20517 replies to this topic

[Requiemking]

Jay Leon Hart, on 04 July 2018 - 11:21 AM, said:

We already have the Marauder & Catapult, we don't need to copy the copy

Don't sell the Rakshasa short. It's already better in some ways than the Timby, and with some moderate quirkage it could be a fantastic mech.

[Kanil]

FLG 01, on 04 July 2018 - 06:11 AM, said:

What was the last heavy IS Mech people actually like playing in MWO? Roughneck? Alpha Lance?

I mean, there's only been one heavy 'mech added since the Roughneck and Alpha Lance... it's not like we've got a steady stream of crap in that weight class.

(... and that one 'mech is actually really good, if you ask me.)

[FLG 01]

Kanil, on 04 July 2018 - 11:43 AM, said:

I mean, there's only been one heavy 'mech added since the Roughneck and Alpha Lance... it's not like we've got a steady stream of crap in that weight class.

The fact that we got barely anything - and what we got hardly qualifies as "really good", even if it is not as bad as many think it is - rather supports my argument for finally getting a good heavy Mech.
Of course you are right that the IS mediums were hit harder by the parade of useless MW:4-originals....

Requiemking, on 04 July 2018 - 11:25 AM, said:

Don't sell the Rakshasa short. It's already better in some ways than the Timby, and with some moderate quirkage it could be a fantastic mech.

Rakshasa could work but I am not sure about it being fantastic. The interesting part could be having XL friendly geometry (without missiles and with some good will by PGI) to use a larger engine (which is where the Thanatos fails obviously). It may be good but it is somewhat overshadowed by better options.

[Odanan]

Jay Leon Hart, on 04 July 2018 - 11:21 AM, said:

We already have the Marauder & Catapult, we don't need to copy the copy

^

[Valdarion Silarius]

Jay Leon Hart, on 04 July 2018 - 11:15 AM, said:

He's not entirely wrong. I'm personally not a fan of it, but I could understand why PGI chose it since the only other 60 clan tonner in the game was the Mad Dog.

[Bishop Steiner]

Odanan, on 03 July 2018 - 03:20 PM, said:

Excalibur, Lancelot and Ostroc are actually good bets. But surely Argus and (if the deal with HG allow the release of more Unseen) Crusader are priority.

I'm just going say this, having really broken down the wording of Russ's statement, the available court documents, and possibly some secret squirrel sauce sources.

I believe it is highly unlikely that we will see any new Classic Unseen added to MWo or MW5. It is possible that the extant designs might still show up in HBS' Battletech Game, and possibly, but less likely in CGL's TT game.

While none of us know the wording and terms of the Settlement that PGI brokered, we do have the wording of Russ's statement which I can promise you was extremely specifically worded. "Piranha Games will continue to use the “classic” BattleTech designs". Continue to use, not continue to develop. It may seem like semantics, but when dealing with legalese, those semantics ARE the story. The devil is in the details.

Continue to use specifically implies existing designs.

That said, in only what 2? years... HG loses all licensing rights. They've already thoroughly pissed off Big West and Tatsunoko with their shenanigans, so it's highly unlikely they will have a snowball's chance in hell in re-acquiring those rights. Neither Japanese studio (and most in general) really has ever shown any inclination to care what we do here in America with the designs. I would expect the best bet to be that AFTER the bell tolls on Harmny Gold, THEN, and only then will we see new Classic Unseen added.

No, I'm not a lawyer, or even play one on TV... or in an RPG.

trajan331, on 04 July 2018 - 11:19 AM, said:

This is why, even though I think Argus is probably the most likely choice, I think Rakshasa would be the much more fun choice. Inner Sphere would love to have it's own Timber Wolf.

Gimme a Lancelot. 6/9 60 tonner with a buttload of loadout variants, including a model with twin AC5s and a jumper.

[Valdarion Silarius]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 July 2018 - 03:06 PM, said:

I'm just going say this, having really broken down the wording of Russ's statement, the available court documents, and possibly some secret squirrel sauce sources.

I believe it is highly unlikely that we will see any new Classic Unseen added to MWo or MW5. It is possible that the extant designs might still show up in HBS' Battletech Game, and possibly, but less likely in CGL's TT game.

Keep in mind that the Incubus (Vixen) is a new classic Unseen that will be added in MW:O sometime in the future. Does that mean that the VMI mechs are completely off the hook due to FASA's bad trade agreement? It seems likely, but only time will tell with future mech releases.

I'm not sure what that will spell for the other unseens like the Crusader and Longbow if my statement above is correct. I'll be damn happy if we get the remaining MW:2 mechs in MW:O since just having the Marauder IIC in game feels a bit empty to me.

[Bishop Steiner]

Arnold The Governator, on 04 July 2018 - 03:21 PM, said:

Keep in mind that the Incubus (Vixen) is a new classic Unseen that will be added in MW:O sometime in the future. Does that mean that the VMI mechs are completely off the hook due to FASA's bad trade agreement? It seems likely, but only time will tell with future mech releases.

I'm not sure what that will spell for the other unseens like the Crusader and Longbow if my statement above is correct. I'll be damn happy if we get the remaining MW:2 mechs in MW:O since just having the Marauder IIC in game feels a bit empty to me.

Vixen is not nearly as direct a connection as the Warhammer, Marauder, Rifleman or Phoenix Hawk IICs.

[The Lighthouse]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 July 2018 - 03:06 PM, said:

I'm just going say this, having really broken down the wording of Russ's statement, the available court documents, and possibly some secret squirrel sauce sources.

I believe it is highly unlikely that we will see any new Classic Unseen added to MWo or MW5. It is possible that the extant designs might still show up in HBS' Battletech Game, and possibly, but less likely in CGL's TT game.

While none of us know the wording and terms of the Settlement that PGI brokered, we do have the wording of Russ's statement which I can promise you was extremely specifically worded. "Piranha Games will continue to use the “classic” BattleTech designs". Continue to use, not continue to develop. It may seem like semantics, but when dealing with legalese, those semantics ARE the story. The devil is in the details.

Continue to use specifically implies existing designs.

That said, in only what 2? years... HG loses all licensing rights. They've already thoroughly pissed off Big West and Tatsunoko with their shenanigans, so it's highly unlikely they will have a snowball's chance in hell in re-acquiring those rights. Neither Japanese studio (and most in general) really has ever shown any inclination to care what we do here in America with the designs. I would expect the best bet to be that AFTER the bell tolls on Harmny Gold, THEN, and only then will we see new Classic Unseen added.

No, I'm not a lawyer, or even play one on TV... or in an RPG.


Gimme a Lancelot. 6/9 60 tonner with a buttload of loadout variants, including a model with twin AC5s and a jumper.

Bishop Steiner, on 04 July 2018 - 03:23 PM, said:

Vixen is not nearly as direct a connection as the Warhammer, Marauder, Rifleman or Phoenix Hawk IICs.

People are confused with "Classic" and "Unseen", due to the fact everyone just calls mechs like Marauders "Unseen".


"Unseens" designs are the those carbon copy or near-carbon copy of robots from Marcross stuffs. No matter what happens, they won't appear, permanently. End of discussion.


"Classic" designs are bascially re-done designs of those Unseen mechs from Project Phoenix. MWO actually has tons of Classic mechs, like Locust (people keep forgetting it) and a lot of ones already existed. It is just Warhammer and Rifleman and some others are far more popular than those ones.


Catalyst Labs has already made Classic designs on many other mechs that are not in MWO yet, such as Wasp, Stinger and etc.


You would had been right if the lawsuit is dismissed only for PGI, but the lawsuit also dismissed claims against Catalyst Labs, essentially letting those Classic designs, that are not in MWO, go.


The end of lawsuit, it is clearly stated that PGI will continue to use 'Classic' design, and with lawsuit against CL dismissed, that includes 'Classic' designs from CL as well. At worst PGI just can exactly copy the designs from Catalyst Labs if they want to port remaining unseen mechs. In legal means I see no problems.


And practically, HG at this point can't really file another lawsuit, when it is clear they will lose their license completely in just mere one year and half. Also due to nature of Anglo-American Law legal system, their claims have been weaker and weaker due to failed lawsuits like this one. If they are going to do next one, it is going to be even harder.





That said, I still need Hollander in my vain, and personally I really do not like those early mechs. I need my Hollander, Stiletto, and finally Turkina to complete all mechs that were available in Mech Commander 1 and its expansion.



AND GOD, WHEN WILL WE HAVE IS OMNIMECHS SO I CAN ABSOLUTELY DEMAND REMAINING MECH COMMANDER 2 MECHS? Anubis and Men Shen are amazing mechs that deserve to be in this game. At least Starslayer and Shootist can be ported right now!

Edited by The Lighthouse, 04 July 2018 - 04:29 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

The Lighthouse, on 04 July 2018 - 04:28 PM, said:

People are confused with "Classic" and "Unseen", due to the fact everyone just calls mechs like Marauders "Unseen".


"Unseens" designs are the those carbon copy or near-carbon copy of robots from Marcross stuffs. No matter what happens, they won't appear, permanently. End of discussion.


"Classic" designs are bascially re-done designs of those Unseen mechs from Project Phoenix. MWO actually has tons of Classic mechs, like Locust (people keep forgetting it) and a lot of ones already existed. It is just Warhammer and Rifleman and some others are far more popular than those ones.


Catalyst Labs has already made Classic designs on many other mechs that are not in MWO yet, such as Wasp, Stinger and etc.


You would had been right if the lawsuit is dismissed only for PGI, but the lawsuit also dismissed claims against Catalyst Labs, essentially letting those Classic designs, that are not in MWO, go.


The end of lawsuit, it is clearly stated that PGI will continue to use 'Classic' design, and with lawsuit against CL dismissed, that includes 'Classic' designs from CL as well. At worst PGI just can exactly copy the designs from Catalyst Labs if they want to port remaining unseen mechs. In legal means I see no problems.


And practically, HG at this point can't really file another lawsuit, when it is clear they will lose their license completely in just mere one year and half. Also due to nature of Anglo-American Law legal system, their claims have been weaker and weaker due to failed lawsuits like this one. If they are going to do next one, it is going to be even harder.





That said, I still need Hollander in my vain, and personally I really do not like those early mechs. I need my Hollander, Stiletto, and finally Turkina to complete all mechs that were available in Mech Commander 1 and its expansion.



AND GOD, WHEN WILL WE HAVE IS OMNIMECHS SO I CAN ABSOLUTELY DEMAND REMAINING MECH COMMANDER 2 MECHS? Anubis and Men Shen are amazing mechs that deserve to be in this game. At least Starslayer and Shootist can be ported right now!

I'm well aware of the distinction in the use.

[The Lighthouse]

Yeah, so today is Wednesday....



...Where is my Hollander?

[Bishop Steiner]

The Lighthouse, on 04 July 2018 - 04:40 PM, said:

Yeah, so today is Wednesday....



...Where is my Hollander?

In the great scrapyard in the sky where Hollanders always end up?

[The Lighthouse]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 July 2018 - 04:41 PM, said:

In the great scrapyard in the sky where Hollanders always end up?

Not really, Hollander is an actually a very powerful mech in TT.

With Urbie's defensive quirks and Grid Iron's offensive quirks it can be a very good mech. Even in Mech Commander it was not really a bad mech if one can manage ammo issue. Even better if we can get Medium mech version, Hollander II. There is a heavy gauss version as well.

[Valdarion Silarius]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 July 2018 - 04:35 PM, said:

I'm well aware of the distinction in the use.

Then again, I'm not trying to argue here, but it would make the most logical sense from the agreement that classic remaining redesigns from PGI should be good to go. Regardless of the names like Warhammer, Rifleman, etc. Remember, the case is still technically open if harmony gold was foolish enough to harass PGI again with their limited year and a half stranglehold on the license. PGI's lawyers did officially discover that they do NOT own the rights of the artwork to the 41 characters, but only the english dubbing and the scripts.

It would be best if Harmony Gold went their own way and scrap whatever decency to focus on their own projects, while they leave the Battletech franchise in peace. If they were stupid enough to stur up another hornets nest of copyright trolling, then they will evidently get Microsoft and Paradox Interactive involved in the limited time span of what they think they own. It would be Hasbro vs HG 2.0 all over again.

The Lighthouse, on 04 July 2018 - 04:28 PM, said:

"Unseens" designs are the those carbon copy or near-carbon copy of robots from Marcross stuffs. No matter what happens, they won't appear, permanently. End of discussion.

And I would be completely find with this. I naturally prefer PGI's redesigns over the unseen artwork. I absolutely love the redesign that they did with the Timberwolf since I was never a fan of the original tubular arms and unlikeliness of it ever being a real war machine.

Edited by Arnold The Governator, 04 July 2018 - 04:56 PM.

[FupDup]

The Lighthouse, on 04 July 2018 - 04:44 PM, said:

Not really, Hollander is an actually a very powerful mech in TT.

Eh, yes and no. The Hollander's niche was that it let you add a Gauss Rifle to your army for fewer C-Bills and/or lower BattleValue than a larger unit. It was a "bang for your buck" kind of unit. Anything bigger than the Hollander with a Gauss Rifle (or multiple Gauss) was better in a direct 1-to-1 comparison but generally more expensive (less cost-effective).

However, in a game like MWO where absolute effectiveness (1-to-1 power) is the only thing that matters (cost effectiveness is not a thing here), that advantage goes away pretty quick. It would need pretty hefty quirkage to make it powerful on the absolute power level scale, and I'm not optimistic about that given PGI's historical stinginess with quirks.

[Bishop Steiner]

Arnold The Governator, on 04 July 2018 - 04:47 PM, said:

Then again, I'm not trying to argue here, but it would make the most logical sense from the agreement that classic remaining redesigns from PGI should be good to go. Regardless of the names like Warhammer, Rifleman, etc. Remember, the case is still technically open if harmony gold was foolish enough to harass PGI again with their limited year and a half stranglehold on the license. PGI's lawyers did officially discover that they do NOT own the rights of the artwork to the 41 characters, but only the english dubbing and the scripts.

It would be best if Harmony Gold went their own way and scrap whatever decency to focus on their own projects, while they leave the Battletech franchise in peace. If they were stupid enough to stur up another hornets nest of copyright trolling, then they will evidently get Microsoft and Paradox Interactive involved in the limited time span of what they think they own. It would be Hasbro vs HG 2.0 all over again.


And I would be completely find with this. I naturally prefer PGI's redesigns over the unseen artwork. I absolutely love the redesign that they did with the Timberwolf since I was never a fan of the original's tubular arms and unlikeliness of it ever being a real war machine.

The single most likely explanation for the specific verbiage of the announcement from Russ is they came to an agreement to allow them the continued use of the assets already designed/in game. There is absolutely nothing in the language to indicate developing new ones. This is reading the language as it is printed, not the language with any "interpretation" added.

[The Lighthouse]

Arnold The Governator, on 04 July 2018 - 04:47 PM, said:

And I would be completely find with this. I naturally prefer PGI's redesigns over the unseen artwork. I absolutely love the redesign that they did with the Timberwolf since I was never a fan of the original's tubular arms and unlikeliness of it ever being a real war machine.

Well, it is not just unseen artworks require redesigns.

Almost entire mechs really need redsigns if you ask me. Too many medieval fantasy robots and dinosaurs that would had been big hits in 1980s, but they are hardly passable in this age.

Also the quality of those artworks are really bad in general.

[Bishop Steiner]

FupDup, on 04 July 2018 - 04:53 PM, said:

Eh, yes and no. The Hollander's niche was that it let you add a Gauss Rifle to your army for fewer C-Bills and/or lower BattleValue than a larger unit. It was a "bang for your buck" kind of unit. Anything bigger than the Hollander with a Gauss Rifle (or multiple Gauss) was better in a direct 1-to-1 comparison but generally more expensive (less cost-effective).

However, in a game like MWO where absolute effectiveness (1-to-1 power) is the only thing that matters (cost effectiveness is not a thing here), that advantage goes away pretty quick. It would need pretty hefty quirkage to make it powerful on the absolute power level scale, and I'm not optimistic about that given PGI's historical stinginess with quirks.

not to mention that unless they completely screw up the weapon meshes (yay dynamic weapon scaling!) the thing is going to have terrible hitboxes thanks to the big honking cannon jutting out.

Then again this is PGI weapon geometry we are talking here so maybe it won't be an issue.

[The Lighthouse]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 July 2018 - 04:57 PM, said:

The single most likely explanation for the specific verbiage of the announcement from Russ is they came to an agreement to allow them the continued use of the assets already designed/in game. There is absolutely nothing in the language to indicate developing new ones. This is reading the language as it is printed, not the language with any "interpretation" added.

Did you read the statement from CGL? It is not just PGI got hit by lawsuit, right? And what picture did they put?

[Bishop Steiner]

The Lighthouse, on 04 July 2018 - 05:02 PM, said:

Did you read the statement from CGL? It is not just PGI got hit by lawsuit, right? And what picture did they put?

And again... the Marauder? An Asset they already had put into print and use. An EXISTING design. NOT a new one.

The difference is you guys are thinking with what you are HOPING for, not simply evaluating what is said and presented. I want them to produce more. But I don't let that blind me to what is actually being said.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 05 July 2018 - 06:20 AM.