77 replies to this topic

[Vyviel]

This would encourage crap mech builds. I would only endorse this if its a long slow process or a partial reload.

[Alistair Winter]

Sandpit, on 13 December 2014 - 05:20 PM, said:

It's not semantics though. That's just it. Players not wanting to worry about things like
Don't have to play in it. They can play in pub and private matches.

And people who have objections about pub matches don't have to play pub matches. And people who have any kind of complaint about the game don't have to play the game. Basically "shut up or accept things how they are". That's not a constructive attitude, in my view.

Sandpit, on 13 December 2014 - 05:20 PM, said:

No matter how you cutt it or spin it, ammo "refills" are unlimited ammo because it completely and utterly dissolves the need to even make considerations about how much ammo to bring. Hell just bring 1 ton of ammo for any weapon you want, no biggy, you can always fill it back up.

At this point, we're just repeating ourselves, which is pointless. The amount of time it would take to reload is arbitrary, so PGI could adjust it for good game balance. A CW match lasts 30 minutes. If you can reload instantly, there's no point in bringing more than 1 ton of ammo for any weapon. But if it takes 25 minutes to reload your mech, you would obviously have to make a serious consideration about how much ammo to bring. Somewhere in between, there's a good compromise.

It's a question of proper balance, just like repair & rearm, collision, knockdown and many other issues people seem to categorically reject based on arguments that don't take balancing into account. They're not binary features, that can be switched on or off. They have a number of variables that can be manipulated to make them work.

Sandpit, on 13 December 2014 - 05:20 PM, said:

This is one of the greatest things about CW thus far. All those cookie cutter builds that gave no thought for having to fight outside of a 3-4 minute deathmatch battle now have to diversify. No amount of argument, semantics, etc. changes that. That's exactly what's happening and it's a good thing.

Laser vomit builds were doing just fine before CW. They're still doing just fine. We're seeing less SRM boats and SSRM boats, but we're not really seeing more diversity. For every Timber Wolf equipped with LRMs or SRMs, I see 10 of them just boating lasers.

And since the attackers can win the whole match in one successful push, builds that are made to last for 3-4 minutes are not going away any time soon.

Sandpit, on 13 December 2014 - 05:20 PM, said:

If those players didn't have other options like the pub queue and such? Hey, I could see your argument. But they do. Drop pub queue if you don't want to worry about ammo.

See above. My point should be very clear by now. Saying that I don't want to worry about ammo is just a strawman argument at this point.

[Khobai]

if you allow reloading, then ballistics are flat out superior to energy again

right now theres a good balance in CW

[Kilo 40]

Brought my x5 LRM5 stormcrow to a CW match this morning. We lost, but I never died and still had a third of my ammo left. That's not even counting the other 3 fully loaded mechs I still had.

The more I play the more convinced I am that ammo reloads just aren't needed.

[Sandpit]

verybad, on 13 December 2014 - 05:45 PM, said:

If you have to go back over a minute to the reload structure shut down for a while, and then come back to the front line again over a minute or so, it's far from "infinite"

no it isn't

How does the make it limited? Can you reload repeatedly? Then it's unlimited.
By your definition as long as there was a 60 second cool down on arty then you could take all you wanted because it wouldn't be unlimited. Same principle.

verybad, on 13 December 2014 - 05:45 PM, said:

I tend to use energy weapons as my preference. You're making an assumption because I don't agree with you that I'm doing it to improve my performance in the game (let me let you in on a secret, I'm terrible no matter what.) I just want the game to have more strategic options.

No, I'm not making an assumption dude, I'm basing that off of your statement that it would improve the game. It would improve it in your eyes. There are plenty of posts in this thread alone that say it wouldn't improve it in the eyes of others. I was just pointing out that it was your opinion, not a universal truth.

More strategic options is exactly what you ahve now. Now you have to think about things like builds and ammo expenditures. What you're asking for lessens the strategy involved in putting together a mech and a drop deck because it takes us right back to pub queue mentality.
Those cheese builds that were so popular in pub matches? They aren't going to cut it a lot of times in CW matches so now those players and builds have to be reevaluated and that's where you get strategy. Offering a crutch to ease the "suffering" because players don't want to build better mechs for this one particular environment is not adding strategy, it's doing the exact opposite.

[Jacob Side]

Power up & Ammo refills... bad

Side mote: It's 2 AM. what the heck am I doing still being awake

[MoonUnitBeta]

Can I be an elemental with a repair torch instead? That'd be so freakin fun.

[Sandpit]

It's not a matter of balance. I agree, we're going to keep repeating ourselves on this because we simply won't agree. I believe it would be extremely detrimental to CW matches and hands a crutch to players who just don't want to adapt. We've seen it happen for 2 years now. Every time something changes in this game those that have gotten "comfortable" with certain thigns cry foul because they shouldn't have to adjust to changes.

Again, they have the option to play in other modes that already offer them the opportunity to play how they want. Any representation of that as anything else is simply inaccurate. Not every game mode is going to be for everyone. That's true across any game. You don't cater every single game mode to one single demographic. You cater different modes to different people so EVERYONE feels included. What's being asked for here is that this "hardcore" mode be made "easier" in MANY different ways (this isn't he only CW thread asking for that general idea) because it's "too hard" and "casual" players don't like it.

I'll call BS on that all day long because as I said above, this one optional mode is not designed for casual players and "easier" modes. It's specifically designed to be "hard". If you don't want "hard" then play in the pub queue. It shouldn't be expected for every aspect of this game to continue catering to one specific demographic. Period.

and you're implying ballistic mechs AREN'T doing just fine? Sorry, that's disingenuous as well. You don't wee SRM boats as much? Uhm... that's a good thign in my opinion. You dont' see as many boats period. You see more balanced builds in general. Something the majority of the community has begged for for 2 years now. Now that there's finally a mode, one singular optional mode mind you, that encourages that, you see a select few crying foul.
Kick rocks. Go play in the pub queue.

[Alistair Winter]

Sandpit, on 13 December 2014 - 11:25 PM, said:

What's being asked for here is that this "hardcore" mode be made "easier" in MANY different ways (this isn't he only CW thread asking for that general idea) because it's "too hard" and "casual" players don't like it.
I'll call BS on that all day long because as I said above, this one optional mode is not designed for casual players and "easier" modes. It's specifically designed to be "hard". If you don't want "hard" then play in the pub queue. It shouldn't be expected for every aspect of this game to continue catering to one specific demographic. Period.

Oh no, it's not to make it easier. It's to make it more realistic and immersive. At least, that's why I want it. I don't like the idea of Mechwarriors piloting one of the most advanced and expensive warmachines in the galaxy and then going "Well, I'm out of ammo. Looks like I'm walking home. Time to self destruct and eject, so my mech without ammo doesn't get in the way of reinforcements."

I'm always interested in making this game harder, but at the same time more realistic. That's why I want collisions and knockdowns, that's why I want repair and rearm costs to be high, that's why I want to make it harder to get missile locks in this game, that's why I want overheating to do more internal damage and potentially detonate ammo.

We certainly disagree, but it's not because one of us wants to cater to the casual players. The option to re-arm is simply because I want the challenge of potentially surviving a CW match without losing or ejecting from a single mech. Even if I'm playing with lasers, ballistics and missiles.

[Sandpit]

Alistair Winter, on 14 December 2014 - 12:08 AM, said:

Oh no, it's not to make it easier. It's to make it more realistic and immersive.

Realistic and immersive isn't "oops I ran out of ammo in mid-battle, let me just pop over here and reload in the middle of a firefight to this somehow "realistic" complex repair bay that I called in to reload all this ammo which is quite a cumbersome feat to do with a Battlemech.

[Alistair Winter]

Sandpit, on 14 December 2014 - 01:14 AM, said:

Realistic and immersive isn't "oops I ran out of ammo in mid-battle, let me just pop over here and reload in the middle of a firefight to this somehow "realistic" complex repair bay that I called in to reload all this ammo which is quite a cumbersome feat to do with a Battlemech.

Reloading in mid-battle isn't realistic and immersive. You prefer ejecting. Got it.

[Kilo 40]

Sandpit, on 14 December 2014 - 01:14 AM, said:

Realistic and immersive isn't "oops I ran out of ammo in mid-battle, let me just pop over here and reload in the middle of a firefight to this somehow "realistic" complex repair bay that I called in to reload all this ammo which is quite a cumbersome feat to do with a Battlemech.

If you're going to make that argument, then you may as well complain about ammo loaded in the legs Realisticly and immersively traveling to an AMS in the shoulder or an LRM5 in the head.

[Sandpit]

Alistair Winter, on 14 December 2014 - 01:20 AM, said:

Reloading in mid-battle isn't realistic and immersive. You prefer ejecting. Got it.

Building a mech that isn't combat effective and can't do anything but stand around while the pilot picks his nose but should be allowed to have some sort of magical device that ships ammo, stops in mid-battle on the battlefield, shuts down in the middle of a firefight, and has technicians deliver and reload your mech because the players decided to put together a poor build (defined because if you can't fight, then yea, that's poor build) is realistic?

Because you see tanks on modern fields of battle leave the fight in the middle of a warzone battle so they can reload right? That's pretty realistic.
You don't? Hmmm maybe that's because THEY are smart enough to carry enough ammo for their operations.

[Sandpit]

Kilo 40, on 14 December 2014 - 01:23 AM, said:

If you're going to make that argument, then you may as well complain about ammo loaded in the legs Realisticly and immersively traveling to an AMS in the shoulder or an LRM5 in the head.

what in the hell does that have to do with having some magical reload facility on the map that does what I just described above?

Build better mechs
Plan ammo needs better
Conserve ammo
Don't spam ammo needlessly
Bring backup weapons in a more balanced build
Play in pub queue.

Don't, however, sit there and try to tell me this is about "realism" and immersion. Alistair brought up "realism", not me. So no, don't try to argue that my argument is flawed on the same basis. By your logic then Alistair's point is just as flawed. You don't get to cherry pick certain aspects of a discussion just because it fits your needs. You take the whole conversation.

I'm with you, I don't think it's realistic. So we're agreed then. It wouldn't be realistic or realism shouldn't be the basis for arguing for a reload option.

[Kilo 40]

Sandpit, on 14 December 2014 - 01:48 AM, said:

what in the hell does that have to do with having some magical reload facility on the map that does what I just described above?

Build better mechs
Plan ammo needs better
Conserve ammo
Don't spam ammo needlessly
Bring backup weapons in a more balanced build
Play in pub queue.

Don't, however, sit there and try to tell me this is about "realism" and immersion. Alistair brought up "realism", not me. So no, don't try to argue that my argument is flawed on the same basis. By your logic then Alistair's point is just as flawed. You don't get to cherry pick certain aspects of a discussion just because it fits your needs. You take the whole conversation.

I'm with you, I don't think it's realistic. So we're agreed then. It wouldn't be realistic or realism shouldn't be the basis for arguing for a reload option.

all I'm saying is there is lots of things in the game that can easily be described to make them seem silly, just like you did with his idea. and describing them that way isn't a reason to keep them out of the game.

I agree completely that just tossing in some ammo both would break lrms and ballistics to the point of making the completely OP, but I do think something "like" that could be done. D I have good ideas what what? no, not really. That's why I'm not a game designer. But I do know I'd love to see more immerseive things in the game.

maybe a landed dropship that you had to take your ammo depleted mech to, so you can swap mechs rather than refilling ammo or just ejecting. I don't know.

[Alistair Winter]

Sandpit, on 14 December 2014 - 01:44 AM, said:

Building a mech that isn't combat effective and can't do anything but stand around while the pilot picks his nose but should be allowed to have some sort of magical device that ships ammo, stops in mid-battle on the battlefield, shuts down in the middle of a firefight, and has technicians deliver and reload your mech because the players decided to put together a poor build (defined because if you can't fight, then yea, that's poor build) is realistic?
Because you see tanks on modern fields of battle leave the fight in the middle of a warzone battle so they can reload right? That's pretty realistic.
You don't? Hmmm maybe that's because THEY are smart enough to carry enough ammo for their operations.

ggclose

[Sandpit]

Kilo 40, on 14 December 2014 - 01:58 AM, said:

all I'm saying is there is lots of things in the game that can easily be described to make them seem silly, just like you did with his idea. and describing them that way isn't a reason to keep them out of the game.

Using "realism" as the basis for putting it INTO the game isn't a reason to put it in then.

I posted several reasons that had nothing to do with realism.

Kilo 40, on 14 December 2014 - 01:58 AM, said:

maybe a landed dropship that you had to take your ammo depleted mech to, so you can swap mechs rather than refilling ammo or just ejecting. I don't know.

That's cool too.

I'm not ok with people wanting to change a very fundamental aspect of the game simply because they run out of ammo when ammo is like the one and only major drawback to taking ammo related weapons in the first place. If you want to run all the way back to the spawn poitn to swap out mechs without ejecting? That's cool, I actually like that idea. What I don't like is the idea that people can cheese their builds, spam ammo, and not worry about any consequences to that in prolonged battles. I'm especially not ok with that since they already have a mode that caters to that play style and mindset.

Alistair Winter, on 14 December 2014 - 02:14 AM, said:

ggclose

gpclose

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Re arm bays would be workable.

Repair bays not so much.

[Pahrias]

i like the idea of having a hrothgar at the back of ur base/dropzone that u can take ur depleted mech to, n swap it out for ur new mech. maybe while its in the drop ship it could b rearmed a bit while ur out in another mech. NOT repaired just reloaded. and make that dropship destructable too. itd make it more of a decision, should i run back to swap this mech out or just eject?

just my opinion tho

[Sandpit]

Pahrias, on 14 December 2014 - 02:41 AM, said:

i like the idea of having a hrothgar at the back of ur base/dropzone that u can take ur depleted mech to, n swap it out for ur new mech. maybe while its in the drop ship it could b rearmed a bit while ur out in another mech. NOT repaired just reloaded. and make that dropship destructable too. itd make it more of a decision, should i run back to swap this mech out or just eject?

just my opinion tho

I like everything in that except for rearm.
IS ballistics are the ONLY PPD/FLD weapon in the game. That means they have a very distinct advantage over every other weapon in the game. Taking away the single most important trade=off/drawback to that weapon simply because "I ran out of ammo and didn't bring a more balanced build" is a ridiculous idea in my opinion