22 replies to this topic

[Felix7007]

Because of the complaints about rushing:

When you boil it all down, you realize attackers have no choice. Because of the map layout, you pick one of three hallways and you run.

No flanking possible.

If we were doing assault on ANY of the regular matchmaking maps, would you run strait at your opponent? No. you can but you have a choice to maybe sneak around behind them or get some side shots.

You wouldn't feel obligated to run strait at your enemy and the enemy wouldn't expect it either if it wasn't for the map design in CW.

Now you understand why its not a OP mech issue, a meta issue, a spawn issue or an issue with turret health or positioning because you can change all that and you are still forced to rush down a hallway.

[vettie]

The path of least resistance is not always a straight line....

[Felix7007]

Vettie, your rebuttal is actually proving my point. Yes, the path of least resistance is not always a strait line. But when you can only run in a strait line, I guess by default it kinda is the path of least resistance now isn't it?

[Strig]

The "zerg rush" is the path of least resistance (until PGI adjusts it with the patch) but it is NOT the only way ...

The single best CW match I played was a fairly well coordinated attack (we were all solos and tiny groups on both sides ... may be a factor) on the sulfur pit map.

We pushed slowly and steadily.
We did't take stupid risks .. only one light pilot went all Leroy Jenkins at the start ... after that I guess he learned his lesson.
We got ahead in kills by being careful and using our consumables intelligently.
We pushed inside the gate and used cover while sending a small flanking force to crack the other gates and draw some fire .. they would fade back and either rejoin the main force or hit the other gate ...
We kept our lead and slowly took out all the defenses on the side of the main force.
They got desperate and pushed on the main force .. our flankers hit them in the back .. and they panicked, scattering to get cover.
We took out the generator as they dropped in their last wave of reinforcements ..

This is how a CW match should go ... IMO ... long and intense .. the better strategy and execution of tactics with the least mistakes should result in a win.

NOTE: People will tell you that the attackers are stupid to stay outside the gates ... this is only true if you have an advantage and don't push in. Pushing in without the advantage is dramatically less effective .. usually resulting in the unnecessary loss of some, if not all of a company.

Edited by Strig, 18 December 2014 - 11:08 AM.

[Airox]

Please make distinctions between rushing and zerg rushing. Rushing is a normal valid (and in CW effective) strategy. Zerg rushing is 12 lights going 150+kph jumping over gates and ignoring everything but the omega generator including turrets.

[RAM]

Not by strength, but by guile!


RAM
ELH

[Felix7007]

OK guys not that hard of a concept to get. You have two choices. Run down the chokepoint fast or slow. You can either go forward or backward in a strait line.

Because most people want to run fast in a strait line, I constitute it as a rush. If you go slow, well, your just stupid.

So again, its not a distinction between rush or zerg, its choice. I have no choice but to run in a strait line at the enemy because of the map layout. Do you guys know what a hallway looks like? Do you guys know what the chokepoints look like on the map? Can you see that they are essentially the same? Can you then understand that your are forced to either go forward or backward and not side to side?

Edited by Felix7007, 18 December 2014 - 12:26 PM.

[Desolator]

So what is your point?

[Felix7007]

Strig,

I'm glad you were able to make your attack work going slowly through the chokepoints but there were only two other options. Go faster or go backwards. Backwards was probably not an option and faster is a rush.

Wouldn't it have been nice to maybe... idk.... move to the side of your opponent? AKA flank.

Desolator,

My point is simple. New maps. Maps where you can flank.

I mean you can try to fix the ones now but you would have to get rid of the mountains and stuff essentially making it unrecognizable. So basically scrap them.

Edited by Felix7007, 18 December 2014 - 12:35 PM.

[Davers]

One could argue they would not build a base where it was open to attack on every front.

I would rather leave this game mode as it is, and create other game modes that would promote mobility over brute strength.

[ShadowWolf Kell]

Davers, on 18 December 2014 - 12:59 PM, said:

One could argue they would not build a base where it was open to attack on every front.

I would rather leave this game mode as it is, and create other game modes that would promote mobility over brute strength.

A Castles Brian would be difficult for a coordinated 12 man to crack and pretty much beyond the capacity of a PUG given the massive amount of AMS coverage they have.

[Felix7007]

That's a good point. I would also be open to having multiple game modes like you describe and have these maps exclusively for invasion game mode but make more open maps for deathmatch type modes.

[DaManiac]

Strig, on 18 December 2014 - 11:04 AM, said:

The "zerg rush" is the path of least resistance (until PGI adjusts it with the patch) but it is NOT the only way ...

The single best CW match I played was a fairly well coordinated attack (we were all solos and tiny groups on both sides ... may be a factor) on the sulfur pit map.

We pushed slowly and steadily.
We did't take stupid risks .. only one light pilot went all Leroy Jenkins at the start ... after that I guess he learned his lesson.
We got ahead in kills by being careful and using our consumables intelligently.
We pushed inside the gate and used cover while sending a small flanking force to crack the other gates and draw some fire .. they would fade back and either rejoin the main force or hit the other gate ...
We kept our lead and slowly took out all the defenses on the side of the main force.
They got desperate and pushed on the main force .. our flankers hit them in the back .. and they panicked, scattering to get cover.
We took out the generator as they dropped in their last wave of reinforcements ..

This is how a CW match should go ... IMO ... long and intense .. the better strategy and execution of tactics with the least mistakes should result in a win.

NOTE: People will tell you that the attackers are stupid to stay outside the gates ... this is only true if you have an advantage and don't push in. Pushing in without the advantage is dramatically less effective .. usually resulting in the unnecessary loss of some, if not all of a company.

This is a one off, you were obviously playing against an unco-ordinated enemy. For the most of the time, It's a co-ordinated one. Stop quoting stuff that doesn't apply to the common man in a common situation,

[Mystere]

Felix7007, on 18 December 2014 - 12:24 PM, said:

OK guys not that hard of a concept to get. You have two choices. Run down the chokepoint fast or slow. You can either go forward or backward in a strait line.

Because most people want to run fast in a strait line, I constitute it as a rush. If you go slow, well, your just stupid.

So again, its not a distinction between rush or zerg, its choice. I have no choice but to run in a strait line at the enemy because of the map layout. Do you guys know what a hallway looks like? Do you guys know what the chokepoints look like on the map? Can you see that they are essentially the same? Can you then understand that your are forced to either go forward or backward and not side to side?

There is a third choice: obliterate the enemy and their fixed defenses with brutal precision, before marching on to the generators for the win. That was how my first ever CW attack was won. <maniacal >

[Tezcatli]

What if we had like tunnels? A small maze of tunnels with multiple exits. That's the only thing I can think of to reduce the funneling of forces. But then people would just stand in front of those waiting for enemies.

[Blakkstar]

A zerg rush is a suicide attack using fast mechs and essentially ignoring the defender to go straight for the objective and destroy it.

A push is a coordinated attack down a corridor.

Zerg rushes are considered broken if there is no practical way for the defender to stop them based on simple time and DPS mechanics. Think Starcraft...the other races need early game balance to be able to defend against the zerg rush.

Pushes are basic team organization strategy and the foundation for nearly every team-based MMO from World of Tanks to Starcraft to League of Legends.

The patch tweaks that just came down are designed to tone down zerg rushing and reward coordinated team play.

[Sandpit]

Blakkstar, on 19 December 2014 - 11:05 AM, said:

Zerg rushes are considered broken .

by who?
not PGI

[oldradagast]

Felix7007, on 18 December 2014 - 09:39 AM, said:

Because of the complaints about rushing:

When you boil it all down, you realize attackers have no choice. Because of the map layout, you pick one of three hallways and you run.

No flanking possible.

If we were doing assault on ANY of the regular matchmaking maps, would you run strait at your opponent? No. you can but you have a choice to maybe sneak around behind them or get some side shots.

You wouldn't feel obligated to run strait at your enemy and the enemy wouldn't expect it either if it wasn't for the map design in CW.

Now you understand why its not a OP mech issue, a meta issue, a spawn issue or an issue with turret health or positioning because you can change all that and you are still forced to rush down a hallway.

I agree overall, though I think the bigger root of the problem is not that rushing is "broken" but that CW games really should involve more depth. When some folks say, "end the rush" that's what they are grumbling about, not the attackers have any hope of winning.

You are right in saying attackers have no real choices, but that's a flaw in map and objective design, even if the rush may seem "broken" to some players or just plain repetitive and boring to the rest of us who are underwhelmed by it.

This gets to the root of my gripe with CW: it has less depth than a Skirmish match at this point. At least in a Skirmish match, for all it's simplicity, there's still a *chance* the enemy might not be where they normally are, and a *chance* they may do something really creative and make the game unique. The current CW setup really doesn't favor this because of the static nature of the objectives, the obvious and predictable pathing in the maps (it makes the PUG-zapper in Terra Therma look creative in comparison), and almost total lack of need for scouting or assault mechs.

Edited by oldradagast, 19 December 2014 - 01:00 PM.

[pwnface]

oldradagast, on 19 December 2014 - 01:00 PM, said:

"almost total lack of need for scouting or assault mechs."

Really?? Scouting is pretty important for stopping enemy rushes and assaults are pretty handy to have if you are going to push the base.

Are you primarily a solo player? I'm not making a dig at you, but your comments make you sound like you haven't played with a coordinated team before. In my experience, scouting and having tanky assault mechs are both pretty important in CW.

[Deathlike]

pwnface, on 19 December 2014 - 01:05 PM, said:

Really?? Scouting is pretty important for stopping enemy rushes and assaults are pretty handy to have if you are going to push the base.

Are you primarily a solo player? I'm not making a dig at you, but your comments make you sound like you haven't played with a coordinated team before. In my experience, scouting and having tanky assault mechs are both pretty important in CW.

Scouting is Lostech. You know better than to spew that drivel.