51 replies to this topic

[salkeee]

Id say that defenders have uperhand mostly.
Thou when atacking speed is important when defending dmg and range is important both traits mostly goes to clan mechs but who cares we are balanced for normal games.

EDIT: Yes CW atacking side is all about rush.

Edited by salkeee, 19 December 2014 - 02:02 PM.

[Deathlike]

Louis Brofist, on 19 December 2014 - 01:54 PM, said:

[Redacted]

Well, I don't want to be accused of not putting money into the game.

Quote

[Redacted]

So, attack the person and not the arguments...

Good to know.

Edited by John Wolf, 21 December 2014 - 07:14 PM.
Moderated Quotes

[DEMAX51]

Louis Brofist, on 19 December 2014 - 01:49 PM, said:

On offense you can since time is not an object. Simply tell people to re-group at a coordinate, wait for everyone to come, rush in. Rinse repeat, win.

On defense you can't do that. There's no time once the offense starts steamrolling in. They take damage, you can kill 9 out of 12 and the 3 will still take the objectives, so long as they touch the freaking generators they go down.



Again this is not about group work its about a fundamental flaw in game design.

Your blanket statement of "defenses are impossible" is wrong. I know this, because I haven't lost a defense yet since the patch. Many teams tried a straight-up rush, some using a large amount of Lights, and others a mix of 'Mechs. We held each and every one of them off.

The only "fundamental flaw" you seem to be preoccupied with, is that PUGging is hard. And that's not a flaw. That is as it should be.

Edited by DEMAX51, 19 December 2014 - 02:00 PM.

[AlphaToaster]

Louis Brofist, on 19 December 2014 - 01:49 PM, said:

On defense you can't do that. There's no time once the offense starts steamrolling in. They take damage, you can kill 9 out of 12 and the 3 will still take the objectives, so long as they touch the freaking generators they go down.

So in this example 12 mechs suddenly appeared at a gate, and the defenders had "no time" to react? There was "nothing that could be done"? It was GG as soon as those 12 mechs stood in the same grid and started walking into the gate together.....

K.

I can tell you didn't read my post earlier cause I was talking about scouting and... oh whatever, nevermind.

[RockmachinE]

AlphaToaster, on 19 December 2014 - 02:00 PM, said:

I can tell you didn't read my post earlier cause I was talking about scouting and... oh whatever, nevermind.

I did. Again this is completely irrelevant. If you only drop groups you would not have experienced this side of the game anyways.

[pwnface]

Louis Brofist, on 19 December 2014 - 02:05 PM, said:

[Redacted]

The fact that you are complaining about defending being too hard tells us exactly what we need to know about your skill level. Defending is EASIER than attacking. The game is stacked against attackers.[Redacted]

Edited by John Wolf, 21 December 2014 - 07:16 PM.
Unconstructive

[RockmachinE]

pwnface, on 19 December 2014 - 02:05 PM, said:

[Redacted]

Yes I am. I am not losing every single defense, I am losing every single organized rush.

pwnface, on 19 December 2014 - 02:07 PM, said:

The fact that you are complaining about defending being too hard tells us exactly what we need to know about your skill level. Defending is EASIER than attacking. The game is stacked against attackers. [Redacted]

I never said defending was hard. You are putting words in my mouth here. I said its impossible to defend against and organized rush. Defending is easy if the attacking team is not organized.

Also I mentioned I keep winning attacks. So by your own logic, if those are harder, I would be a more skilled player.

Edited by John Wolf, 21 December 2014 - 07:16 PM.
Moderated Quotes

[Deathlike]

Louis Brofist, on 19 December 2014 - 02:05 PM, said:

[Redacted]

I don't actually write those threads. In fact, I let someone else "start" the thread because it is inevitable those are written.

It's not arrogance. I write what I know, and not just say random stuff for the fun of it (well, except for the non-serious threads or responses).

Quote

[Redacted]

I think there's always a bunch of PUGs that want to learn. The question has always been, will they take orders? Often times, telling them the basic idea on what they need to do accomplishes this. It's not complicated... it simply takes practice.

I can't help players that don't want to take orders. They die and let them rant on their own. It's not my problem if they won't listen.

Quote

[Redacted]

I'm not that good. I'm pretty average (below or above, whichever makes you feel better). I like listening to other people smarter than me direct things so I can be a better player. What's hard to understand about that?

Edited by John Wolf, 21 December 2014 - 07:18 PM.
Moderated quotes

[bobF]

Defending works fine, even better now, since PGI created narrow attack lanes to each gen. Forming a firing line at the gate still works, using streaks on lights still works, every basic PvP keep siege tactic still works as it has since the very first zerg pounded upon the very first door.

The game mode is actually pretty balanced now, if a little stale and unimaginative. Your problem is lack of skill, and the #puglife mentality of the teams you get queued with that are defending.

[oldradagast]

pwnface, on 19 December 2014 - 02:07 PM, said:

The fact that you are complaining about defending being too hard tells us exactly what we need to know about your skill level. Defending is EASIER than attacking. The game is stacked against attackers. So please, "Learn 2 Play".

Only partly true.

While defending IS easier than attacking, if he is dropping almost entirely in horribly uncoordinated "teams" - basically PUG's - on defense vs. highly coordinated attackers, his experience may be that defense appears very difficult.

The deeper problem, IMHO, is that far too many matches are basically decided when you look at the screen that displays the two teams. If you're a randomized PUG attacker, you're in deep trouble... and if you're against a coordinated defense, you may as well "ggclose" and quit the match before wasting 30 minutes of time. Defenders have it easier, sure, but even then... the one game on defense I lost, I'm pretty sure the rest of the "team" couldn't have defended the base if the enemy had consisted of nothing but legged Locusts.

Team work is not overpowered, but one's level of coordination is basically predetermining CW match outcomes. Combine that with the often staggering gulf in capabilities (teamwork, coms, etc.) between opponents in these matches, and it is no wonder folks are upset, posting angry things on the forum, or otherwise not happy. That gulf in capabilities - and the disproportion effect it has on CW matches because of their predictability - is the problem, not the base rush itself, IMHO.

[Roadbeer]

Something, something, I can't figure out how to work as a team, something, something.

This is serious business and it needs a poll.

[Deathlike]

oldradagast, on 19 December 2014 - 02:22 PM, said:

Only partly true.

While defending IS easier than attacking, if he is dropping almost entirely in horribly uncoordinated "teams" - basically PUG's - on defense vs. highly coordinated attackers, his experience may be that defense appears very difficult.

The deeper problem, IMHO, is that far too many matches are basically decided when you look at the screen that displays the two teams. If you're a randomized PUG attacker, you're in deep trouble... and if you're against a coordinated defense, you may as well "ggclose" and quit the match before wasting 30 minutes of time. Defenders have it easier, sure, but even then... the one game on defense I lost, I'm pretty sure the rest of the "team" couldn't have defended the base if the enemy had consisted of nothing but legged Locusts.

Team work is not overpowered, but one's level of coordination is basically predetermining CW match outcomes. Combine that with the often staggering gulf in capabilities (teamwork, coms, etc.) between opponents in these matches, and it is no wonder folks are upset, posting angry things on the forum, or otherwise not happy. That gulf in capabilities - and the disproportion effect it has on CW matches because of their predictability - is the problem, not the base rush itself, IMHO.

I will somewhat agree to this, but understand that players have to learn how to be a good teammate... even while the rest of the team could be terrible is still something worth learning. This allows a players to function as part of a bigger premade w/o actually being a part of that unit.

The problem though is that it would probably take a lot more time to learn... because the basic stuff is generally covered when joining a group in the first place. There are good solo PUGs out there, but they are far and few inbetween.

Edited by Deathlike, 19 December 2014 - 02:31 PM.

[oldradagast]

Deathlike, on 19 December 2014 - 02:30 PM, said:

I will somewhat agree to this, but understand that players have to learn how to be a good teammate... even while the rest of the team could be terrible is still something worth learning. This allows a players to function as part of a bigger premade w/o actually being a part of that unit.

The problem though is that it would probably take a lot more time to learn... because the basic stuff is generally covered when joining a group in the first place. There are good solo PUGs out there, but they are far and few inbetween.

I strongly agree with that, particularly the fact that EVERYONE must learn to be a good team-mate... because as soon as you drop - even in solo queue - you're part of a team.

Some people can't be helped - we've all run across them - but I've run into so many who know so little and are so grateful for any help they receive that it's just frustrating since it clearly shows how the game badly needs a better onboarding process... I'm not even sure how many new players know the forums exist, and the same is true of Smurphy, etc.

[ShadowFighter88]

Xyroc, on 19 December 2014 - 01:12 PM, said:

I see the defending team fail every time when some idiot says " we have to go out and face them " ....

Keep you ass in the base close to & defending the primary objective as soon as those gates open up. Especially if you are a brawler.

I've actually had the opposite experience - every counter-attack game I've had against the Clans has gone more-or-less the same way:

• IS attack and open a gate
  
• Clan hold gate for a couple of minutes
  
• After a few IS 'mechs die, the Clanners charge out and push all the way to the IS drop site.

I lost my last 'mech, a Hunchback, in seconds because there was nearly a whole Star worth of Clanners standing around under the dropship I came in on.


My initial instinct to stop this was suggest beefing up the weapons on the dropships, but then I realised that that would make it harder for the attackers as well once they got into the base (it would feel weird for the attacker's to have more powerful and heavily-armed dropships than the defenders, IMO at least).

EDIT:

oldradagast, on 19 December 2014 - 02:35 PM, said:

I strongly agree with that, particularly the fact that EVERYONE must learn to be a good team-mate... because as soon as you drop - even in solo queue - you're part of a team.

Some people can't be helped - we've all run across them - but I've run into so many who know so little and are so grateful for any help they receive that it's just frustrating since it clearly shows how the game badly needs a better onboarding process... I'm not even sure how many new players know the forums exist, and the same is true of Smurphy, etc.

Of course; a lot of this could be avoided if we had actual, built-in VoIP like people have been asking for since closed beta!

Edited by ShadowFighter88, 19 December 2014 - 02:51 PM.

[Deathlike]

oldradagast, on 19 December 2014 - 02:35 PM, said:

I strongly agree with that, particularly the fact that EVERYONE must learn to be a good team-mate... because as soon as you drop - even in solo queue - you're part of a team.

Some people can't be helped - we've all run across them - but I've run into so many who know so little and are so grateful for any help they receive that it's just frustrating since it clearly shows how the game badly needs a better onboarding process... I'm not even sure how many new players know the forums exist, and the same is true of Smurphy, etc.

I've been saying that the NPE needs improvements... especially with the tutorials. I don't expect tutorials to cover everything (it's difficult enough trying to explain "NASCAR" to people despite everyone doing it for no particular reason or just copying what they've seen), but trying to get players in the mindset of working together is difficult.

Trying to get them not worrying about 12-mans (or big premades) is a difficult hill to climb for some, but they have to keep playing against them and learn what it takes to win... even if it takes a number of losses. Learning WHY you lost is instrumental in getting better and correcting this in the future is the bigger goal. It's better that way than blaming the opfor for doing well. It's all about a mindset and some people aren't willing to budge from that perch.

[AlphaToaster]

Solo is harder than group because you have to read your teammates without VOIP and that requires situational awareness as well as a basic understand of how the battles unfold. You have to pay attention to chat, which in itself is annoying, but not impossible.

In most cases the hardest part about solo'ing is putting away my own ego and attempting to follow orders when someone takes the initiative to command. I do my best to help give that person information as well as reaffirm their commands when they make good strategic/tactical sense.

At the same time if there's a mistake, it's good to step up, but not without being willing to take command myself. That's why it's hard because calling out a bad plan means I have to put up a valid reason/alternative, or shut up myself and try to help the team and make the best of the plan we have.

I haven't dropped in a group once during CW, not once. I have exclusively been dealing with pug style solo gameplay for the last few weeks and ego is the only thing a pug has to overcome in the queue to have a chance to win against a 12man. Someone is going to have a plan, or take a chance yourself and suggest something you know works. All ego related stuff really relating to confidence.

Edited by AlphaToaster, 19 December 2014 - 02:59 PM.

[NextGame]

Louis Brofist, on 19 December 2014 - 01:05 PM, said:

My title says it all. Every time I play defense I lose to an organized attack without fail. I've personally organized a few IS rushes today where the team consisted entirely of PUGs, we won every single time.

If 10-12 mechs can organize and rush at the same time they breach the defense. The new generators do nothing. Its more or less the same, there's just not enough time to kill the attack no matter what.

In my experience its no different then before. All day today was the same. Organized attacks win bar none. The only time I defend successfully or lose on attack is if the offense messes around at the gate or gets caught up with the defense.

If attackers ignore defenders and just go for objectives they win every single time.

On defense, you can sit back and take it, or you can make them play your game. It can be a lot tougher to defend if you do it in the traditional manner. But it wont work too well if you abandon your base area either and don't take advantage of opportunities like legging mechs that are not close to the objectives and finishing them off once more immediate threats are dealt with.

You really need to think about what you are playing against, work out what the enemy are going to do, and make the right decisions.

Edited by NextGame, 19 December 2014 - 04:19 PM.

[Dahnyol]

poor map design lends itself to be exploited

[Sandpit]

Deathlike, on 19 December 2014 - 01:09 PM, said:

All I can say is "Learn to Focus Fire".

These are things veterans have been telling the newbies forever and if they never follow that simple principle... they will never really progress.

Of course, if people want to keep "doing their own thing", well, expect more losses.

Xyroc, on 19 December 2014 - 01:12 PM, said:

I see the defending team fail every time when some idiot says " we have to go out and face them " ....

Keep you ass in the base close to & defending the primary objective as soon as those gates open up. Especially if you are a brawler.

Sadist Cain, on 19 December 2014 - 01:13 PM, said:

We managed to hold butler from Ghost Bear.

Sat a lance on each generator and then collapsed onto whatever gate had the big push turn up.

Seems to work well, 3 lances, 3 generators and enough time to support your comrades if need be.

F0xdi3, on 19 December 2014 - 01:17 PM, said:

How many waves does it take, if its more than, the changes are successfull.

And I havent seen anyone do it in 1 wave yet...so...

oldradagast, on 19 December 2014 - 01:22 PM, said:

Hmmm... I can't say I agree with that.

I've won every single defending game in CW with one exception, and that was on a splintered "team" consisting of PUG's, maybe a few 2 to 3 mans, etc. against a coordinated 12-man. That "team" also seemed allergic to any use of communications at all, which basically is an auto-loss no matter how many good mechs or players you may have.

On the flip side, under equally uncoordinated circumstances on defense, I've been there to beat coordinated enemy teams.

While I can agree with the statement that the rush is repetitive and not really much fun, nor really in the spirit of the greater tactical and strategic game we hoped to have in CW, I cannot support the notion that it can't be beaten.

After playing on the attacking side recently in a few games - admittedly, also ones as part of very small groups on mostly uncoordinated teams - I'm surprised the attackers ever win given how the odds are stacked.

Darth Futuza, on 19 December 2014 - 01:23 PM, said:

Couple of suggestions:

-Stay inside, don't go out of your gates (unless your a scout).
-Carry long range weapons
-Stay close to your objective (defending the cannon), if you get too far away from it you can't stop a rush
-Focus on legging targets, killing them should not be a priority. Slowing/stopping them down is.
-Bring mediums - they are best at taking out speedy light rushes.
-Use arty strikes with wisdom.
-Use your dropships to rain down fire upon the enemy. Suiciding can summon a dropship when the need is desperate enough.

Deathlike, on 19 December 2014 - 01:25 PM, said:

Legging is not Lostech... except for wounded prides.

AlphaToaster, on 19 December 2014 - 01:37 PM, said:

So you're not interested in learning from people who don't have this problem? K.

pwnface, on 19 December 2014 - 01:37 PM, said:

Actually, were assuming you are a noob because of your hilarious thread. It seems like you DO need advice because other groups ARE successfully defending against all kinds of tactics. The problem isn't an imbalance in game mode or maps, it is a lack of communication between pug players.

DEMAX51, on 19 December 2014 - 01:44 PM, said:

The pattern is, indeed, obvious. When your team acts like a team, you win, when they don't you lose. Teamwork is OP. You want more coordination, more regularly, on your team? Find a group to play with.

Louis Brofist, on 19 December 2014 - 01:31 PM, said:

I don't need advice in this thread. I'm pointing out an imbalance in the maps and game modes.

no offense, but since all those people apparently CAN defend against the rush, you DO need the advice

[Shalune]

Louis Brofist, on 19 December 2014 - 01:31 PM, said:

I don't need advice in this thread. I'm pointing out an imbalance in the maps and game modes.

CW likely will and should always favor the attacker. If, all other things being equal, defenders have the advantage then the system map will rapidly stagnate. With attackers having the advantage things stay dynamic. And thanks to the counter-attack system it's only the map's defenders that are at a disadvantage, not the planet's.

AlphaToaster, on 19 December 2014 - 01:28 PM, said:

If anyone expected PGI to stop rushing from working with these latest changes, I feel bad for them, but only a little bit.

The 3 generators actually make it easier for the attackers to win. All it did was add more time to brawl so instead of a 3min blow out, it's 5min and give the defenders 4 objectives to watch instead of 1. I hope that is enough combat on a stomp to appease those who cannot figure out the defense.

Got to love that high TTK we have now because of all the crying for weapon nerfs. Oh such irony.

Defenders cannot just sit on one gate. Defenders must coordinate people watching all the gates all the time. Defenders must scout. Defenders have to be in the proper mechs for their role in defense. PGI's patch didn't remove any of these requirements for a successful defense with this patch.