165 replies to this topic

[Pezzer]

Grantham Besat, on 16 December 2014 - 09:00 AM, said:

Point of fact I walk in your shoes daily and I have ran into plenty of is piolts daily who can and do hit with those ppcs.

I didn't say that you can't. I'm saying that they will be hitting less than the instant-travel C-ERLL. Who's going to be peeling off more armor, an Awesome and a Vindicator with 5-6 ERPPCs firing 2 at a time every .6 seconds, missing 15%-25% of the time, or 2 Timbers and 3 Stormcrows firing off 3-6 C-ERLLs each hitting with a 0%-2% miss rate?

I rest my case. IS still loses at range unless they field so much Guass/ERPPC/ERLL that they end up gimping their brawling firepower, making them unable to push as Attackers or hold ground as Defenders. Clans dont have that problem because all of thier mechs can field SRM6 or ERMLs as backups due to thier added pod space as a result of thier lighter weapons/engines.

[Grantham Besat]

So a clan team that is all erll can beat an all erppc team well sucks if is get closer which they always do. It was FRR units I saw out gunning clans on vale at range guess they have the good FRR piolts.

Edited by Grantham Besat, 16 December 2014 - 09:20 AM.

[Apnu]

All of this would be unnecessary if we had 10v12.
Quirks, clan tech -- all of it would be unnecessary.

Clan tech is OP by design! PGI and some people around here keep insisting it should be balanced with IS tech.

This is dead wrong.

Clans should have less mechs, at less tonnage on the field when facing IS teams.

Clans are supposed to be the super-uber elite of human potential. They're supposed to have a tech edge on IS. The IS is supposed to be the unwashed masses, the trash heap of humanity. They're supposed to have old crap but a lot of it to throw into the Clan war machine's maw.

Clans are supposed to be so awesome and tech advantaged, they wipe the IS off the map with less guys in smaller mechs.

MWO has none of this. PGI insists on considering the DWF should be balanced against a AS7. This is laughable. The clan XL engine alone makes anything the DWF has better than anything put on the AS7.

the same is true for the KGC vs the DWF. Its a closer match because, at short range, the KGC can get close to the DWF's alpha, but it will lose in DPS and range every single time.

This game's balance will remain broken until PGI realizes that clan tech and IS tech cannot be balanced one-for-one with out removing the things that make clans different from IS.

There will come a point in this game, after all the dev. contortions with tech, ROF and ghost heat, there will be no statistical difference between the two. At that point, everything will be same, so what's the point of having factions at all?

[AlmightyAeng]

Quote

Apnu's above post.

This will never happen. Give up your pipedream.

1) Servers cost money. PGI wants the maximum amount of players playing at a time. 12 v 12.
2) Few people want to play the 'unwashed masses with lots of mechs' instead of the super special uber human. It is not profitable to create such a system.
3) It is more profitable for PGI to create balanced but different sides in a conflict. If you make one side WAY COOLER then only those people are going to actually cough up dough.

[Sigmar Sich]

I think quirks as they are was a bad decision. Good balance when things have different strengths and different weaknesses. And quirks just trying bring IS weapons up to clantech, and mostly only if you use suggested loadout. I believe it would be better if IS quirks was about more solid structure hitpoints and armor, sometimes about heat (which all could be explained with bulky structure and far less compact equipment placing), but not about weapon range or velocity. I dont like to see magic buffs in Battletech..
P.S. piloting only IS.

[Scout Derek]

You know what I say; play the **** game. End of story.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Tarmok II, on 16 December 2014 - 01:20 AM, said:

wow sounds like u never had to play against an organiced clan drop urslef

Well, organized IS can do just as well as Organized clans......Its teamwork and coordination that are OP, not the IS or clans....

Its the gamemode of CW that is OP or UP or unbalanced, not the clans or IS.....

If clans truly were OP, then any tom **** or harry could hop in a Dire Whale and essentially curb stomp any puggie team no effort....

[Angel of Annihilation]

Tarmok II, on 16 December 2014 - 01:20 AM, said:

wow sounds like u never had to play against an organiced clan drop urslef

Works both way. Playing against an organized IS drop is not walk in the part either. Clan mechs are hampered by the amount of heat they produced especially since during a rush, you don't really have time to allow your weapons to cool properly. IS mechs easily have a higher sustained damage capability.

Honestly alot of what is going on in CW is due to unit organization. From what I have been able to tell, the major clan units in Clan Wolf such as CWI, GK and CWDG, are highly organized, disciplined, dedicated and focused 100% on the competitive game. Call them Veteran or Elite status units. On the contrast, there are so many FRR units that I run into that seem to be just goofing off or really casual focused. Honestly out of 25-30 drops I made this weekend I have only faced 2 strong and coordinated FRR units that I would consider of Veteran or Elite quality compared to at least 5 FRR units that were very poorly coordinated and led and generally no higher quality than then average PUG. Lets call them Green quality units.

Of course PUGs are PUGs and all sides have these guys losing alot of match ups and generally sabotaging the hard efforts of the major competitive units. I mean it really sucks for your competitive unit to have a 100% win rate on the planet your attacking but come back to see Clan Wolf as a whole has lost 2 win tokens in the last 30 mins.

Really wish CW allowed a unit to bid on a World and they became exclusively responsible for it for that attack phase. Also once you take territory, the only way a unit should lose territory is if the opposing faction actually takes it away from you.

[MerryIguana]

Kilgorin Strom, on 16 December 2014 - 06:08 AM, said:

The IS medium Blackjack, the Shadow Hawk, and the Hunchback are all at least as good as the SC.

Funny stuff.

[Brody319]

Love all the bads in the thread being like "Nau! Clans can only be OP. We must nerf them till my quickdraw can kill a direwolf alone face-to-face.!"

[KuroNyra]

Brody319, on 16 December 2014 - 09:51 AM, said:

Love all the bads in the thread being like "Nau! Clans can only be OP. We must nerf them till my quickdraw can kill a direwolf alone face-to-face.!"

Worst is: I actually saw that complain ingame.

[InspectorG]

Tarmok II, on 16 December 2014 - 01:20 AM, said:

wow sounds like u never had to play against an organiced clan drop urslef

Key word: 'organized'

[POWR]

Your clan quirks will not apply to the big ones anyway... just like there are none on the best IS mechs.

[InspectorG]

Just shoot their arms off.

'Trap the arm', then 'sweep the leg'.

[Pezzer]

Grantham Besat, on 16 December 2014 - 09:16 AM, said:

So a clan team that is all erll can beat an all erppc team well sucks if is get closer which they always do. It was FRR units I saw out gunning clans on vale at range guess they have the good FRR piolts.

Because 4-5 ERPPC mechs and a bunch of other random AC/ML mechs are going to outclass a total of 12-14 ERLL, 1-4 Guass, maybe 2 AC/5, 6+ ERML, and 4+SRM6 at close range? Unless the other random IS mechs include some AC/10s and 16+ total ML, I still think the Clans have the advantage, which is the problem.

The Stormcrow and Timberwolf have tonnage to spare on knife-fighting equipment to go with thier ERLLs. For every ERLL the Inner Sphere has, the Clans get a C-ERLL with better range AND a ERML. That's what I think the fundamental problem with Clan v IS balance is, the Timber and Storm can pack on way too much equipment on thier mechs, so much in fact that they could outfit themselves with a tool for every situation if they wanted. They can have 1-2 ERLL each backed up by a million ERML or 2-4 ERML and some SRMs.

How can you still possibly believe in any universe that the 2 technologies are balanced currently, at any range? As a IS and Clan player, I can admit that the Clans are easy mode when compared to IS, why can't you come to that rational realization?

Edited by Pezzer, 16 December 2014 - 10:37 AM.

[pwnface]

The clans don't have any heavy mechs that can effectively field 2xGauss. Gauss > unquirked ERPPC for sniping. I'm happy to trade with enemy clan mechs at long range (800m-1km) with my 2xGauss builds as they try to spray me with ERLL/ERPPC damage. There are enough IS quirked mech options to compete against clan mechs. The state of balance between IS and Clan is better than it has ever been.

[pwnface]

Pezzer, on 16 December 2014 - 10:36 AM, said:

Because 4-5 ERPPC mechs and a bunch of other random AC/ML mechs are going to outclass a total of 12-14 ERLL, 1-4 Guass, maybe 2 AC/5, 6+ ERML, and 4+SRM6 at close range? Unless the other random IS mechs include some AC/10s and 16+ total ML, I still think the Clans have the advantage, which is the problem.

The Stormcrow and Timberwolf have tonnage to spare on knife-fighting equipment to go with thier ERLLs. For every ERLL the Inner Sphere has, the Clans get a C-ERLL with better range AND a ERML. That's what I think the fundamental problem with Clan v IS balance is, the Timber and Storm can pack on way too much equipment on thier mechs, so much in fact that they could outfit themselves with a tool for every situation if they wanted. They can have 1-2 ERLL each backed up by a million ERML or 2-4 ERML and some SRMs.

How can you still possibly believe in any universe that the 2 technologies are balanced currently, at any range? As a IS and Clan player, I've come to the conclusion that Clans are easy mode when compared to the IS, why can't you come to that rational realization?

You just arbitrarily threw up a bunch of weapons in an imaginary IS drop deck and said it would lose to superior clan weapons. How is anyone supposed to take that argument seriously? If you are defending and can dictate the range of engagement bring ERPPC and 2xGauss builds for IS mechs. TDR-9S, JM6-S, CTF-3D, KGC-000 are all great for long range sniping and can trade FINE against clan lasers. The exception here MIGHT be 4x C-ERLL TBRs.

Edited by pwnface, 16 December 2014 - 10:42 AM.

[Sheraf]

Grantham Besat, on 16 December 2014 - 01:22 AM, said:

Actully I have dropped against organized is groups and clan groups. I would rather fight clanners.

I agree fighting clanner is easier.

[FupDup]

The truth about Clan mechs is that their performance is being heavily skewed by a handful of outlier chassis.

As it stands at the moment, there isn't much disagreement about the infamous "Holy Trinity" of the top three Omnimechs at the moment: Dire Whale, Timbergod, and Doomcrow. Heck, the Whale isn't even used that much in CW because of tonnage limits and the Clans lacking good light mechs as tonnage sinks. The Whale is mostly a pugstomper at this point.

However, it's important to remember that those three outlier chassis do NOT represent the Clans as a whole. Not all Clan Gundams are created equal (or IS ones, for that matter).


There are currently 13 total Clan robots available.

• Mist Lynx
  
• Kit Fox
  
• Adder
  
• Ice Ferret
  
• Nova
  
• Stormcrow
  
• Mad Dog
  
• Hellbringer
  
• Summoner
  
• Timberwolf
  
• Man O' War
  
• Warhawk
  
• Dire Wolf

How many of those 13 are dominant mechs? As mentioned above, the clearest contenders for that rank are the SCR, TBR, and DWF. Maybe we could also throw in the HBR, but just barely. So that makes for 3-4 out of 13 chassis being the top dogs in their classes. In percentage form, that can be expressed as 23-30%.

23-30% of them are dominant mechs, therefore we need to nerf all 100% of them!

------------------

TL;DR: The moral of the story is that not all Gundams are created equal. We can't say that every mech for a faction is good or bad just by looking at a few of their available choices. If anything, we shouldn't even be trying to balance the entire factions until the performance gaps within each faction are cleared up. Otherwise, we'll end up either having to nerf the underused chassis because of outliers or leaving the outliers crazy strong because of the underused ones. Both opposites suck. We need to dramatically reduce inter-faction inequalities first and foremost.

Edited by FupDup, 16 December 2014 - 11:34 AM.

[Fenris Ulfr]

You could take that a step further and state that the power of the IS mechs is hidden among many bad chassis to find the good quirked ones. At this time I feel that the clans are underpowered compared to IS. It sucks having to face tank a mech instead of twisting after each shot.