20517 replies to this topic

[stjobe]

Re: the Panther: It comes stock with a 140-rated engine, so it would have a max engine rating of 195 (140 * 1.4 = 196), which means it's absolute top speed in MWO would be 90 kph (99 with Speed Tweak).

We have heavies that are faster than that.

Edited by stjobe, 26 January 2014 - 05:55 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

stjobe, on 26 January 2014 - 12:14 AM, said:

That's the obvious reason; they tripled firing rates while leaving heat dissipation as-is, meaning all weapons are three times as hot in MWO as in TT. The Panther would overheat in 35 seconds of firing its PPC; 20 seconds if also firing its SRM-4. And that's a 'mech that was heat-neutral in TT just firing its PPC.

There's also a few other things making the Panther a no-go design in MWO:

Doubled armour means the PPC isn't the very dangerous weapon it was in TT, and a single PPC + a single SRM-4 is woefully undergunned for something meant to provide fire support (I used to play with a Ghetto Panther PNT-10K, and it really lacks punch).

And finally, a 64 kph top speed means it'll be as easy to hit as an assault, but with a third of the armour of one. It'd be ridiculously easy to kill.


As would I, and many others. We'll just have to keep dreaming until someone decides to make a proper BattleTech game; sometime after 2020 I guess, since that's how long PGI has the license.

Doubled armor, which would be totally unnecessary if they had kept a slower weapon cycle time like MW3 or 4. Faster than TT still, but 3 ppc shots in 10 seconds is not needed. If PPCs has a cooldown closer to 5 seconds, gauss and ac20, 6, ac2s maybe 1.5 second and ac5 every 2.5 or so, it would still have been much faster paced without all the re adjustments we have seen (being that this is literally the only version to need to double armor. I really don't think gamers aim has gotten that much better). Remove the pinpoint alpha with convergence. Armor would be fine.

Smarter implementation of the heat threshhold and dissipation would finish the job, and now one would find SHS units and stock loadouts usable, even if not "optimal" (which is how it should be. DHS should still be pretty much a no brainer upgrade for energy reliant builds, but some of these ballistics builds, like a Jagers stock armament, should be totally doable with SHS (at least if they go easy on the medium lasers. I don't even think the ballistics need to be heat neutral on it, just able to go full monty for 20-30 seconds before having to back off.)

Add in sized hardpoints, and virtually every mech would have a chance to be usable.

[Odanan]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 January 2014 - 06:09 AM, said:

Doubled armor, which would be totally unnecessary if they had kept a slower weapon cycle time like MW3 or 4. Faster than TT still, but 3 ppc shots in 10 seconds is not needed. If PPCs has a cooldown closer to 5 seconds, gauss and ac20, 6, ac2s maybe 1.5 second and ac5 every 2.5 or so, it would still have been much faster paced without all the re adjustments we have seen (being that this is literally the only version to need to double armor. I really don't think gamers aim has gotten that much better). Remove the pinpoint alpha with convergence. Armor would be fine.

Smarter implementation of the heat threshhold and dissipation would finish the job, and now one would find SHS units and stock loadouts usable, even if not "optimal" (which is how it should be. DHS should still be pretty much a no brainer upgrade for energy reliant builds, but some of these ballistics builds, like a Jagers stock armament, should be totally doable with SHS (at least if they go easy on the medium lasers. I don't even think the ballistics need to be heat neutral on it, just able to go full monty for 20-30 seconds before having to back off.)

Add in sized hardpoints, and virtually every mech would have a chance to be usable.

This this and this.

With:
- slower weapon fire rate (for all weapons);
- fixed convergence;
- better heat dissipation implementation;
- sized hardpoints.

We get:
- no need of double armor/structure;
- better stock variants;
- more unique variants/chassis;
- valid single heat sinks;
- no need of ghost heat.

All problems of gameplay solved. (is that hard to understand this?)

[FireSlade]

The Panther is very doable even if they put an ERPPC in. You just would need double heat sinks and a maxed XL. At 97.2kph my Faux Adder is a blast to use (I just have to be very careful with my trigger and cannot fire over 72% heat) and can fire ERPPC 5 times before needing to cool off some. Even played the mech on Terra Therma (I refuse to use Cool Shot) and I did fine as long as I was careful and treated it as a direct fire support mech. So it is ******** that PGI thinks that the mech will not do well.

[Bishop Steiner]

Odanan, on 26 January 2014 - 09:07 AM, said:

This this and this.

With:
- slower weapon fire rate (for all weapons);
- fixed convergence;
- better heat dissipation implementation;
- sized hardpoints.

We get:
- no need of double armor/structure;
- better stock variants;
- more unique variants/chassis;
- valid single heat sinks;
- no need of ghost heat.

All problems of gameplay solved. (is that hard to understand this?)

INORITE?

It really is not that difficult to sort out, and since the armor and heat rates and weapon fire rates are just easily changed bits in t the code, big whoop. Is it possible the hard points would be a little more work? I reckon. Though having designed UI2.0 around that concept from the get, since most people who have really thought it through have been asking for SOMETHING like this (or John Matrix's crit system) since Closed Beta.

There is a lot I think PGI has done right, but it is often massively overshadowed by what they have gotten wrong, or taken the most headscratching convoluted steps to ADD layers instead of backing up and fixing the underlying problem in the first place. IDK if it's pride, or like many engineers, they just have trouble accepting simple can be better.

[stjobe]

FireSlade, on 26 January 2014 - 09:28 AM, said:

The Panther is very doable even if they put an ERPPC in. You just would need double heat sinks and a maxed XL. At 97.2kph my Faux Adder is a blast to use (I just have to be very careful with my trigger and cannot fire over 72% heat) and can fire ERPPC 5 times before needing to cool off some. Even played the mech on Terra Therma (I refuse to use Cool Shot) and I did fine as long as I was careful and treated it as a direct fire support mech. So it is ******** that PGI thinks that the mech will not do well.

As I noted above, I've spent quite some seat time in a Ghetto Panther PNT-10K (I love the Panther from TT and wanted to try to re-create it in MWO). Sure, it's 10 ton light, is too fast, and has too little armour, but it looks the part - something that neither of the two chicken-walker 35-tonners do - and it has the right loadout (ERPPC+ASRM-4 on a humanoid chassis).

It lacks punch to be a direct-fire support 'mech; even a light one. A single ERPPC simply isn't enough with our doubled armour; it'll take two to four hits to breach even light targets.

It also suffers from not having enough close-range punch, the ASRM-4 doesn't hit hard enough to scare off Jenners, Ravens, or even Commandos, not even when paired with the ERPPC (and then you'll overheat in 4-5 salvos).

The Panther would have a real hard time in MWO.

[FireSlade]

stjobe, on 26 January 2014 - 10:05 AM, said:

As I noted above, I've spent quite some seat time in a Ghetto Panther PNT-10K (I love the Panther from TT and wanted to try to re-create it in MWO). Sure, it's 10 ton light, is too fast, and has too little armour, but it looks the part - something that neither of the two chicken-walker 35-tonners do - and it has the right loadout (ERPPC+ASRM-4 on a humanoid chassis).

It lacks punch to be a direct-fire support 'mech; even a light one. A single ERPPC simply isn't enough with our doubled armour; it'll take two to four hits to breach even light targets.

It also suffers from not having enough close-range punch, the ASRM-4 doesn't hit hard enough to scare off Jenners, Ravens, or even Commandos, not even when paired with the ERPPC (and then you'll overheat in 4-5 salvos).

The Panther would have a real hard time in MWO.

Hard yes but not impossible. That PPC could become an ERLL or a LPL and the missile HP could be a SSRM, possibly more since lights have 4-5 HPs on them. Also I watched the other day while a ECM Spider with one ERPPC got 500 damage 3-4 kills and while being the last mech alive won the game (sad day for my team),

Edited by FireSlade, 26 January 2014 - 10:17 AM.

[Wieland]

With sized hardpoints problems like boating(except for mechs that are supposed to boat)or jumpsniping would have never come up.
In my eyes 2 sizes would not have been far enough.
I would have been for a 4 size system.
Small - Tag, SL, SPL, MG, SRM2, SSRM2, LRM5
Medium - ML, MPL, AC2, AC5, UAC5, SRM4, LRM10
Large - LL, LPL, AC10, LBX10, SRM6, LRM15
Huge - PPC, ERPPC, AC20, Gauss, LRM20
This way you could make underused and unattractive mechs competitive. The JR7-K for example has less hardpoints than the other 2. One of the hardpoints could be made larger to make him more attractive.

Edited by Wieland, 26 January 2014 - 10:25 AM.

[Wieland]

stjobe, on 25 January 2014 - 11:16 AM, said:

I so wish they'd made a 3025 game instead... Isn't there enough fighting going on in the Inner Sphere during the Succession Wars?

Then they could have had a big honking expansion a few years down the line with "Mechwarrior Online: The Clans!", and a few years after that "Mechwarrior Online: Word of Blake", and perhaps even "Mechwarrior Online: The Dark Ages".

But that all would depend on them getting "Mechwarrior Online: Succession Wars" up and running first...

I would have done it this way
Start 3025
-maybe with TT numbers(armor and weapon stats, MPBT:3025 did work and was fun)
-without mechlab
-without the 3 mechs to master 1 system
-a mech is general(available for all) or faction(normal availability to that faction, very high price on the blackmarket, capture the planet it is associated with and the price goes down to normal when you hold that planet long enough)
-with faction CW
-maybe RR

next additions
-merc units
-mechlab but with restrictions like the sized hardpoints
-research(offer some of your xp to your factions research in new weapons and mechs)

later on
-clans(balanced) and maybe a salvage system for IS(hard to get clantech)
-maybe Jihad and beyond

Edited by Wieland, 26 January 2014 - 11:07 AM.

[stjobe]

FireSlade, on 26 January 2014 - 10:15 AM, said:

Hard yes but not impossible. That PPC could become an ERLL or a LPL and the missile HP could be a SSRM, possibly more since lights have 4-5 HPs on them. Also I watched the other day while a ECM Spider with one ERPPC got 500 damage 3-4 kills and while being the last mech alive won the game (sad day for my team),

Could have been me, had it been half a year ago. I have a Mastered SDR-5D in my MechBay that I ran with ECM and an ERPPC as its only weapon, so I know what they can do. And while a single ERPPC is fine for an ECM-protected scavenger like the Spider, it's really not enough oomph for something billed as direct-fire support.

You're of course free to believe it would work, and personally I'd love to see the Panther in MWO; I just don't think it would be very viable. Too slow and too lightly armed (and also very under-cooled in its stock configuration). This is a pretty good approximation of what a MWO PNT-10K would be: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...e0a7d01337da695
Would you run that build?

As I said above, it would come with a 140 engine stock, so max engine rating 195 for 90 (99) kph tops. That's slower than some heavies. It would have two energy and two missile hardpoints (the 12A has 2E+1M, while the 10K2 has 1E+2M) unless PGI decides to tack on some extra. That's as few hardpoints as a Commando.

And another point that's not in favor of the PNT coming to MWO; the variants available aren't all that different:

PNT-9R (canonical variant): PPC+SRM4, 13 SHS, 6.5 tons armour, 4xJJ
PNT-8Z (which is extinct in 3050): LL, +1 SHS, +1 ton armour.
PNT-10K: ERPPC+ASRM-4, ES
PNT-10K2: ERPPC+2xSRM-4, ES, 12 DHS

The 9R would be DOA without a major overhaul, as would the 8Z - and just about any overhaul just turns them into 10Ks or 10K2s. The 10K would need DHS, and then it's a 10K2...

Edited by stjobe, 26 January 2014 - 12:27 PM.

[SgtMagor]

2445 was a good year

[stjobe]

SgtMagor, on 26 January 2014 - 12:27 PM, said:

2445 was a good year

Is that a face-painted Banshee with a ... pick-axe?

Talk about your after-market add-ons

[Bishop Steiner]

FireSlade, on 26 January 2014 - 10:15 AM, said:

Hard yes but not impossible. That PPC could become an ERLL or a LPL and the missile HP could be a SSRM, possibly more since lights have 4-5 HPs on them. Also I watched the other day while a ECM Spider with one ERPPC got 500 damage 3-4 kills and while being the last mech alive won the game (sad day for my team),

that ecm spider had 1) ECM, 2) borked hit registry and 3) massively higher speed than a Panther could. That is the ONLY reason they are viable.

[Bishop Steiner]

stjobe, on 26 January 2014 - 12:34 PM, said:

Is that a face-painted Banshee with a ... pick-axe?

Talk about your after-market add-ons

just wait til we see Captain Greg Oliphant's Hero Bansse from the Eridani Light Horse.


Just sayin

[SgtMagor]

yup yup Oliphant Hero. I would like to see this Clown in action.

[Odanan]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 January 2014 - 03:09 PM, said:

just wait til we see Captain Greg Oliphant's Hero Bansse from the Eridani Light Horse.

Jester ruined that one...

[FireSlade]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 January 2014 - 02:51 PM, said:

that ecm spider had 1) ECM, 2) borked hit registry and 3) massively higher speed than a Panther could. That is the ONLY reason they are viable.

True Spiders have an advantage out there and that one won the day for his team but 1 ERPPC is dangerous in the right hands especially since it does 10 damage 800 meters out where it can be tough to hit a 70kph mech, nevermind a 90+. Add to that, there are more than 2 HPs so you can swap out the 2 SRMs for streaks or the ERPPC for 2 ERLLs and now you are more deadly in the design. Besides people will ignore them anyways and a with today's focus on mass 90+kph can outrun anything but other lights. Granted the stock Panther will suck; but then again which stock mech does not suck?

[Bishop Steiner]

FireSlade, on 26 January 2014 - 04:50 PM, said:

True Spiders have an advantage out there and that one won the day for his team but 1 ERPPC is dangerous in the right hands especially since it does 10 damage 800 meters out where it can be tough to hit a 70kph mech, nevermind a 90+. Add to that, there are more than 2 HPs so you can swap out the 2 SRMs for streaks or the ERPPC for 2 ERLLs and now you are more deadly in the design. Besides people will ignore them anyways and a with today's focus on mass 90+kph can outrun anything but other lights. Granted the stock Panther will suck; but then again which stock mech does not suck?

I think you underestimate how much those other factors contributed to making that Spider effective. If you can't hide and snipe, it's a laughable weapon. If it couldn't run away it would have died early.

Sadly, gotta disagree. With the current mechlab, the Panther is DOA.

[Odanan]

The Panther could work, but needs to be tiny, Spider size.
And with thin legs hitboxes.
And maxed XL engine.
And be manned by someone very skilled.

It is hard mode but hey, I'm one of those who advocate for the UrbanMech...

Anyway, "it's not the Panther".

[MonkeyDCecil]

I am putting this here because you guys rock and all of the old weapon balance threads don't get bumped enough to get seen. And if I start a new thread I would get tons of trolls. Also I know this will never make it into game. I am just wanting y'alls opinions on this set of rules for MWO I came up with. I just wanted the opinions of people, who I think have good opinions on this game.

Weapon Balance for MWO using TT numbers. Well not comepletly TT numbers. I am using TT damage, heat, cooldown, slots, tons and ammo. For ranges and speed I am using MWO numbers.

Energy Weapons

Damage Heat Cooldown Range MaxRange Slots Tons Speed Duration

Er PPC 5 7.5 5s 810 1620 3 7 1,500 N/A
PPC 5 5 5s 90-540 1,080 3 7 1,500 N/A
Flamer .2/s .3/s N/A 120 120 1 1 100 1s
Er Large Laser .8/s 1.2/s N/A 675 1,350 2 5 N/A 1s
Larger Laser .8/s .8/s N/A 450 900 2 5 N/A 1s
Medium Laser .5/s .3/s N/A 270 540 1 1 N/A 1s
Small Laser .3/s .1/s N/A 140 280 1 .5 N/A 1s
LRG Pulse Laser .9/s 1/s N/A 350 600 2 7 N/A .3s
Med Pulse Laser .6/s .4/s N/A 230 460 1 2 N/A .3s
Sml Pulse Laser .3/s .2/s N/A 120 240 1 1 N/A .3s

For all pulse lasers and the Small laser, I extanded the ranges to make them more usefull.
For PPC and Er PPC I divided Damage, Heat, and Cooldown by 2 .
Lasers are continuous beams as long as you hold the fire button. With a minmuim of a 1 second beam Duration.
Pulse Lasers are like energy machine guns.

Ballistic

Damage Heat Cooldown Range MaxRange Slots Tons Speed Duration Ammo/t

AC/20 5 1.75 2.5s 810 1620 10 14 650 N/A 20
Gauss Rilfe 5 .34 .33s 660 1980 7 15 2000 N/A 24
AC/10 2 .6 2s 450 1350 7 12 950 N/A 50
LBX/10 2 .2 2s 540 1620 6 11 1100 N/A 50
AC/5 1 .2 2s 620 1700 4 8 1300 N/A 100
UAC/5 1 .6 2s 600 1800 6 8 650 N/A 100
AC/2 .2 .1 1s 720 2160 2 6 2000 N/A 450
Machine Gun .2 0 N/A 120 240 1 .5 100 .3s 2000

For AC/20 I divided Damage, Heat and Cooldown by 4 and multiplied ammo by 4.
For Gauss I divided Damage, Heat, and Cooldown by 3 and multiplied ammo by 3.
For AC/10 and LBX/10 I divided Damage, Heat, and Cooldown by 5 and multiplied ammo by 5. LBX/10 shot is .2 damage a pellet.
For AC/5 and UAC/5 I divided Damage, Heat, and Cooldown by 5 and multiplied ammo by 5. UAC/5 can still double fire and jam just like now.
For AC/2 I divided Damage, Heat, and Cooldown by 10 and multiplied ammo by 10.
For Machine Gun I divided Damage, Heat, and Cooldown by 10 and multiplied ammo by 10.

Missile

Damage Heat Cooldown Range MaxRange Slots Tons Speed Duration Ammot

LRM/20 5 1.5 2.5s 180-1000 1000 5 10 150 N/A 480
LRM/15 3.75 1.25 2.5s 180-1000 1000 3 7 150 N/A 480
LRM/10 2.5 1 2.5s 180-1000 1000 2 5 150 N/A 480
LRM/5 1.25 .5 2.5s 180-1000 1000 1 2 150 N/A 480
SRM/6 3 1 2.5s 270 270 2 3 300 N/A 400
SRM/4 2 .75 2.5s 270 270 1 2 300 N/A 400
SRM/2 1 .5 2.5s 270 270 1 1 300 N/A 400
SSRM/2 1 .5 2.5s 270 270 2 3 300 N/A 400

For all the missiles I just divided Damage, Heat, and Cooldown by 4 and multiplied ammo by 4. I also increased the speed of the LRMs.