49 replies to this topic

[Veritae]

Lily, part of what makes CW fun, in my opinion, is the ability to Strategize more than simply follow the deathball. We, as players, need to come up with strategies and build a vocabulary so that we CAN play together with mixed drop teams. If you drop in CW tonight and someone on your team before launch, says Veritae Maneuver Right, now you are instantly on the same page.

Deathball doesn't work anymore against an even skilled team. It's not gonna be 50/50 anymore. Plan, execute, win.

[Veritae]

Thanks for the update Bigbacon. Boreal is definitely harder. In my opinion, as turrets are getting dropped, assaults in Phase 2 should be drawing fire so that P3 rushers can slip behind them and keep rushing.

But that is a Tactical discussion that will change based on ground conditions each match.

[Davegt27]

My first attack I type plan?

No response

Then I type there is cover on the left side

Response: left side it is

We breach the left side gate and one turret in the way gets taken out, I make it to the gun but the turrets next to the gun take me out

On my last re-spawn I try again thinking I will use my SRMs' on the gun
I make it to the gun again but a drop ship shoots me in the back
We lose

Simple plans can are better plans

[Bigbacon]

Veritae, on 12 December 2014 - 09:24 AM, said:

Thanks for the update Bigbacon. Boreal is definitely harder. In my opinion, as turrets are getting dropped, assaults in Phase 2 should be drawing fire so that P3 rushers can slip behind them and keep rushing.

But that is a Tactical discussion that will change based on ground conditions each match.

I don't think the turrets even matter to the attackers if they get the rush right. It was over VERY quickly. pretty sure they ignored the turrets completely and artyied the omega and just blasted it. I never even saw the bar go down, it was quick. If a good sized force can get in unseen or before the defenders can re-position, they can take omega before you even know they took it.

mech deaths were also pretty low, 30 total (we took 20 and they 10)

Edited by Bigbacon, 12 December 2014 - 09:39 AM.

[Veritae]

But, Dave, you lost. So, no, not a good outcome.

[Veritae]

Bigbacon, on 12 December 2014 - 09:35 AM, said:

I don't think the turrets even matter to the attackers if they get the rush right. It was over VERY quickly. pretty sure they ignored the turrets completely and artyied the omega and just blasted it. I never even saw the bar go down, it was quick. If a good sized force can get in unseen or before the defenders can re-position, they can take omega before you even know they took it.

I agree with the idea that turrets don't matter IF the initial push works right. Problem is, that is more about skill and luck than anything else. Again, this is not a discussion about those two things. If you have Skill and Luck on your side, you're gonna win either way. I'm talking about having a bag of general Strategic gameplans that a team can select before you even drop, once you see who you're up against. Then, vary tactics accordingly as the battle unfolds.

As my unit drops with 4, 5 or 6 other Steiners, I wanna hear exchanges like, "whaddya think guys? Attack Pattern Alpha Left or Kessel Run to the Right?"

But we have to create those Strategies first so that we can have a bag of tricks to choose from.

Bonus to the first person to create a new thread called: "CW Strategy: The Kessel Run."

[Bigbacon]

Veritae, on 12 December 2014 - 10:02 AM, said:

ve to create those Strategies first so that we can have a bag of tricks to choose from.

Bonus to the first person to create a new thread called: "CW Strategy: The Kessel Run."

but can it achieved in 12 parsecs?

[Veritae]

Bigbacon, on 12 December 2014 - 10:05 AM, said:

but can it achieved in 12 parsecs?

LESS than 12 Parsecs for us Pros, my friend.

[Harrison Lee]

I've only had the pleasure of defending, but I've seen two general strategies from the offense. The first was LRM boating, which only works about halfway on Boreal. If you can get lights tucked right on the upper sides of the gate for quick spots, it could work better. But the vantage lines from the base plateaus are pretty solid. The other strategy is the trickle, where instead of a Zerg rush, it turns into a small stream of teams who have no idea how to coordinate an attack. Honestly, a light-mixed aggro rush isn't the worst idea. Had a few Firestarters and Commandos breach, and we had to play chase for a few minutes. Once they hit the back barracks on Boreal, it's a real stinker getting to them.

[Veritae]

Have been running this a bit tonight. Even against coordinated teams, once you begin the rush, after the turrets are down, it is terribly hard to stop the Phase 3 rush.

[Abivard]

Veritae, on 12 December 2014 - 07:16 AM, said:

Ego dictates that I try to name this after myself. I'm only giving the basic framework here. Depending on the size of your group on comms, whether you have multiple solos, etc will determine some of the tactical decisions, of course.

Most CW attack strategies will naturally consist of four phases, loosely, 1 for each drop wave. The obvious but crucial point is that you're not trying to kill defenders.

Repeat: YOU ARE NOT TRYING TO KILL DEFENDERS!

You are trying to drop the generator that powers the base defense gauss. Always keep this in mind. An attacking force can go 48-0 and still lose, or go 0-47 and still win. This maneuver encourages the latter.

Phase 1: Open 1-2 gates, kill turrets on attack vector, designate priority enemy targets, (if any).

Depending on the map, you will focus on 1-2 gates. Boreal requires only 1, your tactical choice. Sulfur requires 2, left and right gates. DO NOT OPEN THE CENTRAL GATE ON SULFUR.

Depending on the map, coordinate your team to focus on a specific gate or split to assault the two side gates on sulfuric. For this wave, you want range damage, and minimal assault mechs. Get in position, take out turrets and open the gate(s) as quickly as possible. Scout/con enemy mechs and take note of type of defense chassis and their relative position.

Note: Assault mechs in this phase do not engage. Simply position near gates to push in Phase two.

Once gates are open, and mechs are scouted, begin taking out turrets on your way towards the gun. Charge them and fire at nothing but turrets. Die, respawn and meet at the open gate. Once all 12 are at the open gate(s), begin Phase 2.

Phase 2: Maim/cripple defending mechs, clear a turret-free path to the generator.

This one is pretty simple. Prioritize fire on any turrets and push towards them to get them to activate for easier kills. Target prioritized defenders from Phase 1. DO NOT TARGET CT! The goal is to remove limbs and side torsi. Slow them down, minimize their combat effectiveness and hence their ability to stop Phase 3.

Phase 3: Charge the generator.

By now, they probably know what you're up to. If not, they are all patting themselves on the back for surviving that rush by a bunch of idiots. If so, they should all be ejecting for fresh mechs.

Once your Phase 2 mech is dead, you should be in your fastest highest alpha mech. Jenner Fs or non Ember FS9s will work great. Streak to the generator. Ignore all enemies. Ignore turrets remaining. Kill the generator. You should win in Phase 3. If not, proceed to Phase 4.

Phase 4: Storm the generator with speed and armor.

If you failed in Phase 3, it's probably because the OpFor had too many healthy mechs focusing fire. The generator should be in rough shape. This time, bring a fast/tanky mech to finish it off. Cicadas or Centurions/Shawks would be great here. Finish off the Gauss. Do your victory dance.

Thoughts?

That is straight out the best advice. It is very effective, and really the only way to win when attacking the Guns. This is what I advise doing in my drops almost word for word. I might be biased, but I haven't seen or heard of any other viable ways of attacking the Guns.

[Ano]

Have been on the receiving end of this twice now. First time I was on a PuG side vs a 9 or 10 man plus a couple. To my shame, after the end of the first wave I was thinking to myself "hey, we did quite well there; minimal re-drops on our side, all of their team down one mech". Then I spotted that the base was at about half health already and realised what was happening. We lost in the second phase.

Second time 'round, it was PuG vs PuG, and went to somewhere between 3rd/4th phase before they took the generator down.

We'll have to see how this plays out, and in particular will have to wait for reports from unit-vs-unit battles (as I've not found a unit yet, I'm an exclusively solo player). It's *possible* that if this becomes the de facto strategy for attackers, AND (once most people are aware of it) it's still extremely difficult to defend against, that something along the lines of Widowmaker's suggestion might be required to make it more balanced -- even if it's just "give the base generator enough health that zerg rushing the generator a couple of times" is generally likely to fail.

We'll need waaay, waaaay more matches played before that kind of determination can be made though.

Thanks for making this thread!

Edited by Ano, 13 December 2014 - 04:58 AM.

[Star Witch Esperanza]

let me describe the circumstances in which i have seen op's plan work.

Defending team spread out to cover both gates and create a wide net, right gate went down. Team was already stacked in the doorway for a push and went hard right .

this punched a hole in the rightmost area of the defensive line, however it left the attacking team in a position where they were slowly becoming surrounded as the defensive line began to spill around them trying to contain them. This was our mistake as defenders, not realizing that the attacking team had no intention of stopping.

Attacking team kept their firepower leveled forward and simply plowed through the mechs spilling in front of them until they made it to the turret line, in which they managed to destroy a significant amount before dropships and turrets finished off the entire first wave with minimal losses on our side.

this made us defending rather confident.

since both gates were now open the defending team re-established the defensive line. it initially appeared that the attackers were going to push through the center of the line on their second push but instead veered right down the first path, causing the line to encircle them again.

This time, despite the fact that they took incredible damage and made it to the pad in ribbons, because there was not enough people directly in front of them to slow the charge they were able to make it to the generator (though badly damaged), while most of us were still catching up only a few of us were near the point to stop them, and this time there were not enough turrets to help. what ended up happening is a situation in which multiple defenders were pegging away at attackers as fast as they could but simply could not put out enough dps to destroy the attackers before they blew up the generator, while much of the team sadly could not catch up.


what we probably should have done: Focused less on circling them on the second wave and instead positioned ourselves in front of the zerg or around the point. Or put out a call to leg as many of them as possible so the flanking lances could overtake them . Or possibly had everyone who was lagging behind eject and try to return to base via dropship.

So....may work, may not. I'd like to see some 12 man drop decks set up specifically for this.

Edited by Nephera, 13 December 2014 - 05:57 AM.

[Veritae]

Abivard, on 12 December 2014 - 11:07 PM, said:

That is straight out the best advice. It is very effective, and really the only way to win when attacking the Guns. This is what I advise doing in my drops almost word for word. I might be biased, but I haven't seen or heard of any other viable ways of attacking the Guns.

Glad to hear your experience is tracking mine. I think we're gonna see a lot of tactical variations start to emerge, but the core seems sound right now. Only two paths to winning on invasion. Be so much better than the defending team that you can skirmish crush them despite the ease of defending, or strategically attack the gun generator.

Time will tell.

[Veritae]

Ano, on 13 December 2014 - 04:44 AM, said:

Have been on the receiving end of this twice now. First time I was on a PuG side vs a 9 or 10 man plus a couple. To my shame, after the end of the first wave I was thinking to myself "hey, we did quite well there; minimal re-drops on our side, all of their team down one mech". Then I spotted that the base was at about half health already and realised what was happening. We lost in the second phase.

Second time 'round, it was PuG vs PuG, and went to somewhere between 3rd/4th phase before they took the generator down.

We'll have to see how this plays out, and in particular will have to wait for reports from unit-vs-unit battles (as I've not found a unit yet, I'm an exclusively solo player). It's *possible* that if this becomes the de facto strategy for attackers, AND (once most people are aware of it) it's still extremely difficult to defend against, that something along the lines of Widowmaker's suggestion might be required to make it more balanced -- even if it's just "give the base generator enough health that zerg rushing the generator a couple of times" is generally likely to fail.

We'll need waaay, waaaay more matches played before that kind of determination can be made though.

Thanks for making this thread!

Thanks for this response. Part of the strategy involved in phase 1 is convincing the defenders that they are gonna have an easy win. Thanks for the honesty. It worked perfectly in our limited attack drops last night. I'm waiting to see someone try it against me, lol.

[Veritae]

Nephera, on 13 December 2014 - 05:50 AM, said:

I'd like to see some 12 man drop decks set up specifically for this.

I'm currently working on optimizing drop decks for this, but part of the advantage on the Maneuver is that each phase uses a different mech style that is mostly present in each drop deck. 12 solos should be able to do this nearly as well as a 12 man, provided they have a basic understanding of the Phase progression.

[Joe Decker]

In Fact I guess most Teams already search for a Counter to this. I know we do Bodyblocks Streaks AC20s are being discussed right now...

Maybe a revival of the Highlander ?

Edited by Joe Decker, 13 December 2014 - 02:26 PM.

[Veritae]

Joe Decker, on 13 December 2014 - 02:23 PM, said:

In Fact I guess most Teams already search for a Counter to this. I know we do

That's fun to hear. I have quite a few ideas, but haven't been able to test yet. No one has tried to use the Maneuver against my team yet.

Personally, I think streaks are too slow. Pulse lasers plus lbx10 to the legs, or king crabs in place at generator with uac5s only legging inbound mechs, never moving....

More testing needed.

[Kiiyor]

Joe Decker, on 13 December 2014 - 02:23 PM, said:

In Fact I guess most Teams already search for a Counter to this. I know we do Bodyblocks Streaks AC20s are being discussed right now...

Maybe a revival of the Highlander ?

I racked up 6 kills in about one and a half minutes with this last night:

STREAK CRAB

After a very tense and close fight, the vast majority of our remaining guys had (foolishly) pushed out to camp the last wave from the attacker's dropship. They all dropped in lights. I ejected from my WubJack, and just made the spawn timer to drop as a lonely crab at our base.

7 lights had made it past our guys.

They chose to ignore me and go for the generator, despite the gyrating and claw pinching threat display I made as they approached, and despite my first shot turning a Jenner into a canoe upon realizing they weren't going to be intimidated by my posturing.

After 3 more kills in quick succession, they re-evaluated and decided that leaving an AC40 mech with 4 streaks un-molested was a poor life choice. I managed to take 2 more down as they swarmed around me, while realizing myself that having only 12 rear armour was a poor life choice of my own. They took out my non-streak torso, the rest of our team arrived and took out the last light, and while we were successful, our generator was barely clinging to life.

I've since upped the rear armour, but haven't had a chance to test it since.

For most, taking 100 tonnes as a light deterrent may not be the best strategy, but fortunately for me the WubJack is hands down my favourite mech, and i'm able to round out my deck with three of those.

[InspectorG]

Bigbacon, on 12 December 2014 - 10:05 AM, said:

but can it achieved in 12 parsecs?

Fast enough for you, old man. (Christoper Walken voice)