10 December 2014 - 09:59 AM, said:

That's not 'Pay to Win' dude... Sorry.

Also, I've always had a lot of fun playing MWO, regardless of what's currently behind the pay wall or not.
If you're honestly not having fun playing MWO, why don't you move onto another game?

That's totally pay to win, dude. Locking all the best items behind a paywall for 6 months, while refusing to nerf or tamper with said items during that timeframe is so P2W, it'd make nexon proud.

Who says I'm not having fun casually farming XL crabs? This is a thread about a bad business model, not one where you attack people who have valid points with the tired, old 'if you're not having fun, go do something else.'

I have more hours in KOF13 this year than I do mechwarrior.

[Apnu]

A simple solution to the F2P question is to have a subscription plan.

Say $15/mo and you get 3,000 MC plus a month of premium time.

Keep the rest of the F2P model as it is.

Done, problem solved.

The beauty of F2P is players can set the price of the game where they feel its value is. There will be whales who love the game and will shell out big bucks for game content. There will be others who are breathtakingly cheap and will only play free mechs, yet whine about the players keeping the game free for them. And, finally, there will be those in-between the two extremes.

A subscription option would be nice compromise between the whales and the cheapskates.

The only other F2P game I played seriously was Dungeons and Dragons Online. Granted that game is pretty much PvE with some brawling spots, but they had a interesting system. You could play for free with certain limits (excluded classes and races, limited number of toons -- stuff like that). You could buy Turbine Points (The MC of DDO) and then spend it on certain things like more toon slots, classes, races, respec, modules). Or you could pay a monthly vig and get everything under the sun while your sub is active. What you bought with your earned TP was yours to keep, if your sub ran out, you were locked out of the extra cool content from that point forward.

I liked that model, it seemed fair.

What PGI could do, when CW is online, is keep parts of CW free (say maps and a basic set of missions), and have other maps and mission mutators available for teams and players with premium time running. And lets say those special maps and mutators get c-bill bonuses and/or LP bonuses.

That way players with subs or MC could get to the parts of the game where there's good loot, and the free junkies can get a basic experience and be happy with that.

[Killstorm999999]

CyclonerM, on 10 December 2014 - 08:21 AM, said:

Why not? I actually hate when a franchise is adapted to work with a F2P structure..

There is not enough demand. Releasing a stand alone product like in the days of yesteryear (MW1,2,3,4) would not be profitable for a niche title like MWO, or so I have been led to believe. I am not part of the gaming development industry, but there are compelling arguments as to why MWO would not work as a more traditional subscription or one-time buy type of game.

Quote

Actually, the perfect MW game , in my opinion, cannot be a F2P. It should be a very open project like Star Citizen, with community-created content. I bet CIG would be the only software house that could create a truly big, immersive and awesome MechWarrior game. Imagine Star Citizen with a focus on 'Mechs instead of ships, but keeping a space combat and travel component ...

Certainly. I agree. I don't think it will ever happen though.

[bluepiglet]

Lily from animove, on 10 December 2014 - 10:03 AM, said:

where was the p2w? my phracts still shredded clans, sure the TBR is OP, but thats not p2w, since the TBR is still Op, thats a TBR issue, not a product issue or marketing strategy. Clanners were never OP that much, most IS people were just too lazy to adopt. How much p2w was KFX, ADR, WHK and Nova?

Where is P2W? Making a mech behind a paywall massively stand out over anything else. Knowing the above issue yet taking 5 months to start apply the fixes, which was coincidentally just ahead the mech became available for C-Bills. Instead of achieving balance by actually balancing, creating a counterpart of a equally overpowered mech which is temporarily only purchasable with MC. Do you really want me to go on?

Right, TimberWolf and StormCrow ain't OP that much. lol

[Apnu]

On the topic of CW specifically, I think by keeping the solo pug queue will split the player base unnecessary.

What PGI should do is make every player create a character (call it a pilot), let the player have more than one pilot if they wish. They assign mechs they buy/earn to pilots and that's that. Then the pilots must declare for a House or Clan or remain a merc. Then when they drop they're thrown into CW. If a merc or general clan player, show them a contract screen, make them grab one, and they go into that faction's queue of players.

Get rid of the stupid totally random PUG queue all together.

Or, if we must insist on keeping it, make it just Solaris, and make the players pay in some c-bills to go to Solaris. Let them get c-bill rewards for their time. It can be weird and goofy, and even let people spectate. Why not?

There done, no split player base.

[Killstorm999999]

Lily from animove, on 10 December 2014 - 10:03 AM, said:

where was the p2w? my phracts still shredded clans, sure the TBR is OP, but thats not p2w, since the TBR is still Op, thats a TBR issue, not a product issue or marketing strategy. Clanners were never OP that much, most IS people were just too lazy to adopt. How much p2w was KFX, ADR, WHK and Nova?





I prefer those manuals, intercative tutorials suck, because you have to go through them and if I want to have a small bit of info, I often have to go through a complete section of interactivity. Good old books where I can find the stuff to the point needed quickly were great. I enjjoyed them in most of my gams.

Baldurs gate
realms of arkania
M&M 6+7
heroes of M&M
the settlers.

today most of them is stored in wiki's but requires alt tabbig if you don't have 2 monitors. A bit annoying depending on the situation + loading times sometimes suck.

Absolutely. The Baldur's Gate manual was particular excellent. Of course these days it is easy enough to just skip the tutorial (if there is one) and look up the info on the internet. The character of the manual may be lacking, but functionally it is easier and quicker (most of the time, anyway)

[Gyrok]

Mister Blastman, on 10 December 2014 - 09:06 AM, said:

Uhh... uhhhhh... uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...



Bahahahaahahahahaahahahahahahahahaha ahahhahahahahaha. That's the MOST ASININE THING I have heard around here in the longest time!

You are complaining about it? You are complaining about people wanting to win? About people who try hard? Really? For real?

HILARIOUS!

Look in a mirror.

The problem with MWO is players that don't try hard enough. The ruin the game experience for everyone else. Nobody likes to lose. But everyone likes to win. The only way to win is...

(And no, not every little Johnny should get a trophy for playing soccer each season. Only the best players/best teams should.)

HOWEVER... With that said... I would enjoy a Free For All PUG queue with no teams. That'd be a riot. Call it Solaris arena or something. Let the carnage and face smashing begin.

Solaris!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Apnu]

bluepiglet, on 10 December 2014 - 10:18 AM, said:

Where is P2W? Making a mech behind a paywall massively stand out over anything else. Knowing the above issue yet taking 5 months to start apply the fixes, which was coincidentally just ahead the mech became available for C-Bills. Instead of achieving balance by actually balancing, creating a counterpart of a equally overpowered mech which is temporarily only purchasable with MC. Do you really want me to go on?

Right, TimberWolf and StormCrow ain't OP that much. lol

Pay 2 Win is paying money to get an advantage that nobody but other players who also pay can have. Putting mechs behind a couple of month paywall is not Pay 2 Win. Its putting food on the devs table and keeping the servers running with power.

As for the Timby and Crow being OP, yeah they're strong mechs. But then they were on the TT too. Its the Battletech ruleset that makes them monsters not solely PGI.

There have been plenty of mechs that weren't OP and were even under powered when released for MC (Hello pre-quirk Wolverine). So calling P2W on PGI because of the Timby and Crow while ignoring all the mediocre to bad mechs in packs or heroes doesn't fit, IMO. Eventually everybody will get all the mechs (but the heroes) for free, so the Timby isn't P2W.
Also, I see Timbies falling right and left on the battlefield, I have been since they came out. Its not like they're made of gold ammo, or get better host-state rewind, or whatever to make them better. They just sit at a great confluence of weight and tech, that's all.

[AlmightyAeng]

Apnu, on 10 December 2014 - 10:26 AM, said:

Also, I see Timbies falling right and left on the battlefield, I have been since they came out. Its not like they're made of gold ammo,

No, but some of them ARE made of gold...

Don't see those much anymore.

[Logan Hawke]

bluepiglet, on 10 December 2014 - 10:18 AM, said:

Where is P2W? Making a mech behind a paywall massively stand out over anything else. Knowing the above issue yet taking 5 months to start apply the fixes, which was coincidentally just ahead the mech became available for C-Bills. Instead of achieving balance by actually balancing, creating a counterpart of a equally overpowered mech which is temporarily only purchasable with MC. Do you really want me to go on?

Right, TimberWolf and StormCrow ain't OP that much. lol

Be careful not to break your arm.