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Spawn Killing


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#21 Tim East

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 01:37 PM

This is basically the same as the Zerg Rush, but for defenders. If PGI wants slower games, they'll have to change the way things work a bit, I think. The extra defensive emplacements/better dropships thing would do to slow the game down, though is that really what we want? I'm not really sure.

It's a new thing. Give it a little time for them to work out some of the kinks.

#22 Tesunie

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 01:38 PM

The ability to attack a spawn point isn't a problem (and those who have said we attackers do that to those defending, you have turrets, the attackers have nothing to help prevent a spawn point rush at the moment), the problem is when it becomes a "defense strategy" to rush the spawn points of the attackers and kill them before they really even hit the ground (especially seen as my drop ships love dropping me down backwards... so I get heavily damaged before I can even turn around).

I've had matches (against clans if it matters, but I don't feel it does really), where the defenders were jumping over the unopened gates, killing attackers (what they should be doing), and then rushing over the still closed gates (maybe only one is open, or they even open them up themselves) and then charge the attackers spawn, keeping them from being able to even fight back as they respawn.

As an end game, kill the remaining few who may (or may not) be disconnected, ability I am fine with, but as a starting game issue, and when it prevents the game from being fun anymore, then it starts to move into the case of being a problem. Now, this isn't overly common to happen, but I've had it happen (I can recall one match were my team couldn't even "hit" the attackers, as the damage wasn't registering. We got rolled, and we killed 5 mechs to all of our deaths). It seems to happen often enough that something should probably be done about it. Maybe some attacker turrets? Something that looks like it was dropped down for assistance? Or maybe it could look like it was a turret system that was taken over by the attackers? Not sure.

I'd be leery on increasing the Dropships damage profile, seen as I've already been having problems with dropships shooting me when I'm not even out of the gate yet (on the arctic map), and their crazy accuracy (one dropship too my no damage Dragon down to yellow internal CT armor before)... I'd rather get some more stuff that can be destroyed instead to "discourage" this tactic. However, Turrets would not prevent the "end game" of killing any possible disconnects either, as it would just be "pop the turrets" and proceed.

#23 Gas Guzzler

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 01:46 PM

If you don't want spawn killers, don't get rolled to the point where the defenders can camp your spawn. Its not complicated.

Seriously, as has been said before, if the defenders are in your spawn you got outplayed and lost already. Its not a game mechanic problem, it isn't an exploit, you just got beat. Accept it and move on to the next match.

View PostTesunie, on 17 December 2014 - 01:38 PM, said:

The ability to attack a spawn point isn't a problem (and those who have said we attackers do that to those defending, you have turrets, the attackers have nothing to help prevent a spawn point rush at the moment), the problem is when it becomes a "defense strategy" to rush the spawn points of the attackers and kill them before they really even hit the ground (especially seen as my drop ships love dropping me down backwards... so I get heavily damaged before I can even turn around).

I've had matches (against clans if it matters, but I don't feel it does really), where the defenders were jumping over the unopened gates, killing attackers (what they should be doing), and then rushing over the still closed gates (maybe only one is open, or they even open them up themselves) and then charge the attackers spawn, keeping them from being able to even fight back as they respawn.

As an end game, kill the remaining few who may (or may not) be disconnected, ability I am fine with, but as a starting game issue, and when it prevents the game from being fun anymore, then it starts to move into the case of being a problem. Now, this isn't overly common to happen, but I've had it happen (I can recall one match were my team couldn't even "hit" the attackers, as the damage wasn't registering. We got rolled, and we killed 5 mechs to all of our deaths). It seems to happen often enough that something should probably be done about it. Maybe some attacker turrets? Something that looks like it was dropped down for assistance? Or maybe it could look like it was a turret system that was taken over by the attackers? Not sure.

I'd be leery on increasing the Dropships damage profile, seen as I've already been having problems with dropships shooting me when I'm not even out of the gate yet (on the arctic map), and their crazy accuracy (one dropship too my no damage Dragon down to yellow internal CT armor before)... I'd rather get some more stuff that can be destroyed instead to "discourage" this tactic. However, Turrets would not prevent the "end game" of killing any possible disconnects either, as it would just be "pop the turrets" and proceed.



Defenders rushing a spawn point at the beginning leaves the base dangerously unprotected and is a risky move. I would not do it.

#24 Tesunie

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 01:56 PM

View PostGas Guzzler, on 17 December 2014 - 01:46 PM, said:

Defenders rushing a spawn point at the beginning leaves the base dangerously unprotected and is a risky move. I would not do it.


But I've seen it happen. Everyone goes to the gates to defend it. When it's an almost completely premade (no issues from me there), they can plan a bit more dangerously sometimes. I also wish to add... clan weapons have some CRAZY ranges (which isn't a problem, just requires some tactics to over come). They can leave some players on the base, still shooting at defenders behind(ish) the gate, and still have jump snippers shooting over the gate.

In the match I was recalling, that is what happened. We broke one way open, only to find 6 mechs had jumped over the other gate and continued to kill us (great tactics). After our first wave, while we were waiting for people to respawn, they just marched up to our spawn together and killed people as they spawned (and finished the remaining people alive). Something was strange with hit reg though that match, as no one on my team could apparently hit anyone (I noticed continual hits that did no damage myself, and no I'm not saying every shot of mine hit either). We ended with all of my team dead, and the other team only had lost 5 mechs... And not all of it was "attackers were playing bad". Some of it was strategy. Some of it was bugs in CW. Some of it was, attackers don't have enough to defend their spawn (AKA: no turrets, only Dropships when someone dies and comes back in, and I've noticed that attacker's dropships don't seem to do as much shooting as the defender's dropships, anyone else notice this?).


Just to make a "to make you think" statement, lets reverse this situation. Have you seen an attacker force "spawn camp" a defender's camp successfully? Probably not for several reasons. One is that their target is the Omega. Another big reason is all the turrets that the defenders get.

(Now. To be clear, I'm not saying I want attacking to be easy, or even easier. Attacking should be hard. But some extra defenses on the attacker's spawn area would help bring a bit of balance in my opinion.)


Edit:
PS: I've only commonly seen as spawn camp from defenders happen in the arctic map. The Sulfur map I've seen it happen as well, but not nearly with any kind of frequency as compared to the Arctic one. It's a very rare sight to see a spawn camp on Sulfur.

Edited by Tesunie, 17 December 2014 - 01:58 PM.


#25 L Y N X

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 02:03 PM

The OP needs to better understand the Game mechanics of Invasion. Granted PGI could have explained it better, but the Attacking side is not about killing mechs in order to win, it is about killing 3 things, Gates, Turrets and the Cannon Gens.

As the Attacker, when attacking done right, killing mechs is just something that happens occasionally.

#26 Wintersdark

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 03:36 PM

View Postxeromynd, on 17 December 2014 - 01:14 PM, said:

To alleviate the situation via small changes, not one giant nerf:

-Attacker Dropships should have more armament than Defender dropships. Maybe two more lasers, or more damage from its weapons.

-You should be able to pick the location (within a certain radius of the start point) where you want to drop.

-Some sort of patrolling air support would be cool. An aircraft that flies by every 45 seconds or so with some small armament.


All in all, spawn camping should not be disallowed entirely by a hard nerf, it should be made harder, and more difficult to do.
I have no objection to this, though as I said I don't view it as a problem in the first place.

Perhaps a couple dropped (destroyable) AA turrets that protect drop points from air strikes and provide some spawn point defense for attackers as well.

#27 oldradagast

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 03:43 PM

View PostSmokeyjedi, on 17 December 2014 - 06:50 AM, said:

I see you have had run ins with Clan Jade Exploit.......3 drops of this crap and I let loose a string of hatred towards these min/maxers who also use exploits......Stay classy dirtbags..... spawn killed 2 of my 4 mechs because of course DC'd once per mech in most of these clan matches. DC'd 3 times that match and still did 800damage against those clowns.


Now, now - that's "skill" - or so the tryhards keep telling me.

CW has brought out the worst in the community, but at least it's obvious to all who the troublemakers are now.

#28 SixstringSamurai

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 04:17 PM

Just make the spawn point elevated with no way to return once you drop out of it. Now they can't stand on your spawn only advance up to a point where you can still defend it.

#29 Tesunie

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 04:49 PM

View PostSicarius Miyamoto Winters, on 17 December 2014 - 04:17 PM, said:

Just make the spawn point elevated with no way to return once you drop out of it. Now they can't stand on your spawn only advance up to a point where you can still defend it.


That is another decent solution. Jump mechs could still get up there... but it still isn't bad.

#30 Kalendra RA

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 04:59 PM

View PostSmokeyjedi, on 17 December 2014 - 01:03 PM, said:

Clearly the clans would know no such thing as Honor. And yes 2 of my mechs were destroyed before i gained control of them..........IT was a huge pile of steaming Feces. Oh yes I will keep them out of my spawn zone when I explode before my start up sequence is finished..........So smug.

Then you'd already lost the fight, and they just ended the match faster. Spawncamping is almost impossible to pull off, and can only happen when there is an extreme disparity in team skill. It's not a cheap tactic, it's the end result of an extremely one sided fight. IS pilots cry and cry about OP mechs and cheap tactics, when they're just being outplayed by comp players who can actually work together, who choose the gimped but more agile clan mechs over the ludicrously overbuffed IS mechs just because finesse and mobility is all that a good team needs to run circles around you.

#31 Tesunie

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 05:13 PM

View PostSirPseudonymous, on 17 December 2014 - 04:59 PM, said:

who choose the gimped but more agile clan mechs


For CW, I wouldn't be calling the clan mechs "gimped" at all. They have range. They often out snipe the IS forces. That extra range often makes a huge difference on defense on the Arctic map when facing an IS attack force. Not to mention, Clan mechs have more overall speed, more armor for said speed, with typically more firepower that can land on a stationary target (Omega). I find clan rushes are often more successful than an IS equivalent rush.

I'm not claiming that Clan mechs are Op though. Nor am I saying that IS mechs are Up either. Just that, each mech type has their own advantages and disadvantages in play.

#32 Wintersdark

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 06:18 PM

See patch notes.

Attacker dropships are going up to 12 ERLL's each, Defender dropships down to 7 ML's each. That's that, then.

Edited by Wintersdark, 18 December 2014 - 12:24 AM.


#33 SixstringSamurai

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 11:01 PM

View PostWintersdark, on 17 December 2014 - 06:18 PM, said:

See patch notes.

Attacker dropships are going up to 12 ERLL's each, Defender dropships down to 12 ML's each. That's that, then.


- Replaced attacker DropShip 7 medium lasers to ERLLs. Attacker dropships now have 12 ERLL's.
- Removed defense DropShip ERLLs. Defense dropships now have just 7 medium lasers.
- DropShips will only fire their weapons if they are in range to hit for maximum damage.

7 man....just 7.

#34 Nightshade24

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 11:50 PM

"Way to prevent this exploit?

Well the Dropships are flying by firing a dozen lasers (Mixed medium and large lasers) that at times 100% aim for the cockpit. (one time my direwolf was killed by a dropship 600 meters away because it alphed and didn't miss my cockpit, my mech was at 100% condition before that)


However I can think off ways to make dropships even more harder to be near. The leopard dropships (the ones that we see in CW, it's a lovely dropship I must say. fast, small, and packing firepower) also had more weapons. PPC's and LRM's.

The Leopard has...

7 x Medium Lasers
5 x Large lasers
2 x PPC
3 x LRM 20

It's missing the LRM's and PPC's. If they just dumb down the firing off the dropships so they are not CT / Head shooting monsters. This could be 'balanced', However I think the drop time of dropships should be longer then 30 seconds because I am sick at tired of finding 3 dropships swooping in carrying 1 mech each withen the same 20 seconds. Make it a bit longer then 30 seconds till respawn and make you drop in with another friendly. It's more logical and less abusive. (or unfortunate)

The clans also used these Leopard Dropships as well but if CW ever does 10 (2 clan stars) vs 12 (3 inner sphere lances) the Leopard dropship will be replaced with it's clan version the "Broadsword" which carries 5 mechs.

It's also 100 tons heavier (empty weight). the weapons are...
2 x Clan ER Large lasers
2 x Clan ER PPC's
8 x Clan Medium Pulse Lasers
2 x Clan Small pulse lasers
1 x Clan AMS
5 x Clan LRM 20's + Artemis
2 x Clan Streak SRM 2


This makes a larger distance between long range and sword range abilities.

It can poke at mechs at a further range but with less firepower while it having a shorter range back up. Would be a pain to be near but then again there is only 2 Broadswords cycling in and out while there are 3 leopards cycling in and out.



Besides giving the ship a full payload, I think another way to balance the attacker side is add Tanks, Hovercraft, Trucks, Carries, Aerospace fighters, and Helicopters. Things like the demolisher, bulldog, nightshade (hey that's my name!) Long tom artillery launchers, LRM carries, SRM carries, Peregrin, etc could be very neat, gives the attacker side a more equal playing field and possibly some deffense as some short range and long range craft stick near the drop zone to hold the area secure (kinda like how turrets keep the base secure), The reasoning behind this besides more balance is the short range vehicles are defending the (very) long range vehicles, (the long tom artillery).

All will be Ai ofc. Would give a more nostelgic depth and prevent 'spawn camping'. well a bit longer.

There is nothing preventing the late 3 minutes till end of game camping though because the whole team will charge in and kill you regardless and if you do not want to play anymore or going to go hide there will be no point, at least you get more money by getting shot at instead of hiding.

View PostSicarius Miyamoto Winters, on 17 December 2014 - 11:01 PM, said:


- Replaced attacker DropShip 7 medium lasers to ERLLs. Attacker dropships now have 12 ERLL's.
- Removed defense DropShip ERLLs. Defense dropships now have just 7 medium lasers.
- DropShips will only fire their weapons if they are in range to hit for maximum damage.

7 man....just 7.

Why not keep the weapons lore friendly and do what I said above this post? :)

Also PGi can't do that to the leopard dropship, if they upgrade all those medium lasers to ER large lasers then it'll ssacrificea lot, rather that be it can only drop 1-2 mechs or 4 light mechs. Or lack of heatsinks making it very hot. Or downgrading the engine which will make it slower and thus able to get shot down by the anti orbital Gauss rifle.

Edit:

Posted Image
Just posting the MW O concept art for this little Leopard dropship. You can see where the turrets are. Majority of the firepower is ontop of the ships hull while the rest are on the engine location and 'wing' tips.

Edited by Nightshade24, 17 December 2014 - 11:50 PM.


#35 Wintersdark

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Posted 18 December 2014 - 12:28 AM

View PostSicarius Miyamoto Winters, on 17 December 2014 - 11:01 PM, said:


- Replaced attacker DropShip 7 medium lasers to ERLLs. Attacker dropships now have 12 ERLL's.
- Removed defense DropShip ERLLs. Defense dropships now have just 7 medium lasers.
- DropShips will only fire their weapons if they are in range to hit for maximum damage.

7 man....just 7.
oops, defenders indeed have 7ML (I misread, thought it was swapping the 5 ERLL for 5 more ML). Still 12 ERLL's on the attacker dropships

Preventing early game spawn camping I'm all for, but late game? That's free and clear IMHO.

Edited by Wintersdark, 18 December 2014 - 12:27 AM.


#36 Nightshade24

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Posted 18 December 2014 - 06:03 AM

View PostWintersdark, on 18 December 2014 - 12:28 AM, said:

oops, defenders indeed have 7ML (I misread, thought it was swapping the 5 ERLL for 5 more ML). Still 12 ERLL's on the attacker dropships

Preventing early game spawn camping I'm all for, but late game? That's free and clear IMHO.

can you please post the stat sheet off this dropship you are talking about? :rolleyes:

#37 Wintersdark

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Posted 18 December 2014 - 06:14 AM

View PostNightshade24, on 18 December 2014 - 06:03 AM, said:

can you please post the stat sheet off this dropship you are talking about? :rolleyes:
MWO doesn't have stat sheets. These are MMO's variants of Leopard dropships. They all used to have 5 ERLL and 7 ML. As per the patch notes, defender dropships lost their 5 ERLL and the attacker dropships upgraded their 7 ML to ERLL's making 12 total.

#38 Modo44

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Posted 18 December 2014 - 06:30 AM

Attacking dropships are getting upgraded to all ERLLs, so that should help a bit. In addition, I would make a dropship or two of the first wave land to stay. After all, one would defend the staging area of an actual attack. Constant ERLL fire will deter anything but the most determined counter-attack.

#39 Saiphas Cain

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Posted 19 December 2014 - 09:43 AM

If dropships stayed it would only be fair to make them non-invulnerable. Then you'd just get people blasting the dropships. No dropships, no reinforcements. Enjoy the rest of the match.

#40 Burakumin1979

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Posted 19 December 2014 - 10:06 AM

Have to agree with Wintersdark. If you have allowed a defending force to push you back to where they are camping your spawn...then they deserve to "barrel of fish" you.





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