20517 replies to this topic

[Virlutris]

SuperFunkTron, on 17 May 2017 - 09:12 AM, said:

I remember just this past winter when everyone was crying about the high mounts on the Kodiaks and linebackers being power creep and now it is considered a bad thing? Did I miss something?

The KDK' s mounts are right about cockpit level. If you can see it, you can shoot it.

Uziel's got a mid-torso (possibly lower?) cockpit. The enemy sees your hump and shoulders before you can see them. it's nearly (but not exactly) the same as having lower-than-cockpit mounts on other mechs due to the amount of exposure before you can shoot on the initial peek.

This isn't the KDK, so much as it's the Ebon, Stormcrow, Cicada, and Archer, with all the disadvantages of their lines of sight and none of the advantages of ClanTech, speed or free podspace/tonnage.

I like it on paper the way I like the Cicada. Seems awkward in MWO. :t


Edit: autocorrect derp

Edited by Virlutris, 17 May 2017 - 09:21 AM.

[Metus regem]

Virlutris, on 17 May 2017 - 09:20 AM, said:

The KDK' s mounts are right about cockpit level. If you can see it, you can shoot it.

Uziel's got a mid-torso (possibly lower?) cockpit. The enemy sees your hump and shoulders before you can see them. it's nearly (but not exactly) the same as having lower-than-cockpit mounts on other mechs due to the amount of exposure before you can shoot on the initial peek.

This isn't the KDK, so much as it's the Ebon, Stormcrow, Cicada, and Archer, with all the disadvantages of their lines of sight and none of the advantages of ClanTech, speed or free podspace/tonnage.

I like it on paper the way I like the Cicada. Seems awkward in MWO. :t


Edit: autocorrect derp

On the flip side, the Annihilator has an extremely high cockpit, but very low weapon mounts, meaning by the time you clear the hill (thanks to having a max engine size of 300, so Dire Wolf speed at best) you will have taken a lot of fire before you can return fire. This could lead to you being cored out before clearing a hill to shoot back.

On the Clan side, they get the Mad Cat Mk. II, most weapon mounts are slightly below cockpit level, meaning that it will not take that long to be able to spot and shoot your target.

[SuperFunkTron]

Metus regem, on 17 May 2017 - 09:16 AM, said:

...
IS:
Got two capitalistic mechs that had no real presence during the time period. These units will have hit box issues as well as low slung cockpits or low slung hard points... There were better options available to PGI, as well as arguably more popular options, rather than the ones that we got.

Virlutris, on 17 May 2017 - 09:20 AM, said:

Uziel's got a mid-torso (possibly lower?) cockpit. The enemy sees your hump and shoulders before you can see them. it's nearly (but not exactly) the same as having lower-than-cockpit mounts on other mechs due to the amount of exposure before you can shoot on the initial peek.

That definitely sheds some light, thanks for the insight guys.


Issues like this really only reinforce my belief that it's time for PGI to add another layer beyond the mechs and start doing a few things for the player base:
1. Label mech difficulty- There are enthusiasts of all mechs, those wily few that prove that even a mech generally considered to be a poor performer, that show us how a particular mech can really shine. A "difficulty to pilot" type of label would got a long way with helping people pick "beginner" mechs earlier on and avoid putting money into mechs that are challenging even for intermediate players.

2. Define and lable mech roles: Just inputting info about the traditional BT roles (skirmisher, harasser, missle boat, cavalry, juggernaut) would pull those roles out from the abstract and make them more tangible to players trying to figure out what role they are trying to fulfill and how to approach that role.

3. Labeling mechs as being particular to specific factions: If Faction history, typical mech rosters, and some info about preferred load outs and combat styles were provided either for each mech or under a "Faction info" tab, it would go very long way to helping players reduce the steepness of the learning curve by simply giving them a direction to start playing in. Thinking back to when I started, I really would've appreciated some sort of system that informed of play styles particular to faction so I could have found more like minded players sooner. Instead, I recall being overwhelmed by the vastly different approaches and the wide variety of suggestions and advice I received in the beginning.


I know these are things that don't overtly affect gameplay, but I believe that they'd improve the user experience as a whole for the vast majority of players. We need to start pushing for them to enrich the game with BT info and start encouraging us to play to the Faction characteristics and politics, not just indulge in generic stompy robots.

[FLG 01]

Metus regem, on 17 May 2017 - 09:26 AM, said:

On the flip side, the Annihilator has an extremely high cockpit, but very low weapon mounts, meaning by the time you clear the hill (thanks to having a max engine size of 300, so Dire Wolf speed at best) you will have taken a lot of fire before you can return fire. This could lead to you being cored out before clearing a hill to shoot back.

I am afraid Annihilator fans often underestimate just how big of a disadvantage that is. I am a huge fan of the Black Knight and its combination of low hardpoints and high cockpit is a critical weakness. However Black Knights are capable of relatively high speed (some 80 kph).
Besides the hardpoint height, there is also be the issue of convergence. Having raised the arms of the Annihilator (so that it is not a total knuckle dragger) means the arms are very spread out.

I don't think the Mech will be abysmal; fortunately for its fan, PGI was extremely generous with the engine cap. And the hardpoints themselves are good. The placement of the hardpoints however...

Think about it: it says a lot about the IS/Clan-balance that a bad design like the Annihilator won't even be the worst, while a very good design like the Mad Cat MKII is in equal or better company...

SuperFunkTron, on 17 May 2017 - 09:46 AM, said:

3. Labeling mechs as being particular to specific factions: If Faction history, typical mech rosters, and some info about preferred load outs and combat styles were provided either for each mech or under a "Faction info" tab, it would go very long way to helping players reduce the steepness of the learning curve by simply giving them a direction to start playing in.

I am all for it, because the Clans would get the Annihilator then, not the IS. (For those who wonder: the only FCCW-era RAT entry of the Annihilator is for the second line formations of Clan Star Adder).

In all seriousness, I would definitely encourage more faction specific use of Mechs, at least in FP.

Also in the marketing and sale of Mech: the Uziel's only noteworthy action during the FCCW was help defending Hesperus II. It's preorder bonus should be the Steiner-faction camo (Lyran Guards) and the Hero's or Collector's paint job should be that of the Defiance Self-Protection Force. I might have even bought it in that case, but there is no lore for us, and the MW:4-lemmings buy it anyway.

[SuperFunkTron]

FLG 01, on 17 May 2017 - 11:27 AM, said:

In all seriousness, I would definitely encourage more faction specific use of Mechs, at least in FP.

Also in the marketing and sale of Mech: the Uziel's only noteworthy action during the FCCW was help defending Hesperus II. It's preorder bonus should be the Steiner-faction camo (Lyran Guards) and the Hero's or Collector's paint job should be that of the Defiance Self-Protection Force. I might have even bought it in that case, but there is no lore for us, and the MW:4-lemmings buy it anyway.

I think its high time that people start getting more vocal about the need for Faction Specific Mechs and integration of at least basic amounts of lore into this game. We just have to encourage more people to voice it as a priority now that thew new upgrade tree is done and that they are about to do the Civil War update. The lore related events and time lines are a nice idea, but they are just hollow shells of what they should be giving us in terms of faction fidelity to lore.

If you guys see any more of those "next FP round table" type threads, or even start creating some of your own, we really need to start advocating that it becomes a top priority.

[Metus regem]

FLG 01, on 17 May 2017 - 11:27 AM, said:

I am afraid Annihilator fans often underestimate just how big of a disadvantage that is. I am a huge fan of the Black Knight and its combination of low hardpoints and high cockpit is a critical weakness. However Black Knights are capable of relatively high speed (some 80 kph).
Besides the hardpoint height, there is also be the issue of convergence. Having raised the arms of the Annihilator (so that it is not a total knuckle dragger) means the arms are very spread out.

I don't think the Mech will be abysmal; fortunately for its fan, PGI was extremely generous with the engine cap. And the hardpoints themselves are good. The placement of the hardpoints however...

Think about it: it says a lot about the IS/Clan-balance that a bad design like the Annihilator won't even be the worst, while a very good design like the Mad Cat MKII is in equal or better company...

I don't think the Anni will be a total trash, I just have a very low expectation of it's capabilities... granted it can do quad medium sized ballistics (AC/10's), it's not going to do Gauss+PPC like the Kodiak 3 can.

What I see when I see that the Anni got picked for the IS is either a critical lack of understanding of game play by PGI or a critical lack of choices for the IS in this time period by PGI.

FLG 01, on 17 May 2017 - 11:27 AM, said:

I am all for it, because the Clans would get the Annihilator then, not the IS. (For those who wonder: the only FCCW-era RAT entry of the Annihilator is for the second line formations of Clan Star Adder).

In all seriousness, I would definitely encourage more faction specific use of Mechs, at least in FP.

Also in the marketing and sale of Mech: the Uziel's only noteworthy action during the FCCW was help defending Hesperus II. It's preorder bonus should be the Steiner-faction camo (Lyran Guards) and the Hero's or Collector's paint job should be that of the Defiance Self-Protection Force. I might have even bought it in that case, but there is no lore for us, and the MW:4-lemmings buy it anyway.

AS it stands in FP I try to stick to general purpose units or mechs with a "D" ID code, I try to run faction flavor in my FP drop decks... with the exception of the BSW-P1 or BSW-X2 I use in scouting.... and even then, they are still FedCom units.

[Odanan]

Wait a minute, there is another! MWO Skill Grid.

[Odanan]

Metus regem, on 17 May 2017 - 11:49 AM, said:

What I see when I see that the Anni got picked for the IS is either a critical lack of understanding of game play by PGI or a critical lack of choices for the IS in this time period by PGI.

There are many choices, trust me.

The problem is: there is a great part of the community (a part that keeps the game funded, BTW) that buy mechs simply because of nostalgia. Just look at the polls done in the past: Annihilator used to get a lot of votes.

PGI is just giving the people what the people want. Just don't expect the majority to be smart - it never is.

[Metus regem]

Odanan, on 17 May 2017 - 12:28 PM, said:

There are many choices, trust me.

The problem is: there is a great part of the community (a part that keeps the game funded, BTW) that buy mechs simply because of nostalgia. Just look at the polls done in the past: Annihilator used to get a lot of votes.

PGI is just giving the people what the people want. Just don't expect the majority to be smart - it never is.

I know, oh how I know... and when it hits, fails to live up to rose coloured glasses expectations from games that had true mech construction rules (MW3), due to the realities of MWO game play they are going to be a lot of posts that more or less boil down to this: "Waaaaa I didn't do my home work on the mech! And I didn't listen to people that tried to warn me!"...

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not against people wanting what they want, I'm more than guilty of that, I just want them to be aware of the limitations of those units before hand. I knew going into the Pixi she was going to have a rough ride in MWO, wanted it anyways. I knew the limitations of the Bushy going into it, and she hasn't failed to meet my expectations of her (in some cases actually surpassed a couple of them). My point is, mechs like the Anni have a place, but the game play of MWO doesn't really support that place (A2/AD). A much better choice for a Civil War assault would've been the Fafnir for the IS, both would stand a better place in actual game play mechanics.... I'd also argue that the Fafnir has just as much of a following as the Anni, but would be much better off in the game play realities of MWO.

[Odanan]

Metus regem, on 17 May 2017 - 12:46 PM, said:

A much better choice for a Civil War assault would've been the Fafnir for the IS, both would stand a better place in actual game play mechanics.... I'd also argue that the Fafnir has just as much of a following as the Anni, but would be much better off in the game play realities of MWO.

I think the Fafnir is the safest bet for next IS assault, by far.

Anyway, we are talking about the Anni but forgetting the Cougar and the Uziel. They all have their issues.
The Civil War pack looks heavily dictated by what these mechs were in the past games, instead of what they will be in MWO.

I hope PGI gives these mechs some expressive quirks. They can find their niche.

[Bishop Steiner]

Odanan, on 17 May 2017 - 01:13 PM, said:

I think the Fafnir is the safest bet for next IS assault, by far.

Anyway, we are talking about the Anni but forgetting the Cougar and the Uziel. They all have their issues.
The Civil War pack looks heavily dictated by what these mechs were in the past games, instead of what they will be in MWO.

I hope PGI gives these mechs some expressive quirks. They can find their niche.

UNLEASH THE TEMPLAR!!!!

[Metus regem]

Odanan, on 17 May 2017 - 01:13 PM, said:

I think the Fafnir is the safest bet for next IS assault, by far.

Anyway, we are talking about the Anni but forgetting the Cougar and the Uziel. They all have their issues.
The Civil War pack looks heavily dictated by what these mechs were in the past games, instead of what they will be in MWO.

I hope PGI gives these mechs some expressive quirks. They can find their niche.

No we're not for getting the Uziel, as it was mentioned a page or so back, it has issues largely high mounted weapons with a low mounted cockpit as well as easy to dissect ST's, meaning it is not going to be a great addition to the IS line up...

The Cougar on the other hand, I mentioned as "meh" it is another pocket medium, something that Clan Mechs usually do well at, being a pocket version of the next weight class up.

For reference of real world pocket units:

Spoiler

https://en.wikipedia...d-class_cruiser
https://en.wikipedia...lass_battleship

[Odanan]

Metus regem, on 17 May 2017 - 01:31 PM, said:

No we're not for getting the Uziel, as it was mentioned a page or so back, it has issues largely high mounted weapons with a low mounted cockpit as well as easy to dissect ST's, meaning it is not going to be a great addition to the IS line up...

The Cougar on the other hand, I mentioned as "meh" it is another pocket medium, something that Clan Mechs usually do well at, being a pocket version of the next weight class up.

Cougar is a slower Adder. It's not "meh", it's catastrophic.

Edited by Odanan, 17 May 2017 - 02:01 PM.

[Metus regem]

Odanan, on 17 May 2017 - 01:49 PM, said:

Cougar is a slower Adder. It's not "meh", it catastrophic.

While slow, it does pack an impressive weapons payload option... on top of that, slow is a relative term as well, yes it is slow for a light, but it is in line with Clan medium and heavy omni's not named Storm Crow, Line Backer or Night Gyr.

The Cougar is going to be able to offer 18t of pod space after maxing out the armour, that's a full 2t more pod space than the Adder can offer. I imagine used in a similar way to the Adder (pick something that is a much larger threat [timber wolf/Mad Dog/Summoner/Hellbringer] and go where it goes, shoot at what it shoots) it should do alright.

[Odanan]

Metus regem, on 17 May 2017 - 02:00 PM, said:

While slow, it does pack an impressive weapons payload option... on top of that, slow is a relative term as well, yes it is slow for a light, but it is in line with Clan medium and heavy omni's not named Storm Crow, Line Backer or Night Gyr.

The Cougar is going to be able to offer 18t of pod space after maxing out the armour, that's a full 2t more pod space than the Adder can offer. I imagine used in a similar way to the Adder (pick something that is a much larger threat [timber wolf/Mad Dog/Summoner/Hellbringer] and go where it goes, shoot at what it shoots) it should do alright.

It's slower than a Stormcrow or a Linebacker... anyway, those extra 2t of weapons won't save it from enemy fire. For a light mech in MWO, speed is life.

[FLG 01]

Bishop Steiner, on 17 May 2017 - 01:25 PM, said:

UNLEASH THE TEMPLAR!!!!

I am ok with it. It would not be my first choice, but there is no denying that the Templar has its merits and should be part of a FCCW-themed game. It is essential, actually.
The fact that it would be a novelty (IS Omni) and probably quite good puts it high on my list.

Odanan, on 17 May 2017 - 01:13 PM, said:

I think the Fafnir is the safest bet for next IS assault, by far.

I was sure it would be the first for the Civil War, or second after the Templar. But certainly not second after the Annihilator. I know it must be rather tiresome that I (and some others) bash the choice of the Mechs, but please understand I am not against the Mech itself. Everybody may have fun with what he likes. But I am very much angry about choosing this Mech and ignoring others.

It is pretty simply from where I am standing. PGI has the choice between Mech A and Mech B, both highly popular and in demand.

- Mech A fits the topic of the Mech pack (Civil War) perfectly, it promises good performance in MWO, and thus it is a valuable addition to its faction which is short on good Mechs in this weight class.

- Mech B has nothing to do with the topic of the Mech pack, it is likely going to be mediocre at best, and thus a less valuable addition to its faction which has a lot of mediocre Mechs in this weight class.

PGI chose Mech B. And I cannot possibly pretend being ok with it.

[Metus regem]

Odanan, on 17 May 2017 - 02:03 PM, said:

It's slower than a Stormcrow or a Linebacker... anyway, those extra 2t of weapons won't save it from enemy fire. For a light mech in MWO, speed is life.

Again I am aware that speed is life for lights in MWO. That being said, I was able to make Adders work very well during my time with CGBI, by using the smaller stature of the Adder to stick with the meaner heavies during group drops during the 3/3/3/3 period. I also cited that it was not the same speed as the Stormcrow or Line Backer.

What that extra 2t gives you though is a bit more bite, not something to ignore. If you are using the buddy system, if they are shooting at you, they are not shooting at something much meaner. If they are shooting at something much meaner they then are taking extra damage from you... As they say team work is OP.

Now I'm not saying that the Cougar is going to be the new hotness as far as lights go, rather it is going to likely be very much a niche mech, but to those that can play to it's strengths it should do alright, not good or great but alright.

How ever by the very virtue of being a Clan mech it is by default better than a mediocre mech like the Uziel, even before we take into account the Uziel's hit box issues and cockpit placement in relation to weapon mounts. This is reflected in the fact that running in the default configuration with max armour (Standard/LFF/FF) you are getting 18/19/19.5t of pod space while using the base 350isXL and 6 JJ's. Let that sink in for a moment, a 35t Clan Mech is boasting the same weapon/equipment space as a 50t IS mech....

[Odanan]

Metus regem, on 17 May 2017 - 02:17 PM, said:

Again I am aware that speed is life for lights in MWO. That being said, I was able to make Adders work very well during my time with CGBI, by using the smaller stature of the Adder to stick with the meaner heavies during group drops during the 3/3/3/3 period. I also cited that it was not the same speed as the Stormcrow or Line Backer.

What that extra 2t gives you though is a bit more bite, not something to ignore. If you are using the buddy system, if they are shooting at you, they are not shooting at something much meaner. If they are shooting at something much meaner they then are taking extra damage from you... As they say team work is OP.

Now I'm not saying that the Cougar is going to be the new hotness as far as lights go, rather it is going to likely be very much a niche mech, but to those that can play to it's strengths it should do alright, not good or great but alright.

I really hope PGI gives the Cougar some serious range quirks. It may find a place as light sniper (like the Shadow Cat found it's place in the medium bracket).

[TheArisen]

Odanan, on 17 May 2017 - 06:06 AM, said:

(updated the OP)

Why the Charger? It hasn't won any polls, etc. Longbow, Nightstar, Hauptmann, Hellspawn, Men Shen, etc have all done much better. I mean, there's about 20+ mechs ahead of it in line effectively.

[Odanan]

TheArisen, on 17 May 2017 - 02:56 PM, said:

Why the Charger? It hasn't won any polls, etc. Longbow, Nightstar, Hauptmann, Hellspawn, Men Shen, etc have all done much better. I mean, there's about 20+ mechs ahead of it in line effectively.

PGI already has the Charger concept art done (but didn't show it to us). The Charger was considered to be released alongside the Zeus and Cyclops. And, forgetting the poor stock loadouts, it can be a pretty good fast laser boat after MechLab.