78 replies to this topic

[Threat Doc]

Creovex, on 23 December 2014 - 05:36 AM, said:

If you HAD played it and the following games, then you wouldn't have come on the forums ranting about wanting your own faction for Mercs. You would KNOW where they are traditionally in the computer universe and realize at the most, you might get a logo down the road (doubtful though).

And, if you HAD read the books the computer games are based on, you would KNOW they are, traditionally, a business unto themselves and, by the dictionary definition of the word FACTION, they could be one unto themselves, each and every mercenary unit out there. Of course, if you're lexicon-challenged, it wouldn't make any difference, now, would it.

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You may know some material but you completely miss the basic concepts of CW here.

Oh, no I'm not... the basic concept is to get paid by taking on contracts. If you, simpleton, are fine with that, amoeba, then I'm very happy for you, mitochondria. I, however, am not.

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If you goal is to have the Mary Kay Wolf Faction... your out of luck ace... It isn't going to change and if you can't handle it, move on.

That was uncalled for, Neoprene, and you should really think before throwing stones, light Nitrile.

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And with your argument against the word faction... then what do you want? Territory control by Mercs... just simply doesn't fit their role in MWO.

Did I ever say anything about territory, half-wit? I want my unit to have its own identity, far beyond the tiny little tag we have, now. I'm not answering the rest, because I understand that's your view of yourself, sad as it is, and also where you actually are in your life. You are an awfully little person, aren't you, silver shield?

VanillaG, on 23 December 2014 - 10:01 AM, said:

At most and MCRB faction would provide an alternate tree for loyalty rewards that is not tied to a specific House. But at the end of the day the mercs will still need to accept contracts with the major Houses for specific time periods like they currently do.

First, it's MRBC. Second, you really need to read the Mercenary's Handbook and MH:3055. You guys simply don't know what could be available for you. But, then, if all most of you care about is the depth of the puddle your pet snails bathe in, then you wouldn't find interest in the depth of game I'm talking about playing.

[Raggedyman]

Daft question but how would more freelance Merc units actually work? You are already on brief contracts and as the houses aren't player controlled you don't really have anyone to negotiate with, so I'm not to clear (other than having 'MERCING for House X' rather than 'House X merc') you are asking for. Unless you want a merc/freebooter faction added to the game and trying to carve up it's own random bits of space, which could be kind of fun but would realistically get squished fast as the clans/houses mostly team up to beat the new kids down. Plus atm no-one is really that faction defined, it's just a hat you get to wear for a week or so as you wish.
Now, if they were to go hardcore and have faction really mean something for everyone then it could be cool and I'd been fine with some changes for mercs. But I also don't think it would work to great, essentially becoming an round-based FPS game mixed with EVE.

[verybad]

I could see Mercs as sub-factions that take contracts with real factions , but it makes no sense to have them as real factions. They aren't, and they would get their @$$3$ kicked so hard by a clan or Nation it's not even funny. The biggest merc corp of them all, Wolf Dragoons, got ripped to pieces and almost destroyed hen they decided to go up against the Word of Blake.

Mercs simply AREN'T factions. I could see a place for them in the game as interesting and important units to work for factions, and I'd like to see them in the game, but not owning planets, or perhaps one planet if they were super important (eg Wolf Dragoons before they got castrated.

SO yeah, being them into the game more interestingly than now, but not as multiplanet owners, simply doesn't work that way.

[C E Dwyer]

Kay Wolf, on 20 December 2014 - 07:10 PM, said:

If you don't understand the BattleTech universe, and you don't understand what it takes to build a unit from scratch, then you are incapable of understanding what it is I'm talking about. I've been around since 1984 in BattleTech, and my mercenary unit has existed since mid-late 1985 on the tabletop and late 1997 in the computer games played online. Of course, for those who've not put very much work into their units, who are just collections of players in the game, and little more, if anything, then you wouldn't understand the labor of love this has been. If your only concern for the game universe resides, at present, in the combat simulator of this game, then it's not possible for you to understand what I'm talking about; if you have little or no history in the game universe, then you just don't know, period.

I sold the game in shops when it was called battledroids, so according to your reasoning i know more about the Battletech Universe than you do, which is by the way as vacuous a statement as you made.

I can tell you though there are no merc groups that own planets in the Battletech universe, that are 'independent' nations, there are merc units that are allowed to administrate planets on behalf of the the faction who's territory it happens to be inside.

Sounds to me like your rant is all about your ego and wanting your own little empire and completely ignoring the thing you claim to know so much about the Battletech Universe

[verybad]

Yeah, basically Mercs that "Own" nations have had their leaders nobilized by a factions House Ruler and then run a planet.

They dont' take planets from Houses and own them themselves though. Cause they the House would swat them like a fly.

[3rdworld]

If you want to be known, go out there and tag some planets. -MS- has no presence on these forums at all really, but does anyone doubt that we dominate in CW? Nope, that is how you get known as a bad ass merc, kicking ass. Not talking about how awesome your website is, or how the game isn't letting you live out your fantasy of being the most powerful merc in the universe.


Having better unit management in game would be nice, but in reality the social tools in game are archaic at best.

Edited by 3rdworld, 23 December 2014 - 12:41 PM.

[Nightmare1]

Originally, PGI stated that there would be Clan Life, Loyalist Life, and Merc Life in the game. Clan and Loyalist would be about the same, but would be representative of the Clans and the IS, respectively. Players opting for either life would have the choice of factions within the respective cultures. Clans and Loyalists were supposed to have better access to Faction specific Mechs and equipment at cheaper prices, as well as an increased rate of Loyalty Points per Mission. As pilots progressed through the levels of loyalty in a "life," they would attain special ranks, status, and privileges. For example, an IS pilot aligned with the Lyrans may reach Donegal Guards status after a while with special perks.

Mercs were supposed to be unique and different though. Mercs had the option of working for all the Houses of the IS, rather than being restricted like the Loyalist Units. They earned Loyalty Points at a lower rate than Loyalist Units, but still had the same level of Mech and equipment access as the House Units for which they were employed. However, as a bonus, they had access to all IS House Mechs and Tech through the Black Market, though at higher prices.

For example, a Kurita Unit might earn 100 LP per match and have access to Dragons at 100 C-bills (small values for simplification), but no access to non-Kurita Tech. Merc Units working for House Kurita might earn 50 LP per match, have access to Dragons at 100 C-bills, but also have access to non-Kurita Tech.

Though Merc Pilots could not climb the ladder like IS Units (see previous, Donegal Guards example), they could eventually gain Wolf's Dragoons Status if they earned enough LP for each of the IS Houses. Merc Units could possess planets if they captured them, though they would not be able to hold them easily since they are prone to House jumping. Once Dragoons status is obtained, there were supposed to be significant gameplay and economic benefits.

Individual planets were also supposed to have benefits to owning them, similarly to how Planetside 2 has bonuses for owning certain territories. In short, if Davions own Planet X, then they can build Victors at a reduced cost, while if Steiner captures Planet X, they suddenly gain access to Victors (though at a higher cost since it isn't a Steiner Tech).

...At least...this is what was stated in the Launch Video away back when. It's pretty obvious that things have changed since then. Frankly, I still think the Launch Video description makes for a much more interesting CW.

The above is a rough example written off the top of my head, so there may be some errors. For example, since Steiner and Davion are similar and were, at one point, the Federate Suns Empire, both may already share Victor Tech. I was just throwing an example on the table. If anyone sees such errors, feel free to correct them, but please don't let them distract you from the purpose of my post.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Kay Wolf, on 22 December 2014 - 01:45 PM, said:

Yeah, you should probably re-read, again. You didn't pick up on the nuances. Most people don't read well enough to do so, so I don't blame you.

There will be logistics in the game... ahh, who am I foolin'... a lot has been said as to what we're going to get, from Dev Blog 0 on, and since you folkers can't seem to keep from bashing a topic I hold near and dear to my heart, what's the fracking point, right?

I guess it's another loss to people who don't care about BattleTech, huh? This game continues to wade in the kiddy pool, I'm afraid, and I may have to find something else with the depth of gameplay that I actually want.

First of all Kay, you should get off your high ******* horse when you are trying to make a point here. It just makes you look petty man, and while I understand where you are coming from, your tone and approach here completely turns anyone off from considering what you have to say.

Secondly, what is it you want that PGI is not yet providing that is relevant to the current build of the game?

Yes, they have mentioned logistics and other factors, but until those are introduced, your childish venting here, is immaterial.
What is it you are DEMANDING of PGI atm that they can actually change that fits within the current gameplay parameters.

We get it. You are a lore-hound. So are many of us. You do not demonstrably own that title over anyone else. So what is it they are not actually providing that you want, that they can implement atm?

Or do you just want to keep splitting hairs over contracts versus ownership and the rest of this tripe?

3rdworld set you straight mate...perform at a high level, earn the reputation deservedly so. Regardless of who you contract with.

[Kookieslayer]

You do realise that this is just phase 1 of CW and that it's going to evolve a lot more in the coming years right? You also have to realise that for that to happen PGI needs to make money. Creating a way for units to manage their logistic may be interesting for some, but ultimately it's not something that the majority of players will want, or will have access to.

The current system is certainly not complete. A way to have your units logo in-game instead of the faction's logo is something that would be interesting, that I agree. Remember there's also the Decal system coming in down the line. Units are already well represented in CW when you select planets, you can already show how bad-ass your unit is that way.

If what you want is a complete other game inside, or linked to, Mechwarrior, don't expect it to happen any-time soon. You have to realise that this game's not THAT successful. There is not then's of millions of players. Resources for development are limited. That's why goal's that were set 4 years ago may not be realised in the same way or at all. You can't expect niche systems and features to be the priority for a company like PGI.

[Rogue Jedi]

just read this thread and the replies to date, it seems like what Kay Wolf is requesting is for PGI to:
1) institute an interdependent Merc faction for the purpose of a loyalty point tree only (no territory except perhaps Outreach, and unable to take planets unless purchasing/being awarded a planet for outstanding service)

this seems reasonable, although the M.R.B.C was not created for another 2 years game time, Comstar's M.R.B. is relevant in timeline.

2) for PGI to devote server space to give every Merc Corp there own home (website), and unique player designed faction badges for each Merc Corp

with the exception of the badges this can be done without any work in game, using third party software,

most units already have a website, so there is no need for PGI to provide this.

as for the badges for forum and end of match screens this should not be too much trouble but Mech Decals would be a lot of work to make them fit on all current and future Mechs, if this happens it would almost have to be an expensive (as in hundreds or thousands of dollars) real money item or perhaps something costing a LOT (billions) of cbills from the unit coffers to cover the art departments time.


3) add more flavor to Mercenary life, as opposed to a house unit.

this has been poorly defined, so without more specific information I cannot comment on the idea.


am I correct?
If not can you (Kay Wolf) further elaborate on what you want, rather than just making vague statements this would make the debate much easier.

no offense intended but I am trying to get my head around your points, they just are not that clear to me.

Edited by Rogue Jedi, 23 December 2014 - 01:52 PM.

[SpeedingBus]

Well there goes my dreams of being in Wolf Dragoons... go play Mechwarrior 4 Mercenaries to see how a true mercenary company functions. We currently aren't mercenaries right now because there is ZERO incentive to switch sides also since when did merc units get to own multiple planets? that alone indicates PGI absolute ignorance of what a merc unit is.

PS Mechwarrior 2 mercs is also a great merc game but good luck get it running!

Edited by SpeedingBus, 23 December 2014 - 02:15 PM.

[Rogue Jedi]

SpeedingBus, on 23 December 2014 - 02:13 PM, said:

Well there goes my dreams of being in Wolf Dragoons... go play Mechwarrior 4 Mercenaries to see how a true mercenary company functions. We currently aren't mercenaries right now because there is ZERO incentive to switch sides also since when did merc units get to own multiple planets? that alone indicates PGI absolute ignorance of what a merc unit is.

PS Mechwarrior 2 mercs is also a great merc game but good luck get it running!

the incentive to switch sides is that Liao, Smoke Jaguar and Jade Falcon are currently paying better than anyone else, that is all the incentive a Merc needs to switch sides, unless that Merc is under contract to one of the other factions, and no Merc would break a contract, just look at the Wolf Dragoon vs House Kurita incidents shortly before the 4th succession war.

also no Merc corp currently owns a planet, they are just getting recognition for playing a significant part in taking/holding a planet, think along the lines of a hero having a place, holiday or item named after them

[VanillaG]

Kay Wolf, on 23 December 2014 - 10:34 AM, said:

First, it's MRBC. Second, you really need to read the Mercenary's Handbook and MH:3055. You guys simply don't know what could be available for you. But, then, if all most of you care about is the depth of the puddle your pet snails bathe in, then you wouldn't find interest in the depth of game I'm talking about playing.

I found a copy of the MH:3055 and most of the concepts are based on one player controlling a unit made up of multiple mechs/vehicles/platoons which is the polar opposite of MWO gameplay. The main aspects of the logistics deal around ensuring that you have a support structure that can sustain your unit with all of the rewards flowing through the unit and then down to the individual player. The way that MWO is structured is that the individual players receive all of the rewards so most of the concepts in that book would not apply. Most of the ideas are great if you are a unit commander but if you just a member of the unit those ideas are pretty bad since some other person is dictating what you get paid and ultimately controls your progression in the game the way it stands right now.

The only way to get a true representation of the MH:3055 is build an entirely new game so the focus can be on the logistics side of the equation. The game that you want would be some type of Clash of Clans/MechCommander hybrid that is tied into the persistent MWO universe. You would create your base(i.e logistics) that would allow you create and grow your unit. You could then take contracts that could be either PvE for low pay or PvP for higher pay and the results of the contracts would affect CW.

Edited by VanillaG, 23 December 2014 - 03:36 PM.

[kf envy]

Desolator, on 22 December 2014 - 06:55 PM, said:

While I think some of the things Kay is asking for or expecting is a bit out of the question, there are however some things that they should implement that I think would really help Mercs feel like they still are Mercs.

1, Upload and display custom Merc Unit badges, instead of displaying the House you are working for. Mercs are still their own units regardless if they are under contract with another party or not. This is why they don't fly House colors.

2. Instead of earning Reputation with the House/Clan you contract with, Mercs get their own unique Reputation Tree to gain points for with the rewards to go with those.
This would allow for a Merc unit to realistically reach Rank 20 with their faction/unit. I mean if I am going to play as Steiner or Ghost Bear enough to hit Rank 20, I might as well have just pledged to them permenatly.


These two things, I think would go a long way in maintaining the feel of a Merc Unit. There could even be one for Lone Wolves as well.
This is where PGI could really have fun with the rewards they give out.

oh so many people would abuse that for the rank cbills. i think PGI would have to limit it to the big Mercs corps that our in Lore for the faction aspect of it. otherwise people our just going to keep making throw away Merc corps an farm the Rank Cbills.


also the Merc units should have to make an contract with fraction/Units of ware they wish to play so lets say if no GB units want to pay Merc then no Merc can drop in GBs att/def drops on there side.

Edited by kf envy, 23 December 2014 - 03:06 PM.

[Kyrie]

@Kay Wolf,

I would not discount PGI from gradually evolving MWO's CW to something that actually defines Unit's as real entities in the game. To begin with, Units have a treasury that will accumulate c-bills to be used later on in CW. This is a fairly important cornerstone that PGI can build on for us to have a more in-depth experience as CW evolves.

The simple fact of a treasury, and a few nuggets of info Paul has dribbled out previously suggest:

1) Merc Units will have assets at some point (Logistics) such as owning DropShips and setting up defenses in planets.
2) There is, at present, no direct monetization of CW; only indirect encouragement of people essentially earning less per hour playing CW than they would in regular matches. This would theoretically encourage more premium time and so on, but this is fairly indirect. The logical thing for PGI to do is keep introducing c-bill sinks in CW to further define Units as entities in the game and encourage members to invest in their Units.
3) As Logistics are added, refining the Contract concept is quite possible so that Units negotiate various terms, up to an including perhaps having an "HQ planet" to plant their flag if they have sufficiently high loyalty rating in a Faction.

[MATRAKA14]

Pgi hates mercs, the forum logo is not in the game, if you are a merc you have the lone wolf logo ingame.

[verybad]

MATRAKA14, on 23 December 2014 - 04:32 PM, said:

Pgi hates mercs, the forum logo is not in the game, if you are a merc you have the lone wolf logo ingame.

Cause yeah, making a million logos for the forum would be easy.

PGI doesn't hate mercs, that's an incredibly moronic unthoughtful thing to say. They simply have limited labor capabilities and have to do what they can as they can. Mercs aren't politic factions in the battletech universe, they're military tools. Big difference in terms of overall importance.

[Threat Doc]

Nightmare1, on 23 December 2014 - 12:57 PM, said:

Originally, PGI stated that there would be Clan Life, Loyalist Life, and Merc Life in the game.


...At least...this is what was stated in the Launch Video away back when. It's pretty obvious that things have changed since then. Frankly, I still think the Launch Video description makes for a much more interesting CW.

Nightmare, you would be a good friend; thank you for outlining all of this, as it's the truth of what was going to be.

Rogue Jedi, on 23 December 2014 - 01:50 PM, said:

just read this thread and the replies to date, it seems like what Kay Wolf is requesting is for PGI to:
1) institute an interdependent Merc faction for the purpose of a loyalty point tree only (no territory except perhaps Outreach, and unable to take planets unless purchasing/being awarded a planet for outstanding service)

this seems reasonable, although the M.R.B.C was not created for another 2 years game time, Comstar's M.R.B. is relevant in timeline.

Yeah, I could go for this.

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2) for PGI to devote server space to give every Merc Corp there own home (website), and unique player designed faction badges for each Merc Corp

with the exception of the badges this can be done without any work in game, using third party software,

most units already have a website, so there is no need for PGI to provide this.

No no... There should be no reason for this. As you pointed out, there are plenty of third-party things, like Enjin, to take care of that.

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as for the badges for forum and end of match screens this should not be too much trouble but Mech Decals would be a lot of work to make them fit on all current and future Mechs, if this happens it would almost have to be an expensive (as in hundreds or thousands of dollars) real money item or perhaps something costing a LOT (billions) of cbills from the unit coffers to cover the art departments time.

Yes, but even Russ said this was coming, soon^TM. So, this tells me it's something already in testing.

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3) add more flavor to Mercenary life, as opposed to a house unit.

this has been poorly defined, so without more specific information I cannot comment on the idea.

It was not poorly defined. Read Nightmare1's post above your own, where he outlines very well what we were told was coming.

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If not can you (Kay Wolf) further elaborate on what you want, rather than just making vague statements this would make the debate much easier.

Rogue... there are two or three posts written in this thread already that outline what I'm looking for. Everyone else wants to be a smartass, obtuse, or all "I know more than anyone else", misconstruing everything I say, and/or being all negative, "Oh, this won't happen, you're stuck with what you've got, now, there's nothing else coming!" Not good enough, not by half.

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no offense intended but I am trying to get my head around your points, they just are not that clear to me.

http://mwomercs.com/...re-association/ (esp. Post #6) , and that's just the beginning. From what I was able to glean from the Town Hall Meeting, all of this is at a stop.

VanillaG, on 23 December 2014 - 02:44 PM, said:

The main aspects of the logistics deal around ensuring that you have a support structure that can sustain your unit with all of the rewards flowing through the unit and then down to the individual player. The way that MWO is structured is that the individual players receive all of the rewards so most of the concepts in that book would not apply. Most of the ideas are great if you are a unit commander but if you just a member of the unit those ideas are pretty bad since some other person is dictating what you get paid and ultimately controls your progression in the game the way it stands right now.

Do you control what you get paid at work? Or, do you trust your boss to deal with your real-world money, whether you have a choice or not?

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The only way to get a true representation of the MH:3055 is build an entirely new game so the focus can be on the logistics side of the equation.

Nonsense. The structure for this is already in the game.

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The game that you want would be some type of Clash of Clans/MechCommander hybrid that is tied into the persistent MWO universe. You would create your base(i.e logistics) that would allow you create and grow your unit. You could then take contracts that could be either PvE for low pay or PvP for higher pay and the results of the contracts would affect CW.

All of that sounds wonderful to me, though I was really only thinking of creating and growing the unit.

What I would like to see is a database, of sorts, where all units could put in information, such as the type of unit they are, whether they're MilSim or totally laid back, have a Religious population, if there are any special rules to the unit and, of course, things like the name, general faction, etc. of the unit. I don't want a complete web site on the PGI servers, and never have, and though it would be nice to have, it's unnecessary; however, having an actual presence would be nice. Then, people searching for a unit could select from similar criteria, have results returned all of the input of the unit commander, and they could select to join a unit from there, sending a request to join straight from this server to the unit commander.

Of course, it would be better if there were missions better developed for specialization, as well, and not just the same kill or be killed hullabaloo we've been playing since mid-2012.

Kyrie, on 23 December 2014 - 03:47 PM, said:

I would not discount PGI from gradually evolving MWO's CW to something that actually defines Unit's as real entities in the game. To begin with, Units have a treasury that will accumulate c-bills to be used later on in CW. This is a fairly important cornerstone that PGI can build on for us to have a more in-depth experience as CW evolves.

Kyrie, this is a surprising change, but a welcome one, to be sure. Thank you for your hopefulness, and for getting what I'm saying, though this goes beyond coffers.

Oh, and Cathy, just because you sold it, does that mean you read it?

[Kyrie]

@Kay Wolf,

Well, I understand your point. But I also take comfort in what Russ posted on Dec. 11th as the official CW announcement, he makes a specific reference to MPBT acknowledging that CW 1.0 lacks the depth of MPBT, but does not rule out the possibility of evolving towards that as a possibility... if we, the playing and paying community actually want this to happen.

Regarding the specific point of Unit coffers, I view it as a very encouraging small step towards building real merc units. If PGI were to borrow from MPBT, one easy solution is to have "shares" setup -- each member of the unit is assigned a percentage that becomes his or her personal earnings for each CW mission with the rest going right into the Unit coffers. This could then be the key to funding the logistical side of daily operations, with special contributions to fund big capital expenditures (such as new dropships or whatever).

The main point is that by introducing unit coffers, it is an implicit commitment to add more to the whole Unit concept than we see at present. What I heard in the Town Hall does not rule anything out, what Russ was mainly concerned about is making clear that there is going to be a delay in getting complex features in. In essence Russ is making sure we are managing our expectations. He has laid out the fact that the stuff that is in the current development pipeline has dev time pretty much committed between now and possibly Q2/2015.

What we have now is "CW 1.0". I would expect before mid-2015 to see a big chunk of "2.0" with their first pass at logistics. Depending on how that goes, CW 3.0 might get on the drawing board for perhaps Q1/2016 is my uninformed conjecture. And perhaps we'll have some real depth in 3.0 that I have been dreaming about since EGA-MPBT died and the EA MPBT project was canceled...

Edited by Kyrie, 24 December 2014 - 11:32 AM.

[Nightmare1]

Kay Wolf, on 24 December 2014 - 10:53 AM, said:

Nightmare, you would be a good friend; thank you for outlining all of this, as it's the truth of what was going to be.

Thanks! By the way, I think this is the vid: