20517 replies to this topic

[Strum Wealh]

cdlord, on 05 March 2014 - 08:48 AM, said:

OK, so I had said I'd like to have the Champion in-game and I do see it repeated several times. I would like PGI to make a modification though. In the Champion, all weapons are torso mounted making the arms useless wings. While I do like that as an option (read variant) I would like to see other variants make use of the arms.

All of the common pre-Tukayyid Champion variants (the CHP-1N, CHP-1N2, and CHP-2N) carry all of their weapons in the torso sections.

The Clanbuster variant, the CHP-3N, carries a Large Laser in each (non-actuated) arm (along with a LB 10-X in the RT, an Artemis-linked SRM-6 & two Medium Lasers in the LT, and two Small Lasers in the CT).

Additionally, the CHP-3P, which isn't available until 3061, caries two IS-built ER Medium Lasers in each (again, non-actuated) arm (along with an IS-built UAC/10 in the RT, an iNarc launcher in the LT, and a C3i system in the CT).

As an aside: the Clan-modded Champion C carries a single Clan ER Medium Laser in each arm (along with a Clan LB 10-X in the RT, an Artemis-linked Clan SRM-6 (yes, the non-Streak version) & two Clan Medium Pulse Lasers in the LT, one Clan Small Pulse Laser in the CT, and one Clan Small Pulse Laser in the Head), and the SLDF Royals variant (the CHP-1Nb) carries all of its weapons in the torso (Gauss Rifle in the RT, ER-PPC in the LT).

[CDLord HHGD]

Strum Wealh, on 05 March 2014 - 09:44 AM, said:

All of the common pre-Tukayyid Champion variants (the CHP-1N, CHP-1N2, and CHP-2N) carry all of their weapons in the torso sections.

The Clanbuster variant, the CHP-3N, carries a Large Laser in each (non-actuated) arm (along with a LB 10-X in the RT, an Artemis-linked SRM-6 & two Medium Lasers in the LT, and two Small Lasers in the CT).

Additionally, the CHP-3P, which isn't available until 3061, caries two IS-built ER Medium Lasers in each (again, non-actuated) arm (along with an IS-built UAC/10 in the RT, an iNarc launcher in the LT, and a C3i system in the CT).

As an aside: the Clan-modded Champion C carries a single Clan ER Medium Laser in each arm (along with a Clan LB 10-X in the RT, an Artemis-linked Clan SRM-6 (yes, the non-Streak version) & two Clan Medium Pulse Lasers in the LT, one Clan Small Pulse Laser in the CT, and one Clan Small Pulse Laser in the Head), and the SLDF Royals variant (the CHP-1Nb) carries all of its weapons in the torso (Gauss Rifle in the RT, ER-PPC in the LT).

Yeah, that's why I asked PGI to make some mods (use their creative license).

[Odanan]

Imagine the confusion of a Champion Champion mech...

Hmmm, I guess PGI never planed to add this one (and considering we have the Dragon, the Champion - which looks amazing - probably won't make it).

Edited by Odanan, 05 March 2014 - 11:30 AM.

[ManDaisy]

Go jump off a cliff you nay sayer! I say they make a founder's pheonix hero champion reinforcement saber champion!

[Strum Wealh]

cdlord, on 05 March 2014 - 09:50 AM, said:

Yeah, that's why I asked PGI to make some mods (use their creative license).

They might do that for a Hero 'Mech, or they might just hold off on the Champion until they can introduce the 3N variant in a hypothetical "Clanbuster Pack".
IMO, the odds of them doing that for a non-Hero Champion variant, however, are arguably so small as to be insignificant.

Also, we had this discussion last August, in this very thread.

Strum Wealh, on 30 August 2013 - 07:05 AM, said:

cdlord, on 30 August 2013 - 05:20 AM, said:

Really? All torso mounted weapons? Nothing in the wings?

That is what the online record sheets I knew of said. The post I self-quoted has links to the record sheets from BTE (which were correct and working at the time of posting), but the site was down last I checked (and the links may point to different 'Mechs if/when it comes back up). Though, the data for the CHP-1N and CHP-2N from Solaris7.com (derived from TRO 2750 and TRO 3025, respectively) say the same thing: the Champion's "wings" (aside from the Shoulder and Upper Arm Actuators) are empty.

Also, I proposed a hypothetical set of hardpoints for the CHP variants last August (and, again, in this very thread), in response to Oda's assertion that the CHPs would be too similar to the DRGs.

Strum Wealh, on 02 August 2013 - 06:39 PM, said:

The layout of the Champion is very different from that of the Dragon (two extra lasers, missiles in the LT rather than the CT, no arm weapons at all (ACs in the RT, lasers and missiles in the LT, and lasers in the CT)), and the hardpoint potentials are also very different (particularly with regard to missiles).

• CHP-1N readout
  
• CHP-1N2 readout
  
• CHP-2N readout

(The BTE links point to the named 'Mechs as of the time of this writing.)

Give one an extra ballistic hardpoint, give one an extra energy hardpoint, and give one an extra missile hardpoint; the combination of that, the distribution of hardpoints across the body (and thus unable to take agvantage of the greater firing arcs and faster tracking allowed by mounting weapons in actuated arms), and the geometry of the 'Mech (with both arms being empty and effectively vestigial... and given their usual shape in BT artwork, generally incapable of being used to effectively (if at all) shield the body) would keep the Champion sufficiently distinct from the Dragon.

Example CHP-1N:
LT: x2 ballistic (x1 LB 10-X)
CT: x2 energy (x2 Small Laser)
RT: x2 energy (x2 Medium Laser), x1 missile (x1 ASRM-6)
Standard Internal Structure, Standard 300 Engine, FF Armor (71% of maximum), Standard Heat Sinks

Example CHP-1N2:
LT: x1 ballistic (x1 LB 10-X)
CT: x2 energy (x2 Small Laser)
RT: x3 energy (x2 Medium Laser), x1 missile (x1 ASRM-6)
Standard Internal Structure, Standard 300 Engine, FF Armor (71% of maximum), Double Heat Sinks

Example CHP-2N:
LT: x1 ballistic (x1 AC/10)
CT: x2 energy (x2 Small Laser)
RT: x2 energy (x2 Medium Laser), x2 missile (x1 SRM-6)
Standard Internal Structure, Standard 300 Engine, Standard Armor (64% of maximum), Standard Heat Sinks

As described in the above examples, the Champion has the potential to carry a greater number of weapons (in different E/B/M ratios) than the Dragon, but has substantially less flexibility in bringing said weapons to bear (due to all of the weapons being torso-mounted).

[M0RG0TH]

Ok, seriously. Please give us the original marauder, because this machine of destruction is the epitome of mechwarrior! And no other design concepts!!!
And by the way, the Champion is ******* ugly shit. Sorry!

Edited by M0RG0TH, 05 March 2014 - 12:23 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

M0RG0TH, on 05 March 2014 - 12:21 PM, said:

Ok, seriously. Please give us the original marauder, because this machine of destruction is the epitome of mechwarrior! And no other design concepts!!!
And by the way, the Champion is ******* ugly shit. Sorry!

ok, seriously, please learn the issue and devs responses.

We will never see a Marauder in this game, unless Harmony Gold goes out of business. Not the Unseen, not a reseen. Russ has stated such, categorically. Sorry to smash your dreams, but better that than pining for the impossible.

[CDLord HHGD]

Strum Wealh, on 05 March 2014 - 11:53 AM, said:

Also, we had this discussion last August, in this very thread.

I've never been known as a quitter.

[Strum Wealh]

Bishop Steiner, on 05 March 2014 - 12:23 PM, said:

ok, seriously, please learn the issue and devs responses.

We will never see a Marauder in this game, unless Harmony Gold goes out of business. Not the Unseen, not a reseen. Russ has stated such, categorically. Sorry to smash your dreams, but better that than pining for the impossible.

*I continue to pine for the Marauder anyway, in spite of the well-known futility in doing so...*

[Bishop Steiner]

Strum Wealh, on 05 March 2014 - 12:34 PM, said:

*I continue to pine for the Marauder anyway, in spite of the well-known futility in doing so...*

i am pretty certain sometimes that the real answer is S&M........

[CDLord HHGD]

Strum Wealh, on 05 March 2014 - 12:34 PM, said:

*I continue to pine for the Marauder anyway, in spite of the well-known futility in doing so...*

We all do to some extent. M0rg0th just came in with a 'tude that had to be addressed. Despite some repetition and arguably bland design choices, Alex has managed to improve every mech brought into MWO (check out the original artwork for the Kintaro). I doubt the Champion (which isn't ugly) would look anything but awesome under Alex's care.

[Bishop Steiner]

cdlord, on 05 March 2014 - 12:39 PM, said:

We all do to some extent. M0rg0th just came in with a 'tude that had to be addressed. Despite some repetition and arguably bland design choices, Alex has managed to improve every mech brought into MWO (check out the original artwork for the Kintaro). I doubt the Champion (which isn't ugly) would look anything but awesome under Alex's care.

.......Improved from what, though? I would say that the Banshee actually IMO, aside from the cartoonish 3050 TRO, looks worse, in a large part because it looks nothing LIKE the Banshee. Trebuchet is arguable. Some were good, but made better in game (Victor and Orion, IMO) others were Great, and not so good in game though still better than anything that came before) and some, well, the surgery was extensive, but a success (Cicada, Stalker, etc).

While I am generally a fan of his stuff, the Banshee is by far the ugliest, least inspired, and least true to source material of any design so far (even counting reversing the legs on the stalker). Aka, even Alex might not be able to save the Champion. OK; might be being a little harsh, as the basic elements are largely there, but he took a tall thin mech, and squashed it down like one of the 7 dwarves. (kinda like he did the Summoner). And He coulda tried harder for the sunglasses.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 05 March 2014 - 12:46 PM.

[CDLord HHGD]

Bishop Steiner, on 05 March 2014 - 12:44 PM, said:

.......Improved from what, though? I would say that the Banshee actually IMO, aside from the cartoonish 3050 TRO, looks worse, in a large part because it looks nothing LIKE the Banshee. Trebuchet is arguable. Some were good, but made better in game (Victor and Orion, IMO) others were Great, and not so good in game though still better than anything that came before) and some, well, the surgery was extensive, but a success (Cicada, Stalker, etc).

While I am generally a fan of his stuff, the Banshee is by far the ugliest, least inspired, and least true to source material of any design so far (even counting reversing the legs on the stalker). Aka, even Alex might not be able to save the Champion.

I'm still willing to let him try though. Alex's win column is much larger than his "meh" column and imo here is nothing int he bad column (though yes, the Banshee is lackluster). 'Course we haven't seen any artworks for a while, only the in-game models....

[Bishop Steiner]

cdlord, on 05 March 2014 - 12:46 PM, said:

I'm still willing to let him try though. Alex's win column is much larger than his "meh" column and imo here is nothing int he bad column (though yes, the Banshee is lackluster). 'Course we haven't seen any artworks for a while, only the in-game models....

I agree, don't get me wrong.

Though I would say the pudgy, stumpy armed Jagermech was largely saved by the Modelers from the art (though Alex's cockpit area was superior, and the thing did get rather blocky), they totally improved the VTR and ON1, and sadly, even the Banshee, IMO is a step up from the doughboy artwork. And nothing can save the Wolverine (which IMO was a step back).

ShadowHawk I would call lackluster (too generic. thank god it fights better than it looks). Banshee I think just ended up bad. Griffin IMO is potentially the best looking Humanoid in a long time though, really love the old techy look to it.

[CDLord HHGD]

Bishop Steiner, on 05 March 2014 - 12:59 PM, said:

I agree, don't get me wrong.

Though I would say the pudgy, stumpy armed Jagermech was largely saved by the Modelers from the art (though Alex's cockpit area was superior, and the thing did get rather blocky), they totally improved the VTR and ON1, and sadly, even the Banshee, IMO is a step up from the doughboy artwork. And nothing can save the Wolverine (which IMO was a step back).

ShadowHawk I would call lackluster (too generic. thank god it fights better than it looks). Banshee I think just ended up bad. Griffin IMO is potentially the best looking Humanoid in a long time though, really love the old techy look to it.

That's one of the big draws for me, the good, the bad, the ugly, they are plausible. The absolute worst thing for MWO is to turn it into anime/gundam styling. Something you can imagine seeing on the battlefield giving and taking punishment. These things look like they can be real war machines and they feel like it.

[Bishop Steiner]

cdlord, on 05 March 2014 - 01:18 PM, said:

That's one of the big draws for me, the good, the bad, the ugly, they are plausible. The absolute worst thing for MWO is to turn it into anime/gundam styling. Something you can imagine seeing on the battlefield giving and taking punishment. These things look like they can be real war machines and they feel like it.

here is big and ugly, and yet true to the original concept.....

WIP

[CDLord HHGD]

Bishop Steiner, on 06 March 2014 - 05:08 AM, said:

here is big and ugly, and yet true to the original concept.....
WIP

Thought PGI was trying to come up with more cosmetic options (more than just camo spec) and perhaps the head is one of those... I like all your stuff too Bishop, you should be on the art team too!

[ssm]

Bishop Steiner, on 06 March 2014 - 05:08 AM, said:

here is big and ugly, and yet true to the original concept.....

WIP

You know I love your art, Bishop, but this Banshee above somewhat lacks one of two defining things about it (other being it's head) - it's bloody ancient. It's almost of same age as Mackie. And it should be reflected in the model.

Yours above looks incredible, but it's simply too stramlined.

Alex actually did ok with it - head is, of course, problematic, but when I see how everybody bounces between "Skull" and "Raybans" it's obvious that If he went fully either way a lot of people would be dissapointed anyway.

Only problem I have with it is silhuette - it's too wide in relation to it's height.

(I'll rush it into blender, maybe something can be done about it)

Edited by ssm, 06 March 2014 - 09:32 AM.

[Der BruzZzler von Wiesndoof]

Good job, Bishop! It looks really mean and it still has most of its iconic features!
Any official concept art from FD's take on the Banshee? The ingame implementation looks boring to me, but i still would like to see the official concept art.

[ssm]

I've done some preliminary re-scaling to make Alex's Banshee more like TRO art. It's extremely lazy mock-up, but shows that at least silhouette is workable: