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Spawn Killing


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#1 GorganKnight

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 06:37 AM

this is about CW sometimes when its later in the game and your attacking (mostly) the enemy will sorround your drop point and kill you within seconds. PGI can you prevent that?

#2 Smokeyjedi

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 06:50 AM

I see you have had run ins with Clan Jade Exploit.......3 drops of this crap and I let loose a string of hatred towards these min/maxers who also use exploits......Stay classy dirtbags..... spawn killed 2 of my 4 mechs because of course DC'd once per mech in most of these clan matches. DC'd 3 times that match and still did 800damage against those clowns.

Edited by Smokeyjedi, 17 December 2014 - 06:52 AM.


#3 SnagaDance

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 07:15 AM

The OP is referring to a late in the game situation. I've been in a succesful defense where in the end we were in the lead by something like 43 kills vs 20. Those 5 mechs were from 3 players, 2 of whom were disconnected so they would never move towards our base on their own. So we moved out and 'camped the spawn'. A necessary possibility, especially when you have to deal with disconnects, or would you suggest we would have needed to wait for almost 6 minutes instead?

Rushing to camp a spawn early in the game and then waiting for the piñata dropships to drop the candy in a trickly is something different though. You need to discourage the latter while making the former not impossible. Upping the dropship weapons might help but that would give the defenders' spawn even more of an advantage. These kind of things can be a hard balance act.

#4 Wintersdark

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 07:17 AM

View PostSmokeyjedi, on 17 December 2014 - 06:50 AM, said:

I see you have had run ins with Clan Jade Exploit.......3 drops of this crap and I let loose a string of hatred towards these min/maxers who also use exploits......Stay classy dirtbags..... spawn killed 2 of my 4 mechs because of course DC'd once per mech in most of these clan matches. DC'd 3 times that match and still did 800damage against those clowns.

It's not an exploit.

Walking up at fighting by the attacker dropships is functionally the same as fighting by the defender dropships, after all. Each dropship is bringing a medium/heavy mechs' firepower as it delivers mechs in.

Anyways, the reality of the situation is that if the defenders are at the spawn point killing attackers as they arrive, the attackers have already decidedly lost. They're just speeding things along.

#5 Smokeyjedi

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 07:50 AM

View PostWintersdark, on 17 December 2014 - 07:17 AM, said:

It's not an exploit.

Walking up at fighting by the attacker dropships is functionally the same as fighting by the defender dropships, after all. Each dropship is bringing a medium/heavy mechs' firepower as it delivers mechs in.

Anyways, the reality of the situation is that if the defenders are at the spawn point killing attackers as they arrive, the attackers have already decidedly lost. They're just speeding things along.

Than you madam, are part of the problem, and offer no solution. Typical clan filth.

#6 o0Marduk0o

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 07:55 AM

To offer a solution you have to agree on having a problem. This is not the case here.

#7 Wintersdark

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 08:01 AM

View PostSmokeyjedi, on 17 December 2014 - 07:50 AM, said:

Than you madam, are part of the problem, and offer no solution.
I dispute that there is a problem. As I disagree that there is a problem, why would I offer a solution?

As to being "part of the problem"? Yes, late in the game, I absolutely will advance on the drop ships to mop up, in the rare case we're winning a defense.

Note that this only happens when the attackers are bad at CW, because winning on the attack is trivially easy. If they're already losing, and losing badly enough that I'm willing to risk leaving the base basically undefended (and thus vulnerable to "leg them and leave them") then yeah, the game is over. It's been over since the attacking team decided to be bad and just stand at the gates and play peekaboo.

When defending, I must defend my base. And i must do that when you're fighting right around where I'm spawning too! When attacking, you must defend your base as well.

Quote

Typical clan filth.
Yes, because my forum badge clearly makes any difference at all. Of course. How silly of me.

This is not a "role play" discussion. It's a discussion about game mechanics. Faction is irrelevant here. I am neither a clanner nor a IS mechwarrior, I'm a father of two living in Canada trying to discuss gameplay mechanics.

Edited by Wintersdark, 17 December 2014 - 08:05 AM.


#8 SixstringSamurai

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 08:07 AM

Wait to you all run into the unit that figured out how to smoke an incoming dropship. You think having the enemy in your spawn is a problem? Then keep the enemy out of your spawn. It is literally that simple.

#9 Voivode

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 08:42 AM

View PostSmokeyjedi, on 17 December 2014 - 06:50 AM, said:

I see you have had run ins with Clan Jade Exploit.......3 drops of this crap and I let loose a string of hatred towards these min/maxers who also use exploits......Stay classy dirtbags..... spawn killed 2 of my 4 mechs because of course DC'd once per mech in most of these clan matches. DC'd 3 times that match and still did 800damage against those clowns.


Sounds like a counterassault to me, a tactic to disrupt the necessary coordination of an assault on the cannon. I wouldn't describe it as an exploit, though I think ultimately the game may benefit from longer spawn times in general, perhaps longest for the attackers since they would benefit most from being dropped in larger groups.

#10 salkeee

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 08:43 AM

I also dont like those spawn kills that literaly doesnt alow one that are losing even slight chance to get back.And geting some edge at begining should not be deciding factor.

Not sure what could fix this thou.

#11 Voivode

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 08:45 AM

View PostGorganKnight, on 17 December 2014 - 06:37 AM, said:

this is about CW sometimes when its later in the game and your attacking (mostly) the enemy will sorround your drop point and kill you within seconds. PGI can you prevent that?


I don't think they should prevent that. If they do (say, by putting a large, grounded dropship with the firepower of four assault mechs at the spawn) then the last few mechs of an assault can just huddle by it and everyone is stuck waiting for the timer to run out on a match in which the conclusion is a foregone thing.

#12 That Dawg

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 08:47 AM

View PostGorganKnight, on 17 December 2014 - 06:37 AM, said:

this is about CW sometimes when its later in the game and your attacking (mostly) the enemy will sorround your drop point and kill you within seconds. PGI can you prevent that?


No, its an actual tactic now.

View PostVoivode, on 17 December 2014 - 08:45 AM, said:


I don't think they should prevent that. If they do (say, by putting a large, grounded dropship with the firepower of four assault mechs at the spawn) then the last few mechs of an assault can just huddle by it and everyone is stuck waiting for the timer to run out on a match in which the conclusion is a foregone thing.



Unlike now, how smoothly its working! :P

#13 MalodorousMonkey

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 09:13 AM

An organized group can, in theory, prevent this by sticking together as a group. It really becomes a problem mostly when a pug team is facing an organized drop.

Faced Antares Scropions in a pug team, and they rushed us with lights as soon as the game began. We had split up to take out all the gates, so they just decimated half our team, and then decimated them again when they were dropped again. At that point, we were pretty much screwed. The rest of the team didn't retreat to help, and their push was halted by a lance of assaults left at their base. It was a well coordinated plan.

I don't blame them for using the tactic. It's a legitimate tactic as it is in the game right now. Heck, they were real gentlemen players. (There were two guys from the MLFC unit on our team that were the real poor sports.)

If PGI decides they want to curb this type of play for PUGs, I don't mind, but I don't sense that this is an epidemic if there are two organized teams against each other from the start.

#14 Barkem Squirrel

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 09:43 AM

I have been on both sides of this, so I do not see this as an exploit, but as an effective tactic.

In a defence, a hasty attack should be planned for. The military even trains people to take advantage of the situation and attack from a defence.

One thing it is risky in MWO, but if you can focus on one or two at a time and make them respawn it disrupts the next wave and later attacks. It is even better if they try to maintain contact or you force contact, there by attacking from a defence.

There is Art of War by Sun Tzu, but Clausewitz I think states it in a way most people can understand. I still think the original in german is better, and some of his later works should only be read in german, due to the quality of translation.

PRINCIPLES OF WAR

by

Carl von Clausewitz


Tactics Or The Theory Of Combat

1. General Principles For Defense


6. A fundamental principle is never to remain completely passive, but to attack the enemy frontally and from the flanks, even while he is attacking us. We should, therefore, defend ourselves on a given front merely to induce the enemy to deploy his forces in an attack on this front. Then we in turn attack with those of our troops which we have kept back. The art of entrenchment, as Your Royal Highness expressed so excellently at one time, shall serve the defender not to defend himself more securely behind a rampart, but to attack the enemy more successfully. This idea should be applied to any passive defense. Such defense is nothing more than a means by which to attack the enemy most advantageously, in a terrain chosen in advance, where we have drawn up our troops and have arranged things to our advantage.

http://www.clausewit...ngs/Principles/

Edited by Barkem Squirrel, 17 December 2014 - 09:56 AM.


#15 Firemage

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 10:07 AM

This has only happened to me once thankfully, two things irked me most about it.
First the ability to Arty strike drop zones, i couldn't even move before i got nailed with a strike there needs to be some sort of protection to prevent an entire lance from being crippled in the first few seconds of a drop respawn.
Second they left the reactor at 1% hp just to farm me 2 extra times as i was the last mech standing on my pug team. That team of Smoke Jags was honorless or what in SC would be called BM.
Effective tactics aside, many of the factions we play have some sort of honor code, thous codes should be enforced if your flying under the banner of a given house or clan. Sure mercs like me only care about cbills but our employers expec us to not shame the flag we're fighting for.

#16 Smokeyjedi

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 01:03 PM

Clearly the clans would know no such thing as Honor. And yes 2 of my mechs were destroyed before i gained control of them..........IT was a huge pile of steaming Feces. Oh yes I will keep them out of my spawn zone when I explode before my start up sequence is finished..........So smug.

#17 xeromynd

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 01:14 PM

To alleviate the situation via small changes, not one giant nerf:

-Attacker Dropships should have more armament than Defender dropships. Maybe two more lasers, or more damage from its weapons.

-You should be able to pick the location (within a certain radius of the start point) where you want to drop.

-Some sort of patrolling air support would be cool. An aircraft that flies by every 45 seconds or so with some small armament.


All in all, spawn camping should not be disallowed entirely by a hard nerf, it should be made harder, and more difficult to do.

Edited by xeromynd, 17 December 2014 - 01:15 PM.


#18 Smokeyjedi

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 01:18 PM

View Postxeromynd, on 17 December 2014 - 01:14 PM, said:

To alleviate the situation via small changes, not one giant nerf:

-Attacker Dropships should have more armament than Defender dropships. Maybe two more lasers, or more damage from its weapons.

-You should be able to pick the location (within a certain radius of the start point) where you want to drop.

-Some sort of patrolling air support would be cool. An aircraft that flies by every 45 seconds or so with some small armament.


All in all, spawn camping should not be disallowed entirely by a hard nerf, it should be made harder, and more difficult to do.

All valid solid ideas.......This is the path to enlightenment.

#19 HARDKOR

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 01:24 PM

If I'm getting killed at spawn I just take it as a sign that I'm out of my league and should move on to the next opponent.

#20 TercieI

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 01:33 PM

If this is happening to you, you have lost, the match is over. The only issue is that there isn't a "concede" button that all surviving players on one side have to agree to press to end the match.





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