65 replies to this topic

[Sandpit]

MischiefSC, on 20 December 2014 - 06:03 PM, said:

Except... they are not? There are some solid units in every faction right now.

The truly ironic part of his statement is the big purple bird next to his name...

[The Mechromancer]

kurita pilot says clans OP... is stonewalling smoke Jaguar.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

guys, why are you posting here?

OP is clearly trolling, in fact he said as much, he's not coming back, he's not interested in discussion, this was his vent thread... he vented... /thread.

[hashinshin]

Something I've learned after watching balance threads for decades is the more harsh the defense on a subject the more OP it is. With how harshly people defend clans and how vehement they are even as somebody who only plays this game sparingly and has no opinion on the matter it's clear to see that Clans are in fact OP. You guys wouldn't be resorting to increasingly personal attacks in thread after thread of people calling Clans OP without knowing in the back of your mind the truth of it and the desire to get people to stop discussing it because of fear of the consequences.

I think if PGI is even remotely a good company they'll have stat tracking and just based on this thread alone I suspect it's going to be a 60%+ win rate for Clans.

[Savage Wolf]

hashinshin, on 20 December 2014 - 07:27 PM, said:

Something I've learned after watching balance threads for decades is the more harsh the defense on a subject the more OP it is. With how harshly people defend clans and how vehement they are even as somebody who only plays this game sparingly and has no opinion on the matter it's clear to see that Clans are in fact OP. You guys wouldn't be resorting to increasingly personal attacks in thread after thread of people calling Clans OP without knowing in the back of your mind the truth of it and the desire to get people to stop discussing it because of fear of the consequences.

I think if PGI is even remotely a good company they'll have stat tracking and just based on this thread alone I suspect it's going to be a 60%+ win rate for Clans.

Then you should consider the fact that the number of threads about, how OP Innersphere mechs are, is pretty high too. So I guess they are both OP.

[hashinshin]

Savage Wolf, on 20 December 2014 - 07:29 PM, said:

Then you should consider the fact that the number of threads about, how OP Innersphere mechs are, is pretty high too. So I guess they are both OP.

It doesn't matter that both of them are "OP" it matters which is the MOST overpowered. You can say (and from reading this is where I draw my information) that the thunderbolt is OP, but is it MORE OP than timberwolves?

[Savage Wolf]

hashinshin, on 20 December 2014 - 07:48 PM, said:

It doesn't matter that both of them are "OP" it matters which is the MOST overpowered. You can say (and from reading this is where I draw my information) that the thunderbolt is OP, but is it MORE OP than timberwolves?

They are OP in different areas. And it's not the Thunderbolt alone, it's just the new kid on the OP block on the IS side.

So yes, they are simply both OP. At the same time. If that balances things out is a different thing altogether.

[hashinshin]

Savage Wolf, on 20 December 2014 - 07:52 PM, said:

They are OP in different areas. And it's not the Thunderbolt alone, it's just the new kid on the OP block on the IS side.

So yes, they are simply both OP. At the same time. If that balances things out is a different thing altogether.

No, that's not what balance is. In DotA "everything is OP compared to LoL" doesn't mean the game is balanced, it just expands the spectrum. Just because some IS mechs are OP compared to other IS mechs and some Clan mechs are OP compared to other Clan mechs doesn't mean both are balanced. And what if Clan mechs as a whole are, say, 10% better? And what if the Timberwolf is 30% better than the other Clan mechs? Even a 60% win rate for Clans means Clans are completely broken tier.

To put it in to perspective, in SC2 a faction having a 55% win rate is considered straight broken. In LoL there have only been 3-4 champions ever to reach the 60% win rate. If I told you Clans had a 60% win rate would that surprise you? If it would not legitimately surprise you then that's the issue.

[Alex Warden]

TBH, i haven´t seen many clan zergs actually succeed... if it was one of the better units out there,maybe (those who wipe the floor with your team no matter what tactic they use ^^) ... but an IS lightrush is far harder to stop than a clan zerg...

i would say it´s pretty balanced between successful and non-successful rushes so far... and i played with and against them both for clans and IS ...

Edited by Alex Warden, 20 December 2014 - 08:57 PM.

[Chem1cal]

I like how the response was "6 ddc and 6 King crab for two waves but 12 100 ton mechs is only possible for one wave. ..

[riverslq]

0/5 so far in CW
4 counter attacks
1 defense
always against clans
right.
this is fun pgi.
this is fun.

[Savage Wolf]

hashinshin, on 20 December 2014 - 08:07 PM, said:

No, that's not what balance is. In DotA "everything is OP compared to LoL" doesn't mean the game is balanced, it just expands the spectrum. Just because some IS mechs are OP compared to other IS mechs and some Clan mechs are OP compared to other Clan mechs doesn't mean both are balanced. And what if Clan mechs as a whole are, say, 10% better? And what if the Timberwolf is 30% better than the other Clan mechs? Even a 60% win rate for Clans means Clans are completely broken tier.

To put it in to perspective, in SC2 a faction having a 55% win rate is considered straight broken. In LoL there have only been 3-4 champions ever to reach the 60% win rate. If I told you Clans had a 60% win rate would that surprise you? If it would not legitimately surprise you then that's the issue.

I never said it was balance. Right now it's also between if clans as a whole is OP compared to IS and vice versa. If both sides have OP mechs that might actually be balance, but only between the two huge groups. Among IS mechs there should also be internal balance and this is probably not the case. Same with clans.
But only PGI has the numbers for that.

Chem1cal, on 20 December 2014 - 09:19 PM, said:

I like how the response was "6 ddc and 6 King crab for two waves but 12 100 ton mechs is only possible for one wave. ..

Actually, with Locusts, you can have two crabs in your deck.

Edited by Savage Wolf, 20 December 2014 - 09:21 PM.

[Chem1cal]

My bad savage, good call about the weight. My apologies.

[Anarcho]

Stop the cry please... the other night we got our ass kicked by 12 firestarters/spiders who jumped out the gate before we could even open it...

[MandyB]

Savage Wolf, on 20 December 2014 - 03:21 PM, said:

You do know that all the first 8 clan mechs are free now, don't you? If you really think they are that much better, then join them.

Personally I've tried being in a 12 man pug team with IS mechs that won against a 12 man premade clan team. Both as attacker and as a defender. It can be done.

^^^^ This comment emphasized over and over.

[Kyle Wright]

Taynak, on 20 December 2014 - 03:18 PM, said:

ok. i don't want to get into a long drawn out debate about this, i won't even respond or look at the post again afterward but i have to say this...

The Clans are far too OP... it only takes them 2 lances to come in and win. there is no chance against them.

they paid a bunch of money and now they just win all the time... yay.... thank you so much for that...

i thought you guys were trying to balance the game with the addition of the shield gens for the gun, but it only made the Zerg that much worse... there is no strategy to this...

and put this in reverse... if the innersphere mechs tried this strategy... which they do... they instantly die... and clans win...

im not the only one who is saying this but apparently the only one with the balls to tell you that you have an unbalanced game..

You do know right, that most of MWO upper level comp units went to clans. And typically I fine so many of the IS units lacking strategy and coordination.

Think on this: Dont stand right next to the OMEGA cannon to protect. Why that sounds dumb? you might ask. here is the reasoning, you dont want the enemy to get anywhere near the cannon if there are no more secondary generators that need to be destroyed.

Far to many people think turtling is the answer, the difference between most of the units out there and anyone that has comp experience is that comp teams/units have spent the last year+ combating turtling defense and typically they play very very aggressive and never let up. Vast majority of peoples woes stem from the lack of competitive knowledge to combat certain tactics.

[MischiefSC]

Kyle Wright, on 20 December 2014 - 11:50 PM, said:

You do know right, that most of MWO upper level comp units went to clans. And typically I fine so many of the IS units lacking strategy and coordination.

Think on this: Dont stand right next to the OMEGA cannon to protect. Why that sounds dumb? you might ask. here is the reasoning, you dont want the enemy to get anywhere near the cannon if there are no more secondary generators that need to be destroyed.

Far to many people think turtling is the answer, the difference between most of the units out there and anyone that has comp experience is that comp teams/units have spent the last year+ combating turtling defense and typically they play very very aggressive and never let up. Vast majority of peoples woes stem from the lack of competitive knowledge to combat certain tactics.

What needs to happen and what will, eventually, happen is that everyone needs to update their tactics and how they play. That takes time. About 21 days to change a habit.

We'll get there though. In the same way we've developed other 'tribal knowledge tactics' for every map in the game (where to rush, where to hold, etc. depending on the map) we'll do so for CW.

[Kyle Wright]

MischiefSC, on 21 December 2014 - 12:06 AM, said:

What needs to happen and what will, eventually, happen is that everyone needs to update their tactics and how they play. That takes time. About 21 days to change a habit.

We'll get there though. In the same way we've developed other 'tribal knowledge tactics' for every map in the game (where to rush, where to hold, etc. depending on the map) we'll do so for CW.

And ill full on admit, anymore maps like sulfur make **** rough on anyone defending. Some of the imbalance is result of map imbalance and a lot of it is as you said strategies. Right now in Clans you have Lords, Lords Splinter group called EmP, SJR, Sanguine Tigers, Mercstar (bouncing around), CK, as well as some huge casual units with 100+ members CWI and CGBI.

IS I have seen 228, and QQ have some serious wins. QQ was beating up on us STS guys and helped to take New Bergen. 228th was holding people down without a gate even being breached.

[MechaBattler]

Just fought another match counterattacking against clans on the snow map. Yeah, that's not fun. We lost 7 mechs trying to open the gate. Blue and yellow light show as far as the eye could see. The whole while the other team taunting. And we were comprised of a unit mostly. Just three pugs. I get the feeling they might not have been on coms or that they simply gave up on the idea of taking it. One guy kept joking "GG, close." Then it was the show everyone expects. The Clans raking us as we drop. Rushing to get in range only to get wrecked. It's not like there's any cover on our landing zone.

The last time I fought on this map. The clans just used multiple LRMs. We tried to push. But there was no cover that actually provided cover from LRMs.

[Deathlike]

The Mechromancer, on 20 December 2014 - 06:39 PM, said:

kurita pilot says clans OP... is stonewalling smoke Jaguar.

Fighting on Broccoli's Cluster**** (aka Brocchi's Cluster) finally ended.