165 replies to this topic

[pwnface]

FupDup, on 16 December 2014 - 11:33 AM, said:

The truth about Clan mechs is that their performance is being heavily skewed by a handful of outlier chassis.

As it stands at the moment, there isn't much disagreement about the infamous "Holy Trinity" of the top three Omnimechs at the moment: Dire Whale, Timbergod, and Doomcrow. Heck, the Whale isn't even used that much in CW because of tonnage limits and the Clans lacking good light mechs as tonnage sinks. The Whale is mostly a pugstomper at this point.

However, it's important to remember that those three outlier chassis do NOT represent the Clans as a whole. Not all Clan Gundams are created equal (or IS ones, for that matter).


There are currently 13 total Clan robots available.

• Mist Lynx
  
• Kit Fox
  
• Adder
  
• Ice Ferret
  
• Nova
  
• Stormcrow
  
• Mad Dog
  
• Hellbringer
  
• Summoner
  
• Timberwolf
  
• Man O' War
  
• Warhawk
  
• Dire Wolf

How many of those 13 are dominant mechs? As mentioned above, the clearest contenders for that rank are the SCR, TBR, and DWF. Maybe we could also throw in the HBR, but just barely. So that makes for 3-4 out of 13 chassis being the top dogs in their classes. In percentage form, that can be expressed as 23-30%.

23-30% of them are dominant mechs, therefore we need to nerf all 100% of them!

------------------

TL;DR: The moral of the story is that not all Gundams are created equal. We can't say that every mech for a faction is good or bad just by looking at a few of their available choices. If anything, we shouldn't even be trying to balance the entire factions until the performance gaps within each faction are cleared up. Otherwise, we'll end up either having to nerf the underused chassis because of outliers or leaving the outliers crazy strong because of the underused ones. Both opposites suck. We need to dramatically reduce inter-faction inequalities first and foremost.

While I mostly agree with your post, I have to point out how skewed your statics are. You stated that 3-4 chassis are the top dogs in their classes, yet there are only 4 weight classes... Your actual statistic based on your statement should be 75-100% of the top dogs for each weight class are clan mechs.

I think for CW the Warhawk is probably a better option compared to a DWF, especially if you are attacking. I believe the Warhawk is incredibly undervalued by most people and the 4xLPL build is extremely potent.

[FupDup]

pwnface, on 16 December 2014 - 12:00 PM, said:

While I mostly agree with your post, I have to point out how skewed your statics are. You stated that 3-4 chassis are the top dogs in their classes, yet there are only 4 weight classes... Your actual statistic based on your statement should be 75-100% of the top dogs for each weight class are clan mechs.

This brings up the problem of balancing entire factions around outlier chassis again. Throwing out big numbers like 75% gives the impression that nearly every Clan mech is dominant, which is not the case at all. 100% isn't even valid because IS wins the light class.

Again, there are too many gaps within each faction to try to nerf or buff entire factions in one sweep without bad consequences. The inter-faction inequalities need to be smoothed out before we can proceed, otherwise we're going to either nerf mechs that are already bad just to spite the outlier mechs OR we would not touch the outliers in order to avoid killing the underused mechs.

We need to balance mechs on a per-case, per-chassis basis, not sweeping one whole faction at a time.

pwnface, on 16 December 2014 - 12:00 PM, said:

I think for CW the Warhawk is probably a better option compared to a DWF, especially if you are attacking. I believe the Warhawk is incredibly undervalued by most people and the 4xLPL build is extremely potent.

I've been using 4 LPL on my Peacedove before it was cool.

Edited by FupDup, 16 December 2014 - 12:07 PM.

[Dimento Graven]

Let me preface everything with this:

YES, a few IS 'mechs have been quirked into being seriously OP and need to be fixed.

That said, we have a few Clan 'mechs and/or weapons that need a bit of tweaking.

Overall, I don't really believe there is an actual problem.

Especially since I've yet to find the IS 'mech that can vomit out 1200+ points of damage in under 2.5 minutes like various clan variants can.

A lot of the worst players in Clan 'mechs that I've seen are some of the same ones I'm seeing posting here, I love fighting those guys, all you have to do is wait for them to overheat and then shoot them in the face, or get out of their sight for 3 seconds so they forget that you exist, and 'surprise' them by walking around the opposite corner and shoot them in the face. They have no concept of heat management, and barely any situational awareness.

So they come here and mostly complain about extremes and vague generalities but provide little specifics. Those few specifics I have seen are easily countered by the extreme amount of matching specifics within the IS 'mech pool.

[Sandpit]

Tarmok II, on 16 December 2014 - 01:20 AM, said:

wow sounds like u never had to play against an organiced clan drop urslef

I have
As a solo player
We won
It's not the mechs or the balance that's the issue

[Kiiyor]

FupDup, on 16 December 2014 - 12:06 PM, said:

This brings up the problem of balancing entire factions around outlier chassis again. Throwing out big numbers like 75% gives the impression that nearly every Clan mech is dominant, which is not the case at all. 100% isn't even valid because IS wins the light class.

Again, there are too many gaps within each faction to try to nerf or buff entire factions in one sweep without bad consequences. The inter-faction inequalities need to be smoothed out before we can proceed, otherwise we're going to either nerf mechs that are already bad just to spite the outlier mechs OR we would not touch the outliers in order to avoid killing the underused mechs.

We need to balance mechs on a per-case, per-chassis basis, not sweeping one whole faction at a time.



I've been using 4 LPL on my Peacedove before it was cool.

These are great points. The clans are mostly judged (perhaps unfairly) on the performance of a handful of their mechs.

The trouble is, that each mech in that handful are the best at what they do. The triumvirate of evil are always dangerous when encountered singly, and are a completely dominant force when they are used in a clan drop deck. If the clans had a light with a decent turn of speed and decent hitboxes, they would be unstoppable.

I don't think the Clans as a whole need to be rebalanced, but I also don't think we should nerf the overperformers either - mainly because their performance is based on a lot of small things adding up to make a deadly package. Clan mechs are already far less user friendly than 'Sphere mechs, with their incredibly high heat and long duration lasers and DOT's on other weapons. If you add too many negative quirks new players will need some form of piloting degree just to be able to power them on.

I think quirks (or some other system that buffs under performers) or CW tonnage limit adjustments are the way to go.

Quirk up all the not-MadCat-StormCrow-DireWolves - and after that, people will probably just have to accept the fact that these three very well designed mechs are probably still going to be a dominant force on the battlefield, through virtue of just being... good. You can give bad mechs all the quirks in the world, but that will never fix bad hitboxes.

[Cool will never die but you will]

I cant believe I actually read this whole topic, every post and I still believe its all about player skill and team work...as PGI has intended.

P.S. if IS is so OP, why are the clans gaining so much ground in CW?


"When I played, the owners had the power. The prisoners are running the prison now, not the warden. The warden is strong and he has say so but, the balance of power is definitely with the players." -- Julius Erving

[pwnface]

angryjohnny, on 16 December 2014 - 03:11 PM, said:

I cant believe I actually read this whole topic, every post and I still believe its all about player skill and team work...as PGI has intended.

P.S. if IS is so OP, why are the clans gaining so much ground in CW?


"When I played, the owners had the power. The prisoners are running the prison now, not the warden. The warden is strong and he has say so but, the balance of power is definitely with the players." -- Julius Erving

Gaining ground in CW right now has more to do with faction populations rather than actual skill. You could defend a planet successfully 10 times in a row but still be losing the planet because there are 3 or 4 teams attacking the planet and you are only facing off against one team at a time. For every successful defense you would still lose 2-3 points to the teams who are getting autowin ghost drops against no opponents.

Clan vs IS are relatively balanced on a macro scale. There are chassis on both sides that could use some love.

Edited by pwnface, 16 December 2014 - 03:16 PM.

[Asmudius Heng]

The Madcat and Ryoken are just the perfect storm of FAN-BLOODY-TASTIC hitboxes, the right engine for the job and good hardpoint options along with being gifted with Endo and FF unlike some clan mechs.

They are fast, durable (Magic clan XL engines) and powerful.

All the other clan mechs are still good - but come with flaws to exploit just like most IS mechs.

These two mechs are the outliers - right now i just leg them on site because CT hitboxes dont take much damage and shooting side torsos is wasting your time because you need to take off the other torso or CT to kill them.

Durability is thier main advantage i find - i can deal with most other stuff though a few clan lasers are well above top performing and their gauss is just flat out better.

[DONTOR]

The Mechromancer, on 16 December 2014 - 02:26 AM, said:

I honestly think that the talent pool of clan players is higher than IS... in order to field 4 clan mechs you gotta have either a ton of c-bills or put $$$ into the game, those 2 groups tend to be the more experienced players i would imagine.

or at least, have a much smaller pool of "bad" players.

Its true, I will crush the inner sphere with my Clan space wallet!

[Davegt27]

Quote

Ok so you fear the clans

before the 2nd TW Nerf my PUG piloted TW could put the hurt on you

now I haven't even used my real money TW out in a week

Edited by Davegt27, 16 December 2014 - 04:05 PM.

[Toadkillerdog]

FupDup, on 16 December 2014 - 12:06 PM, said:

This brings up the problem of balancing entire factions around outlier chassis again. Throwing out big numbers like 75% gives the impression that nearly every Clan mech is dominant, which is not the case at all. 100% isn't even valid because IS wins the light class.

Again, there are too many gaps within each faction to try to nerf or buff entire factions in one sweep without bad consequences. The inter-faction inequalities need to be smoothed out before we can proceed, otherwise we're going to either nerf mechs that are already bad just to spite the outlier mechs OR we would not touch the outliers in order to avoid killing the underused mechs.

We need to balance mechs on a per-case, per-chassis basis, not sweeping one whole faction at a time.



I've been using 4 LPL on my Peacedove before it was cool.

I'll agree with ya on that one, I've currently mastered most of the Wave 1 clan mechs (finishing up my Twolf and Warhawks now), and there is some blatant differences between the chassis. Summoner is just a giant pile of ****, it packs less guns than my Stormcrow, goes slower, has a bigger profile, and takes more weight. That being said, the outlier clan mechs are pretty absurdly OP. I don't think I've seen anyone on here mention the clan xl engines, but you basically get the speed of an xl with absolutely none of the drawbacks. My Battlemaster is still my IS favorite, but the xl I need to get around and still pack a punch makes it really easy to bring down with some focused fire. I can take my Stormcrow and dance in front of an Atlas for quite awhile before it kills me, thanks to the strongly distributed hitboxes (side torsos ALWAYS come off first on the big 3 clan mechs, no old school Dragon coring), the very high speed (90 in a heavy for IS means you have almost no guns), and the durability of the engine. I should not be able to laugh at assaults blazing at me in a medium, but the fact of the matter is clan mechs are extremely durable, without even getting into the weapon discrepancies.

[Asmudius Heng]

Toadkillerdog, on 16 December 2014 - 04:15 PM, said:

I'll agree with ya on that one, I've currently mastered most of the Wave 1 clan mechs (finishing up my Twolf and Warhawks now), and there is some blatant differences between the chassis. Summoner is just a giant pile of ****, it packs less guns than my Stormcrow, goes slower, has a bigger profile, and takes more weight. That being said, the outlier clan mechs are pretty absurdly OP. I don't think I've seen anyone on here mention the clan xl engines, but you basically get the speed of an xl with absolutely none of the drawbacks. My Battlemaster is still my IS favorite, but the xl I need to get around and still pack a punch makes it really easy to bring down with some focused fire. I can take my Stormcrow and dance in front of an Atlas for quite awhile before it kills me, thanks to the strongly distributed hitboxes (side torsos ALWAYS come off first on the big 3 clan mechs, no old school Dragon coring), the very high speed (90 in a heavy for IS means you have almost no guns), and the durability of the engine. I should not be able to laugh at assaults blazing at me in a medium, but the fact of the matter is clan mechs are extremely durable, without even getting into the weapon discrepancies.

This to repeat - its the XL engine and amazeballs hitboxes that really make the Madcat and Ryoken shine.

[Pezzer]

pwnface, on 16 December 2014 - 10:40 AM, said:

You just arbitrarily threw up a bunch of weapons in an imaginary IS drop deck and said it would lose to superior clan weapons. How is anyone supposed to take that argument seriously? If you are defending and can dictate the range of engagement bring ERPPC and 2xGauss builds for IS mechs. TDR-9S, JM6-S, CTF-3D, KGC-000 are all great for long range sniping and can trade FINE against clan lasers. The exception here MIGHT be 4x C-ERLL TBRs.

You clearly didn't "get" the point that I was trying to make, using average weapons that 90% of competitive mech builds in each tech use as a base to depict the current lopsidedness. That's okay I guess, my point will be there for the viewing pleasure of others.

[Christof Romulus]

crustydog, on 16 December 2014 - 01:39 AM, said:

Yup - I agree completely with this Post observation, the poor Clans are so fracked that their only hope of victory is when they get to fight in terrain that is specifically suitable for their otherwise crippled mechs. Their equipment is so bad that without all of those weapon advantages it would become simply unusable altogether.

It is only the surpreme quality of the Clan pilots that keeps them in the field at all at this point.

The fact is that the IS has become so OP, should the IS pilots ever learn how to drive their own mechs, the Clans are obviously doomed.

As things stand now, I, for one, have already written off the Clans.

Probably something should be done to restore the proper balance to such obviously mismatched forces.

Lucky for everyone here, I do have a working solution for this problem. The answer is obviously that we should force the IS to start using more Clan weapons in IS mechs so as to weaken those IS forces and bring balance back to this battlefield.

[Pezzer]

Toadkillerdog, on 16 December 2014 - 04:15 PM, said:

I'll agree with ya on that one, I've currently mastered most of the Wave 1 clan mechs (finishing up my Twolf and Warhawks now), and there is some blatant differences between the chassis. Summoner is just a giant pile of ****, it packs less guns than my Stormcrow, goes slower, has a bigger profile, and takes more weight. That being said, the outlier clan mechs are pretty absurdly OP. I don't think I've seen anyone on here mention the clan xl engines, but you basically get the speed of an xl with absolutely none of the drawbacks. My Battlemaster is still my IS favorite, but the xl I need to get around and still pack a punch makes it really easy to bring down with some focused fire. I can take my Stormcrow and dance in front of an Atlas for quite awhile before it kills me, thanks to the strongly distributed hitboxes (side torsos ALWAYS come off first on the big 3 clan mechs, no old school Dragon coring), the very high speed (90 in a heavy for IS means you have almost no guns), and the durability of the engine. I should not be able to laugh at assaults blazing at me in a medium, but the fact of the matter is clan mechs are extremely durable, without even getting into the weapon discrepancies.

This, a million times. And he isn't even talking about what I've been focused on, the firepower discrepancies.

Also, gotta say that the Summoner is amazing if you just pretend it's an IS mech. I pilot it like a Jager and have done 850+ damage with it 2 matches in a row. That being said it pales in comparison to the Hellbringer/Timber simply because they're easier to dominate with.

[pwnface]

Pezzer, on 16 December 2014 - 04:35 PM, said:

You clearly didn't "get" the point that I was trying to make, using average weapons that 90% of competitive mech builds in each tech use as a base to depict the current lopsidedness. That's okay I guess, my point will be there for the viewing pleasure of others.

What competitive mech builds are you talking about? You do realize that the builds that are successful in Community Warfare can be and are often wildly different from traditional 12v12 game modes right?

If you are bringing medium or close range weapons on the first wave as a defender you are doing something incredibly wrong. If you think clan lasers alpha can out trade 2xGauss mechs at long range you need to learn how to aim better.

[pwnface]

Pezzer, on 16 December 2014 - 09:13 AM, said:

IS still loses at range unless they field so much Guass/ERPPC/ERLL that they end up gimping their brawling firepower, making them unable to push as Attackers or hold ground as Defenders. Clans dont have that problem because all of thier mechs can field SRM6 or ERMLs as backups due to thier added pod space as a result of thier lighter weapons/engines.

You do realize that you get more than 1 mech right? Bring the right tool for the job. You can match ranged firepower early in the match and switch to closer ranged builds after the gates open.

You don't need to push as attackers until you establish a kill lead or cripple the enemy team with long range fire.

You don't need to stand by the gate as defenders to greet brawlers in a sniper mech if the enemy team is pushing in. You can easily leg enemy mechs pushing toward your base and let your base defenses assist you in killing the attacking team. It is much smarter to give the attackers room to push and crush them as they approach you.

[oldradagast]

Grantham Besat, on 16 December 2014 - 01:16 AM, said:

Ok so you fear the clans. Why you fear them makes little to no sense. You have better ballistics, short burn lasers, and most importantly quirks. The erppc and med pulse Thunderbolts are ten tons lighter and more than up to wrecking a Timber or Hellbringer when piolted decently. You have the Dragon with its AC5 that never stops. Now the game favors burst damage and your assaults like the Banshee or Awsome cam drop a quirked alpha and twist a shield side up to take the hits before their next alpha. Clans cant do that. Range is your gripe well try being a clan mech with erll and be in a long range fight with any of the Erppc range and velocity quirked is chasis. Look at the vindicator 40% velcoity? So clans at range have to hold a laser on target while eating ppfld return fire. Clans in a brawl are eatting wub or ppfld ballistic from mechs that have shield arms and sides to twist while the clanner has to hold on target with his ultra or laser weapons. Even the dreaded storm crow is just a generalist and will die to its quirked IS counterparts when they build to their quirks. So your issue is not clans are op your issue is that you dont use the amazing mechs you have in abundance.

Hilarious...

The CW forum is rapidly becoming the "spout off nonsense to tick people off" forum.

For the record, in IS vs. Clan matches, Clans were still winning more frequently by a noticeable margin.

As for the rest, it's BS.

Clan mechs have better speed and about 50% more firepower for a small reduction in durability (Clan XL vs. IS standard... assuming the IS is using standard engines, otherwise Clan wins again) and front loaded damage.

And yet, Clan can STILL dish out front-loaded damage - Gauss rifles, ERPPC - and also put out much higher DPS on average.

Finally, the ability to move as a cohesive unit, heavies and even a few assaults included, as opposed to the IS mechs being all over the place in speed, offers an additional edge in CW where blob rushing is a strategy.

While I wouldn't say Clans are "overpowered," it is utterly laughable to pretend that they don't have an edge.

Oh, and for the record, the top level players are running nothing but Stormcrows and Timberwolves, with the occasional ECM mech tossed in... but we're to believe that they are "running inferior mechs" and "it's all skill" when it comes to winning with the best mechs in the game... right... just more people confusing buying the best mech with actual ability... unreal.

[Sandpit]

oldradagast, on 16 December 2014 - 06:21 PM, said:

Hilarious...

The CW forum is rapidly becoming the "spout off nonsense to tick people off" forum.

For the record, in IS vs. Clan matches, Clans were still winning more frequently by a noticeable margin.

As for the rest, it's BS.

Clan mechs have better speed and about 50% more firepower for a small reduction in durability (Clan XL vs. IS standard... assuming the IS is using standard engines, otherwise Clan wins again) and front loaded damage.

And yet, Clan can STILL dish out front-loaded damage - Gauss rifles, ERPPC - and also put out much higher DPS on average.

Finally, the ability to move as a cohesive unit, heavies and even a few assaults included, as opposed to the IS mechs being all over the place in speed, offers an additional edge in CW where blob rushing is a strategy.

While I wouldn't say Clans are "overpowered," it is utterly laughable to pretend that they don't have an edge.

Oh, and for the record, the top level players are running nothing but Stormcrows and Timberwolves, with the occasional ECM mech tossed in... but we're to believe that they are "running inferior mechs" and "it's all skill" when it comes to winning with the best mechs in the game... right... just more people confusing buying the best mech with actual ability... unreal.

Amazing...
So...
Just a question then...
If clans are "winning more frequently by a noticeable margin" (nevermind that I haven't asked where your data comes from) why aren't they running through the IS taking planets left and right?

Top level players....
Hmmm
Who are the top level players?
Is there a leaderboard I missed somewhere?

oh, and where's your data coming from? Just curious

[oldradagast]

Sandpit, on 16 December 2014 - 06:30 PM, said:

Amazing...
So...
Just a question then...
If clans are "winning more frequently by a noticeable margin" (nevermind that I haven't asked where your data comes from) why aren't they running through the IS taking planets left and right?

Top level players....
Hmmm
Who are the top level players?
Is there a leaderboard I missed somewhere?

oh, and where's your data coming from? Just curious

If you have to ask who the top level players are, you aren't one of them.

But sure, let's keep on pretending people like Lords, etc. are actually running nothing but Clans because they "want the challenge" and trying not to win.

Also, if you bothered to read my post - instead of picking a fight - you'd notice that I said that Clans are NOT broken. They just have an edge.

A history lesson: The Clans went from winning 90% of games to 73% (old post: https://twitter.com/...040393781686273) to no doubt less post-quirks. Still, even if Clans are winning 55% that still means they are superior.

As far as I know, there's no up to date data on Clan win ratios, but it is still laughable to claim that they are "weak."

All that IS known is the better players and teams - the people who are in it to win - are playing Clans.