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Ultimate Mech Discussion Thread

BattleMech Balance

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#20321 TheArisen

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Posted 30 April 2019 - 11:09 PM

View PostCorbon Zackery, on 30 April 2019 - 03:24 PM, said:

Yea none of those mech are really on the Unofficial napkin list

1. We wont see a Macross mech release until after MechWarrior 5 comes out. Don't want do anything that might mess up the release.

2. The unofficial napkin List is as follows:
That's really the paper napkin list:


I'm guessing this is your list or what is it exactly?

#20322 50 50

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Posted 30 April 2019 - 11:19 PM

If the IS Omnis were introduced I would hope to see them as a pack of 4 mechs like we saw when the Clan Battlemechs were introduced.
The issue of survivability due to the the mechs having XL engines aside, implementing IS Omnis I would not expect to be overly difficult.

Quads do present other challenges.
The movement animations might be a little more challenging but if you have a bunch of animators there, surely that is their bread and butter and they would be putting their hand up to have a go at it.

I don't really see the modelling being any more difficult, just different and that might be a new and refreshing challenge for those people.

Coding wise, it's things like having the different movement profile, how are the arms treated for critical spaces, actuators and what it means to lose one.
It's the design questions that would probably generate the most debate:

Spoiler

Edited by 50 50, 30 April 2019 - 11:21 PM.


#20323 Ovion

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Posted 01 May 2019 - 04:29 AM

View PostOdanan, on 30 April 2019 - 03:21 PM, said:

I would say:

1 2D artist: 2 weeks for each mech (concept art, orthos and 3 repaints - 1 for standard, 1 for collectors and 1 for hero)
1 2D artist, UI: 1 week.
1 3D artist, modelling: 3 weeks (3d model, parts for the different variants, geometry)
1 3D artist, texture: 2 days for each camo pattern.
1 3D artist, animations: 1 week for animating each mech.
2 coders: 3 months making the code for quad mechs (including variants and mechlab).
1 guy to plan and manage the team.

And this is not on top of their usual work, THIS IS THEIR WORK.

BTW, I suspect Alex Iglesias has dozens of concept arts of mech we will never see in the game. Or do you think he draws one single mech each month?
No, their usual work is maintaining and developing MWO.
They still need to produce and do everything they are doing right now while making quad mechs.
Quad mechs are an entirely new, additional system, that needs to be bolted on to the frankenengine.
And that's ignoring getting IK working.

You're severely underestimating how much time and effort would go into this.
This would be at least as much work, if not more than Clans were to implement, and that took PGI an easy 6-12 months (and really, needed 18 to be properly sorted).

Making Quad Mechs would not be economically viable for PGI to introduce to MWO, no matter how much we'd love to see them.

#20324 Odanan

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Posted 01 May 2019 - 07:13 AM

View PostOvion, on 01 May 2019 - 04:29 AM, said:

No, their usual work is maintaining and developing MWO.

You mean, mech packs?

View PostOvion, on 01 May 2019 - 04:29 AM, said:

Making Quad Mechs would not be economically viable for PGI to introduce to MWO, no matter how much we'd love to see them.

In that I completely agree.

#20325 Odanan

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Posted 02 May 2019 - 03:00 AM

Today?

#20326 Odanan

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Posted 02 May 2019 - 04:10 AM

Anyway, somebody saw the AMA #6 yesterday?

#20327 Karl Streiger

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Posted 02 May 2019 - 04:44 AM

View PostOdanan, on 02 May 2019 - 04:10 AM, said:

Anyway, somebody saw the AMA #6 yesterday?


JaidenHaze did translate it. Topic was procedual terrain generation only.

#20328 Pariah Devalis

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Posted 02 May 2019 - 07:50 AM

View PostOdanan, on 30 April 2019 - 03:21 PM, said:

I would say:

1 2D artist: 2 weeks for each mech (concept art, orthos and 3 repaints - 1 for standard, 1 for collectors and 1 for hero)
1 2D artist, UI: 1 week.
1 3D artist, modelling: 3 weeks (3d model, parts for the different variants, geometry)
1 3D artist, texture: 2 days for each camo pattern.
1 3D artist, animations: 1 week for animating each mech.
2 coders: 3 months making the code for quad mechs (including variants and mechlab).
1 guy to plan and manage the team.

And this is not on top of their usual work, THIS IS THEIR WORK.

BTW, I suspect Alex Iglesias has dozens of concept arts of mech we will never see in the game. Or do you think he draws one single mech each month?


I don't know why the mechlab need be any different, honestly. All one would need to do is install the leg actuators in the "arms," I.D. the arms on quads such that JJ can be installed in them just like legs, and you've basically done all the work for the mechlab to make it quad-correct. The lab itself could stay the same so long as it pulls the data for a quad under that ruleset.

Cockpit U.I. wouldn't need to be altered, either, with the exclusion of the removal of a torso twist indicator - although you can probably just keep it, as it'll be locked to 0 degrees, anyways. The bulk of the work would be involving enabling the WSAD motion of the body, and having it assign mouselook to turning the entire mech, as well as a limited up/down pitch angle. Then you just need animations to match the motions, though with 4 legs doing all the work, those would be some seriously complex animations.

The only final adjusted after that would be how the game treats arm/leg destruction on quads. With four legs, obviously losing one or two won't be quite the same as on a biped. You'd probably want to do something like a 25% speed loss per leg, with death on all four legs being knocked out.

#20329 Odanan

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Posted 02 May 2019 - 11:55 AM

View PostKarl Streiger, on 02 May 2019 - 04:44 AM, said:

JaidenHaze did translate it. Topic was procedual terrain generation only.

Google translated to English:

Hey, unfortunately today missed the first AMA, tomorrow if the recording is there to hear about whether there are new information. Have my "lunch break" (just make night shifts) used and was there for the second AMA here. Unfortunately, some answers are very brief, it was very fast and there was a lot of information, many of them repeated through the chat delay. I hope you can still pull out useful information.

Here it is:
12. AMA Wednesday, 02.05.2019
Dave Forsey - Designer
Thad Jantzi - Level Designer
Diptoman Mukherjee - Technical Designer

- Theme Random Automatic Level Generation

- Description:
The goal is that people only work on the terrain. Our generation uses human-generated parts, which are then combined like a puzzle. These parts have different configurations, so the main goals and side tasks are different.

The assets are garrisons, cities, ect ect. This will also check fire lines

- Enemy Units: The opponents who are placed are usually not specific units

- New biomes: Yes, could be supported. Indoor tilesets are a bit more complex but with adjustments possible.

- Documentation for Map Generation: We have some people already working on mods, but the documentation is very primitive and comes soon after the launch. That will happen - if - then more at the code level.

- 3D Tile Generation: We do not have any underground tilesets yet, they would have to be set by hand in a mission.

- Mission Generator: The mission generator pays attention to the terrain when creating the objectives.

- Multilevel Fortresses: No multilevel fortresses in the base game.

- Story Missions: The story missions are always the same, but for normal random missions these cards are not used.

- Cancel forests and grass: Yes, that is possible.

- Several biomes in a map: Unfortunately no.

- City Map Tileset: Yes, that would be possible. But that could give performance problems.

- AI on random cards: The AI ​​recognizes the set objects and can accordingly navigate around here.

- Mission generation: Each mission consists of several input parameters and an number number seed, all of which pay for the mission generation. If you use the same numbers, the same random mission would come out

- objects like bridges: are not currently in the target

- Terrain Variation: The underlying technology exists to have a lot of variation, but the variety may not be so numerous at launch.

- Best feature of the generation Rnd: The general terrain looks great and fits very well with the game. That was the most satisfying feature so far.

- Card limits: Usually by eg. Managed mountains or shorelines. There is a message that you are approaching the edge. If you go on, an invisible wall will come.

- Nonstory missions with certain seed: Mod content can be fed with certain parameters so that always the same missions are generated.

- Water: There are no rivers, there are lakes and small ponds. There are no naval forces and no oceans.

- Complete map generation by mods: Yes that is possible and the map size is arbitrary. This is limited to random generation to keep the performance high. Only extremely large maps around 64 km2 could cause problems.

- Hazards in biomes: swamps, minefields, stuff like that.

- AI op For selection: OpFor will be selected based on fractions and other levels, not based on the created terrain.

- Save maps for Quick play: Not yet, it is possible. We're doing something internally for testing, but we have not released it yet. We may add it after the release because it costs some time (UI and bug testing).

- Selection of Tileset Pieces and Defender: The "spaces" are not chosen at random, they are taken based on the mission and therefore always fit together. So we're trying to do more like a Battlefield simulator. Some areas are drastically different and have different defenders, depending on which mission parameters are used.

- Levelseed: Yes, conceptually this is possible. We may add a string containing all variables.

- Survival-Type Level (waves): It's an idea of ​​what we're working on, which may not be like an infinite Horde mode. But we want to insert an Evac time. In the Quickplay, such a game mode should work well as well.

- Planets with multiple biomes: A planet always has several biomes, there are planets with only 1 biomes, but earth-like planets have several biomes.

- Tileset Informations: A Tileset is about 750m x 750 meters and has different features that are then populated and some can also be combined for different features.

- Number of biomes: Currently about a dozen, but this number is still changing.

- Quick Play Map Gen: We have not decided yet how we represent this in the UI because certain mission types want specific map parts.

- Story missions as a random mission: We have the technique to use the story maps, but the feature is currently not used.

- Level Gen Parameters: There are a lot of parameters but how they are displayed is not yet known.

- Day / Night Cycle: Currently no because the missions do not take long enough.

- Restarting missions: There is no savescumming, you can only play a mission once. Just an attempt to get it right.

- Edge parts: Can be flagged in the editor and prevent such features from becoming dead ends (like canyons).

- hovercraft and water: no pure water tiles.

- Rivers: We decided against it because it massively restricted the level generation. That's why the feature was left out in the end.

- Generate maps again if the mission is too difficult: no. That would be against the meaning of the battlefield simulator. You can just retire and live with defeat.

- Star chart: There is a star chart used for navigation.

- Performance: There are LOD and mission optimization performance optimizations that are done after the base terrain.

- Missions fail: There are call reductions when starting missions and stopping directly because, for example, the enemies are too strong. At least you have to fight something.

- Stay connected: There should not be a tileset where you should get stuck. But there is an Unstuck command that can be used a few times.

- Starting a mission: Based on the mission, you start directly from the leopard, for example, or you can start directly from the ground.

- Movement restrictions due to weather, sand and water: Is not part of the map generation, I can not answer.

- Day-night: There are day and night variants of a map.

- Prey and Debris: You usually do not return to old maps where you already were, so you see no such debris and left behind loot.

- Falling through the world: Should not happen.

- Combat Drops: Yes, that can happen.

- Modding: We will bare everything we can. It should be very customizable.

- Spawn points that are not ground level: Yes, these are then set with dropships

- Oceans: There are no deep sea biomes

- Modding: Modders have access to everything in the base game.

- AI Spawnpoints: These are set by the generator based on criteria we set. Some are tied to tiles, others are tied to events. If you play against defenders, they will not spawn in the back of the players.

- Unmatched Map Parts: Should not happen.

- Setting objects: Things like fortresses are pre-produced and are not part of the terrain gene.

- Fuel tanks and other environmental hazards: Can harm the player

- Space combat: No

- mission briefings for random missions: are always adjusted (based on a text file), but these descriptions could be repeated if you play long enough.

- Complexity Meter for Terrain: There is an Intel section that gives some details, but that's rudimentary.

- Convoy missions. There are no convoy missions currently. Modders could build these, but they are only at the lowest level here.

- Cards for the player: Yes there is radar and a battlefield card with different views for height ect.

- Hottest Spot: So we have volcanic areas pretty high.

- Escort mission creation: As a modder you have full access to all and can customize it.

- Skyboxes: We can not answer this question today.

- Turrets and Walls: These are fixed designs and when a fortress is created, it is assigned a Battle Value. For example, the generator can only fill 5 out of 20 possible turrets.

- Detailed preview of the map: The player will "blindly" go into the map, there will be no preview.

- Multitile assets: That's possible, but we do not currently use the feature to have more variance in the generator.

- Tower Defense: The player can not set towers and configure a base. But you may have existing towers that help you.

- External heat: There is an ambient temperature.

- OpFor Generation: Based on fraction, where you are, what time it is and based on that OpFor is generated.

- Battle Value System: Gross value that tells how many opponents you have. Garrisons will grow in complexity with higher BV and is quite similar to the TT system.

- Mission start day / night choice: No

- maximum number of objects on a map: No statement, we are still working on it and a lot depends on the optimization.

- Streaming new map parts: It is theoretically possible but we do not work with it.

- Elevations: There are currently 3 different "heights", but nothing goes further.

- Damaged Buildings / Cities: Most objects have damage from previous encounters.

- special urban tiles: Yes, there are specific parts that are special for city areas.

- Jump Jet Only areas: No, you can get anywhere without JJ.

- Map Generator: The map generation is not like in a normal map gene, but is done via Tiles. This is fundamentally different than eg in Half-life or warcraft 3.

- Map Tiles Rules: Map tiles have strict rules on how they can be set. A cliff can only be placed next to a cliff.

- Map usage: The player is sometimes sent over the whole map and everything is accessible.

- Variance of OpFor generation: There are drastic differences, 2 armed forces can have clearly different compositions.

- Forest maps: There are dense forest areas.

#20330 Odanan

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Posted 03 May 2019 - 12:43 PM

View PostCtrlAltWheee, on 03 May 2019 - 11:06 AM, said:


The highlights for me:
1. There *are* going to be soldiers on the ground, but not a lot. (I hope I heard this right)
2. Basically everything in the game will be available to the mod community.
3. There will be weather effects. Rain, snow, etc.
4. It sounds like the placement of compounds within the map is randomized. The compound itself and the layout of buildings is created by hand and there are pre-made configurations.
5. There is not currently a day/night cycle because missions don't last long enough for that to seem like a high priority (I agree)
6. There will be water elements like streams and oceans. Basic at launch and possibly more advanced down the line.

Hopefully that's all accurate. I was half-listening while I was doing some work. Thanks to NGNG for the video.


#20331 Shadowomega1

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Posted 03 May 2019 - 03:29 PM

View PostOdanan, on 03 May 2019 - 12:43 PM, said:



Number 5 disappoints me as they could have a fight on an asteroid/plantoid which is spinning at a decent speed like a certain map in Living Legends; where even water would freeze up and destroy anything caught in the water when the freezing occurs.

#20332 Odanan

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Posted 06 May 2019 - 02:47 PM

Nothing? Nada?

#20333 TheArisen

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Posted 06 May 2019 - 07:47 PM

View PostOdanan, on 06 May 2019 - 02:47 PM, said:

Nothing? Nada?

Something this week I imagine.

#20334 BarHaid

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Posted 06 May 2019 - 08:56 PM

Never on a Monday.

#20335 Sereglach

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Posted 07 May 2019 - 10:04 AM

It'll be very, VERY weird if we don't get something this week. PGI only has enough mechs lined up to get them through to June; and even with MW5 up and coming that's still 3 months (July, August, September) before it releases. Three months with no mech packs would likely be extremely painful for PGI to pull off, unless they've raked in SERIOUS MW5 pre-orders.

Russ had stated we'd hear news "soontm" on NGNG for new mech pack release plans . . . and that was April 15th for that tweet. Makes you wonder what they're up to. Are they really that extremely all-hands-on-deck for MW5 release, or are they planning some kind of big mech pack or mech pack style to sync with MW5? I'd still love to see what I had mentioned before: put a MW5 download code for collectors packs, and better, into future MWO mech packs while also making each chassis an approx. $5 independent DLC for MW5. Of course, I also wouldn't mind a big "Resurgence" pack for the remaining Classics to coincide with MW5 release . . . Wasp, Chameleon, Crusader, and Longbow along with possible Stinger and Valkyrie reinforcements (along with MW5 DLC code, of course).

#20336 Odanan

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Posted 07 May 2019 - 10:27 AM

View PostSereglach, on 07 May 2019 - 10:04 AM, said:

Of course, I also wouldn't mind a big "Resurgence" pack for the remaining Classics to coincide with MW5 release . . . Wasp, Chameleon, Crusader, and Longbow along with possible Stinger and Valkyrie reinforcements (along with MW5 DLC code, of course).

This. ^

#20337 TheArisen

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Posted 07 May 2019 - 01:56 PM

View PostSereglach, on 07 May 2019 - 10:04 AM, said:

It'll be very, VERY weird if we don't get something this week. PGI only has enough mechs lined up to get them through to June; and even with MW5 up and coming that's still 3 months (July, August, September) before it releases. Three months with no mech packs would likely be extremely painful for PGI to pull off, unless they've raked in SERIOUS MW5 pre-orders.

Russ had stated we'd hear news "soontm" on NGNG for new mech pack release plans . . . and that was April 15th for that tweet. Makes you wonder what they're up to. Are they really that extremely all-hands-on-deck for MW5 release, or are they planning some kind of big mech pack or mech pack style to sync with MW5? I'd still love to see what I had mentioned before: put a MW5 download code for collectors packs, and better, into future MWO mech packs while also making each chassis an approx. $5 independent DLC for MW5. Of course, I also wouldn't mind a big "Resurgence" pack for the remaining Classics to coincide with MW5 release . . . Wasp, Chameleon, Crusader, and Longbow along with possible Stinger and Valkyrie reinforcements (along with MW5 DLC code, of course).

Yeah that's a strong possibility that they'll play their best cards to ensure MW5 is successful.

#20338 Karl Streiger

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Posted 08 May 2019 - 03:24 AM

View PostTheArisen, on 07 May 2019 - 01:56 PM, said:

Yeah that's a strong possibility that they'll play their best cards to ensure MW5 is successful.

You mean, successful before its even released, so they earn the money before negative critics scare away possible customers?
Considering that we don't know anything about an renewed licence the worst case (unfortunately worst is usually the thing you can expect) is a minimal playable game - that would need community patches and mods to be worth the money all of you guys already invested.

#20339 MeiSooHaityu

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Posted 08 May 2019 - 03:32 AM

View PostShadowomega1, on 03 May 2019 - 03:29 PM, said:


Number 5 disappoints me as they could have a fight on an asteroid/plantoid which is spinning at a decent speed like a certain map in Living Legends; where even water would freeze up and destroy anything caught in the water when the freezing occurs.


It doesn't really bother me one way or the other. I did enjoy the day/night cycles in some MechWarrior 2 missions, but back then that type of thing was pretty new to gaming. Ultimately I think it is a novelty, so I don't mind it not being there. One of those cool things if it was, but I won't miss it either.

#20340 MeiSooHaityu

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Posted 08 May 2019 - 03:53 AM

The important thing as always is to keep expectations in check. This is an indie studio making a game on a rather limited budget (compared to AAA studios).

After watching the demo mission from MechCon (seeing a mission played out), and hearing the AMAs, I would like to think I have a pretty solid idea of what MechWarrior 5 is going to be. It sounds like basically an updated MechWarrior 4:Mercs with the obvious visual improvements. It has a more limited Mechlab, but also a bit more Company management and more contract freedom, and a lot more mechs.

Mind you, the demo we saw at MechCon was an Alpha at best, so there would most likely be some AI improvements and also the change to the building collision destruction (no more hot knife through butter).

Maybe I am selling it short comparing it to an updated MechWarrior 4:Mercs, however from what we have seen, I think that is a solid evaluation. I enjoyed playing MW4:Mercs, I have a good feeling I will enjoy this one too.

Just by going off of what was shown at MechCon and what was talked about in the AMAs, it should be worth every penny I have paid for it.





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