45 replies to this topic

[Surn]

If we abandon the whole, clan/is thing... my mech needs a light saber.

[Bows3r]

Do you understand IS 'mechs at all? I'm not trying to be rude here, simply attempting to make a point. Your 'mechs beat the hell out of us in brawls, so use that ability to your advantage. If you have to compensate by changing your tactics from hiding behind cover to close in on us, then so be it.

[Scoops Kerensky]

Sandpit, on 14 December 2014 - 02:41 AM, said:

except it's not an imbalance. If what you said were true, then clans would never lose a defense, or at the VERY least lose extremely rarely. That's not happening. So your assertion that it's the "norm" isn't backed up by the map. That's what I'm saying.

Except neither of us knows that and can only go by anecdotes, PGI are the only ones with that kind of data. My anecdotes are just as valid as yours.

Sandpit, on 14 December 2014 - 02:40 AM, said:

yea ok



show me where I'm "elite"



I drop pub

I drop solo

I drop group

I drop 12man



Ever stop to think that maybe you're in the minority? Just because you drop a certain way most times doesn't mean you represent any majority.



If you want mixed tech. Drop pub queue.

Problem solved

See how easy that was?

Except this community has been dying the death of a thousand cuts for years now and CW is the big new thing they're blasting on the front page and to their friends to try and breathe life so we have more then 50+ people in primetime. You're not really going to attract people by going 'oh yeah, the new feature with dropship modes and base captures and maps and stuff? You don't get to play it unless you do x, y, and z which require a much more significant time investment than dropping into a pug match. This isn't an MMO, its mechwarrior. If people can't drop in and be allowed to enjoy a match unless they go up a vertical difficulty curve of 12 mans and grind out 4 elite mechs while they're new to the game they're going to throw their hands up and leave.

That may be fine and well for you but that kind of mentality is going to just keep killing what's left of the community here. If we loosened some restrictions, even if it isn't friendly to lore, we could get more people playing this game and understanding how fun it can be, just like you and I do.

[Scoops Kerensky]

Bows3r, on 14 December 2014 - 02:49 AM, said:

Do you understand IS 'mechs at all? I'm not trying to be rude here, simply attempting to make a point. Your 'mechs beat the hell out of us in brawls, so use that ability to your advantage. If you have to compensate by changing your tactics from hiding behind cover to close in on us, then so be it.

I hear ya, I know that's the current meta where IS is the close range king and clans are the long range kings effectively. My beef isn't that and I don't dispute or argue that it should change. My complaint is the map design (particularly the current alpine cw) favors long range sniping for defenders, and when you put clans on defenders where they have much more range to snipe against all IS that have much more ground to cover, its going to be an incredible meatgrinder that's statistically very stacked against the IS only side. One side can be more organized than the other, maybe one side will get lucky crits, there's all sorts of variables. But if we assume the teams are roughly equal in organization and competence, then the clans are going to win most of the time, and that is (anecdotally) mine and many others experience.

My intent isn't to try and swing around how smart I am, or ask all of you how great you are at MWO, or how you'e totally seen the opposite in a few matches. I think we've got a potential balance problem that can be solved by violating the lore a little more. There's no need for us to name call on either side.

[Sandpit]

Socop, on 14 December 2014 - 02:50 AM, said:

Except neither of us knows that and can only go by anecdotes, PGI are the only ones with that kind of data. My anecdotes are just as valid as yours..

exactly
which is completely INvalid which is exactly what I was pointing out.

Socop, on 14 December 2014 - 02:50 AM, said:

That may be fine and well for you but that kind of mentality is going to just keep killing what's left of the community here. If we loosened some restrictions, even if it isn't friendly to lore, we could get more people playing this game and understanding how fun it can be, just like you and I do.

yea? Can you show me where the majority of the community agrees with you?

[zagibu]

Bows3r, on 14 December 2014 - 02:49 AM, said:

Do you understand IS 'mechs at all? I'm not trying to be rude here, simply attempting to make a point. Your 'mechs beat the hell out of us in brawls, so use that ability to your advantage. If you have to compensate by changing your tactics from hiding behind cover to close in on us, then so be it.

Yeah, uh, and after we've closed in and have no armor left, you are going to brawl with us, right? It doesn't work on the ice map if the clan team is not a bunch of new players. 6 SCRs or TBRs guarding each gate can cut down anything that tries to push through the chokepoints. What doesn't die instantly is so crippled that the following "brawl", as you call it, is more like a clean-up.

That said, I am firmly against mixed tech and would rather lose every match than see clan mechs in my team.

Edited by zagibu, 14 December 2014 - 02:59 AM.

[Sandpit]

Socop, on 14 December 2014 - 02:50 AM, said:

This isn't an MMO, its mechwarrior.

hate to break it to you but
1.) you're in an extreme minority with your opinion
2.) CW is the MMO portion of MWO

Drop pub queue.
Once again
Problem solved

zagibu, on 14 December 2014 - 02:58 AM, said:

Yeah, uh, and after we've closed in and have no armor left, you are going to brawl with us, right? It doesn't work on the ice map if the clan team is not a bunch of new players. 6 SCRs or TBRs guarding each gate can cut down anything that tries to push through the chokepoints. What doesn't die instantly is so crippled that the following "brawl", as you call it, is more like a clean-up.

If you can't overcome 6 mechs guarding a gate then I hate to break it to ya but it's not the game that's the problem.

You guys don't even understand the fallacy of your arguments.

By your logic in order for me to compete and win the only way I can do that is by using clan mechs.

You might want to think things through before you say them because I don't need clan mechs to beat your clan mechs. I need a decent team. That's all.

[Scoops Kerensky]

Sandpit, on 14 December 2014 - 02:57 AM, said:

exactly
which is completely INvalid which is exactly what I was pointing out.


yea? Can you show me where the majority of the community agrees with you?

Agrees that the attacking side isn't being favored? http://mwomercs.com/...ckers-cant-win/ here's a thread

That the current attacking meta revolves around generator kamikaze waves? http://mwomercs.com/...ds-to-be-fixed/

That it's very frustrating for casuals to have to be fodder for 12 mans and the difficulty curve from that? http://mwomercs.com/...made-v-premade/

I can't pull statistics out because I don't work at PGI, but I think that there's all of these threads very active and on the first page means at the very least that all of those points are striking a nerve with segments, if not majorities of the playerbase.

[Vassago Rain]

The clan range advantage needs to go away, or IS needs mirrored weapons to be on par.

Unless either of them happens (IS getting more range would just lead to even more camping, so plz don't do this) this is how CW will be like.

[Scoops Kerensky]

Sandpit, on 14 December 2014 - 03:00 AM, said:

Drop pub queue.
Once again
Problem solved

I'm quoting this specific part because you keep ignoring my point. CW is the hot new thing trying to breathe life into this game, and telling people its only for an exclusive club is a surefire way to kill any potential of this game having a revival. I know its why I came back and many others have in games I've played made similar statements. Maybe we're in the extreme minority (if you can prove that!) but we represent a group that could grow and actually make it possible to not wait 15+ minutes for CW matches because so few people are playing.

CW isn't just for the hardcores and the elites, and it'll amaze me if PGI decides to keep treating its golden goose it just spent a lot of time working on just for the benefit of the roughly 100 or so people who think that'd be a great idea because they get to show the (what little's left of it) community how cool and great they are at MWO

[Sandpit]

Socop, on 14 December 2014 - 03:01 AM, said:

Agrees that the attacking side isn't being favored? http://mwomercs.com/...ckers-cant-win/ here's a thread

That the current attacking meta revolves around generator kamikaze waves? http://mwomercs.com/...ds-to-be-fixed/

That it's very frustrating for casuals to have to be fodder for 12 mans and the difficulty curve from that? http://mwomercs.com/...made-v-premade/

I can't pull statistics out because I don't work at PGI, but I think that there's all of these threads very active and on the first page means at the very least that all of those points are striking a nerve with segments, if not majorities of the playerbase.

They're striking nerves with the same select few.

Want data?
Record breaking number of players all weekend.

Want more data?
Overwhelming positive feedback across the board

More data you say?
2 units i know of personally having so many returning faces and new players that they're upping their ts server capacity.

Yea, cw is really causing a negative impact on mwo for the majority of the players

Socop, on 14 December 2014 - 03:05 AM, said:

I'm quoting this specific part because you keep ignoring my point. CW is the hot new thing trying to breathe life into this game, and telling people its only for an exclusive club is a surefire way to kill any potential of this game having a revival. I know its why I came back and many others have in games I've played made similar statements. Maybe we're in the extreme minority (if you can prove that!) but we represent a group that could grow and actually make it possible to not wait 15+ minutes for CW matches because so few people are playing.

CW isn't just for the hardcores and the elites, and it'll amaze me if PGI decides to keep treating its golden goose it just spent a lot of time working on just for the benefit of the roughly 100 or so people who think that'd be a great idea because they get to show the (what little's left of it) community how cool and great they are at MWO

See above post

Drop pub queue.
Problem solved

Also
Stop implying wait times are due to low numbers, they aren't. That specifically stated by russ un his explanation on the cw mm system.

Oh and it IS specifically designed for hardcore. Maybe you missed that memo?

Casual is pub queue. Don't want hard drop pub queue.

[Scoops Kerensky]

Well, I provided links and sources for mine, so your 'overwhelming positive data' aint' really a strong argument here and try checking the active people reading the 'linkup for cw matches' and the irc set up just for it. It peaks at 24 people tops in either section.

The number of people playing this game is anemic for what it could be, and how sustained the surge is gonna be is going to be based on whether people enjoy CW or not. They're coming back to see what it is and they'll quit en masse again just like we did the last few times if it doesn't shape up.

the long wait times are absolutely in part due to small numbers and also ui needing to be improved. One problem existing doesn't mean the other isn't in play.

I'm not sure why you're taking this as such a personal offense. And you're still repeating the same 'cw is for hardcores only' without addressing the whole 'that's gonna really limit the appeal of cw to a select few and keep the game's population low' part that's my main point.

[Bows3r]

Proper scouting ensures you know where we are and what we have, should be much easier for you then it is for us. You want to know how to beat Timber Wolf's and Stormcrows? Easy. Zerg us. Did you drop with brawling Orions, or King Crabs and Atlases running 360 engines? No? You should have. How about that AC/40 Jagermech? Or that dual AC/5 Dragon? How about the various flavors of Banshees, all of which have enough power range and heat efficiency to be used as line breakers. The Thunderbolt 9S, Jagermech DD, and Awesome 8Q are phenominal direct fire support 'mechs.

[Scoops Kerensky]

Bows3r, on 14 December 2014 - 04:13 AM, said:

Proper scouting ensures you know where we are and what we have, should be much easier for you then it is for us. You want to know how to beat Timber Wolf's and Stormcrows? Easy. Zerg us. Did you drop with brawling Orions, or King Crabs and Atlases running 360 engines? No? You should have. How about that AC/40 Jagermech? Or that dual AC/5 Dragon? How about the various flavors of Banshees, all of which have enough power range and heat efficiency to be used as line breakers. The Thunderbolt 9S, Jagermech DD, and Awesome 8Q are phenominal direct fire support 'mechs.

Again, as another IS poster pointed out, the alpine CW in particular means there is effectively one avenue of entry with little cover. Any clan team with coordination is going to shred an IS push long before it can get into brawling range with storms and timber wolves, which are easily out-alpha dragons, ilyas, and orions at range.

[Wolfwood592]

I have had both losing and winning matches against the clans.

I do not think this is a solid idea only bc it defeats the whole ClanvsIS style of play. That and I guess I don't seem to be having so many issues against them.

[Bows3r]

Focus fire, push and break the line, coordination and proper scouting are all key to an effective push against Clan 'mechs.

You just pushed Alpha gate and got beat 5-12? Don't make the same move, try and have a light 'mech or a scout determine enemy positions, even on the Boreal Vault there are options.

If they're waiting by the gate then quickly form up in a brawling push and beat them, if they're camping base then the same strat applies, if they're waiting in the middle of the map, then push into them, the key is take the fight to them, not the other way around!

Simply put the only position on the Boreal Vault where the Clans have a significant advantage over the IS is if they sit In the middle of the map sniping/LRM'ing. If they are doing that then a coordinated brawling lance will beat the hell out of them, because if they are there, that means they are playing a long ranged game, and the only way to break it is to push right though it!

[Scoops Kerensky]

Yeah but a smart clan group is going to take advantage of their corridor push to snipe them and will also have scouts at alpha and beta. They're close enough that it's trivial for anything short of assaults to switch coverage if called out in advance, and at those ranges the clans will lead off with significant advantage. Once the brawling starts the clans have the upper hand because there isn't cover on either road to those gates.

My point isn't that its impossible for the IS to win, my point is that the map design is ultimately flawed and needs to be reworked. That'll take time and resources, just like any sort of balancing and number changing would. In the meantime, its a flick of a switch to let people just use whatever mechs they'd like and I think would be an alright band-aid to counter the imbalance issues between clan and is matchups. Let them run those on weekend test events like they did when clans first came out and had that ridiculously high win rate

[Karamarka]

Vassago Rain, on 14 December 2014 - 03:01 AM, said:

The clan range advantage needs to go away, or IS needs mirrored weapons to be on par.

Unless either of them happens (IS getting more range would just lead to even more camping, so plz don't do this) this is how CW will be like.

Only if the IS ac/20 on sulfurous is nerfed

all their weapons do more damage and are more effective at close range

Sulfurous is a close range map

NERF IS NERF IS!

[Butane9000]

Actually any defending team shouldn't move out of their base to engage the attackers until the attackers are on their last wave of mechs. The goal for their team is to defend and with the gates being a choke point it's counter productive for them to leave their base to engage.

[Bows3r]

That's the point of charging them, when they are in long range 'mechs, they cannot brawl, if you don't believe me pick any Clan 'mech there is and try and construct a powerful long ranged build that also has powerful brawling capabilities.

The IS can sure as hell do that, but the Clans? Nope.