162 replies to this topic

[Escef]

Kampfer, on 21 December 2014 - 02:21 PM, said:

People don't play lights because no matter how good you are someone is just going to legged by a single lucky shot and very few lights have the firepower to take down something larger than them and still have enough armor to do it a second time.

You can get 5 medium lasers on a Locust 3M or 1E. You can get 2xML and 2xSRM4 on a Commando 1D or 3A. I've seen LL and PPC based Spiders to evil things. The Ember is consider the best of the FS9s, probably the best light, yet all the other FS9s have at least 6 energy hardpoints. I've seen Jenner shred people. Ravens? Ok, ECM sniper, ECM skirmisher, Huginn SRM4s fire insanely fast...

You play a light right and you can savage people.

[The Ratfink]

I think that there needs to be more incentive to play lights and mediums, Queue is regularly 5% lights and 15% medium which is not good for game balance.

The simple thing is you earn a lot more XP and C-Bills in a heavy or assault, It is very easy to level those weight classes. Most lights other than FS and Raven 3L take forever and you wont feel like you are having any good games so will hate them.

I think a sliding scale for rewards would help as a bit of social engineering. Something like this

130% Lights
115% Mediums
90% Heavies
100% Assaults

The other thing that could help would be sensor range. Make lights have a longer sensor range as they are specialist scouts. Make heavies and assaults require a scout to see further as they have shorter sensor range and would require command console / bap / sensor range module to get it up to today's levels which is not too bad as they have the tonnage to do that.

[The Amazing Atomic Spaniel]

The problem is not with lights themselves. The problem is that small maps, quick games and a damage-based xp/cbill system don't give them anything useful to do - and forces them to fight bigger mechs that they can't easily beat.

Add on the fact that playing one is not much fun at the low FPS that MWO delivers and it's not surprising that no one wants to play one outside of OP oddities like the Firestarters.

[Kampfer]

This thread seems to be over flowing with pilots who don't pilot lights claiming lights are fine because this one time a light tore them up when they were completely isolated form their team

[F4T 4L]

Escef, on 21 December 2014 - 11:50 PM, said:

The Ember is consider the best of the FS9s, probably the best light, yet all the other FS9s have at least 6 energy hardpoints.

I doubt this is still true, for most folk, since the spl quirks went in for non-hero fs9's.

Just saying.

Edited by F4T 4L, 22 December 2014 - 03:41 AM.

[Darian DelFord]

F4T 4L, on 22 December 2014 - 03:40 AM, said:

I doubt this is still true, for most folk, since the spl quirks went in for non-hero fs9's.

Just saying.

You are correct the A variant I would say is top dog for the moment, however the one with MPL's (Can't remember variant" is definately a close second. However the 8 still has to be within 200 meters

[ShadowWolf Kell]

Darian DelFord, on 22 December 2014 - 04:31 AM, said:

You are correct the A variant I would say is top dog for the moment, however the one with MPL's (Can't remember variant" is definately a close second. However the 8 still has to be within 200 meters

That would be the FS9-S which is extremely fun since quirk pass #2.

[MeiSooHaityu]

I hate to say this, but light pilots have to be more skilled when it comes to battlefield awareness. That, combined with a higher risk of critical damage, is why the take rate is so low.

I also think that is why lights can be so annoying too. Yes of course the lag shield helps immensely, but a light pilot that knows where the enemy is and when to push is extremely dangerous.

Sure that enemy Dire Wolf is brutal, but he is attacking your team mate in a Timber Wolf. He is ignoring you in your Raven as you pump SRMs and MLasers into his back. His armor gets stripped in one volley, the next turns his internals yellow...then orange. All it takes is a good strike by the TW to the front armor and the Dire crumbles.

Not to mention chasing a wounded enemy down (although don't let him lure you back to his line).

Thing is, when piloting a light, I need to keep all this kind of crap in mind and be very mindful of how to play the mech. If I screw up, I may be crit quickly and pretty much boned for the rest of the match.

If I'm in a heavy or ughhh an assault, it is more walk with team, see enemy, point weapons and click away. Being in a bigger mech is easier and more straight forward. Being in a light is....work.

TL; DR
I think that overall sums up why the light queue is so low. Do you feel like being sneeky mechanized ninja who has to carefully plot his battle field engagement, or a heavier mech that moves with the pack and fires at whichever enemy exposes his position. One is a lot easier and safer than the other.

[MeiSooHaityu]

P.S. Stop playing Heavies so much! I want to play my heavies more without waiting so long for a match. If You don't want to play lights, then play more...ugh...assaults. I do love playing Lights and Mediums, but I could use a change of pace.

[Mindwipe]

If CW gains traction with the player base we might see a little more attention paid to the lights due to the weight limits. If captain slowboat wants his 100 tons of death, he's going to have to pack a light in there as well normally. Assuming they don't just constantly throw the light away they're going to have to learn how to play it and will quickly find out that lights aren't really all that they thought.

I can see CW driving some light Mech changes, and if they're truly OP we'll find out in the next few months. That could be said about mediums as well since you see so many more of them in CW.

This is from the IS view though. Clan lights are garbage, ECM carriers at best. While they can be fun to play it doesn't change the fact that the Clan mediums do most of what the lights do at the same speed. Clans have a whole host of issues that need to be looked at but it's mostly buried under the sheer awesomeness of the SC and TW.

[Angel of Annihilation]

No they absolutely do not need love.

Honestly, last night in CW, SA a Steiner Unit, proved exactly why lights don't need love.

They were on defend and jumped the gate in a preemptive attack using Firestarters, Jenners and Ravens, catching our unit of mostly OPed (according to the peanut gallery anyway) Timber Wolves, and proceeded to kill the entire first wave of our attacker, all 12 of us, without a single loss.

We were deathballed right at the closed gate so it wasn't even a situation where we were strung out and they picked us off one by one, no a bunch of these supposedly weak lights took out roughly 6 Timber Wolfs, 2 Hellbringers. 3 Stormcrows and a Kit Fox without a single loss.

Lights, especially IS lights, are hands down the absolute most powerful mech in the game if used properly however people just don't enjoy the playstyle they require. This is why we have a low population, not because they are weak. All I can say is thank god people don't like them or else we would be overrun by the little boogers.

Oh and before you say it, we were not Noobs nor do we need to L2P. Lights are just that good.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 22 December 2014 - 07:32 AM.

[Kampfer]

Viktor Drake, on 22 December 2014 - 07:30 AM, said:

No they absolutely do not need love.

Honestly, last night in CW, SA a Steiner Unit, proved exactly why lights don't need love.

They were on defend and jumped the gate in a preemptive attack using Firestarters, Jenners and Ravens, catching our unit of mostly OPed (according to the peanut gallery anyway) Timber Wolves, and proceeded to kill the entire first wave of our attacker, all 12 of us, without a single loss.

We were deathballed right at the closed gate so it wasn't even a situation where we were strung out and they picked us off one by one, no a bunch of these supposedly weak lights took out roughly 6 Timber Wolfs, 2 Hellbringers. 3 Stormcrows and a Kit Fox without a single loss.

Lights, especially IS lights, are hands down the absolute most powerful mech in the game if used properly however people just don't enjoy the playstyle they require. This is why we have a low population, not because they are weak. All I can say is thank god people don't like them or else we would be overrun by the little boogers.

Oh and before you say it, we were not Noobs nor do we need to L2P. Lights are just that good.

So this ONE time a premade Unit who played together regularly launched a coordinated attack on you and defeated you.

Great story bro, but this represents .00000000000000000001% of all the games ever played.

[Aethon]

Another idea would be to grant xp/c-bill bonuses for piloting lights well, to give people another reason to use them, perhaps an xp/c-bill income bonus for damaging larger targets, as well as better spotting/scouting bonuses.

Honestly, though, regardless of how hard they were to hit on tabletop, light mechs never have been and never should be on even footing with heavies and assaults in a 1v1 fight; going up against one in a light mech, given equal skill and proper builds, *should* be suicide.

EDIT: To clarify, they never have been, when the games were working properly, and lag-shields were not in effect.

Edited by Aethon, 22 December 2014 - 07:43 AM.

[nehebkau]

Lights, in general, do need a buff of some kind -- honestly that should be a buff to their role in game rather than making them more powerful. As it stands, there is really no role that a light mech fills that a heavier mech can't do as well.

Added to this, some of the nerfs that PGI have made have really injured lights.

Jump jets to inhibit pop tarting-- changed to affect heavy mech pop-tarting -- really hurt light mech maneuverability.

Fall damage to inhibit pop-tarting-- light mechs now get leg damage going down hills at speed if they hit a rock or bump

Increased laser duration to combat assault heavy laser boating -- light mechs are exposed for longer if they try to snipe

BAP increase - while stopping DDC an Helbringer invisibility walls -- made ECM lights nearly pointless.

With SSRM6 boats 1-shotting light mechs, no min distance clan LRMs, dual gauss/ppc rigs life for lights is hard.

And yes, the firestarter with 8 small pules lasers and its tight hitboxes is a kick-ass mech but nearly every other light requires lots of skill to reach even mediocre performance.

And here is the worst part, if you are in a light and start to get good, i.e. get a decent ELO, PGI expects you to be able to carry the team as well as someone with a decent ELO who is in a DWF or Timber.\

Should PGI implement knockdowns -- you will see the light population evaporate.

Pilotasso, on 21 December 2014 - 02:56 PM, said:

Lights are for support not for brawling. Too much time enjoying lagshield heh?

Trouble is that there is NO support role that a light could fill that a medium can't do just as well or better.

Edited by nehebkau, 22 December 2014 - 08:28 AM.

[Escef]

nehebkau, on 22 December 2014 - 08:04 AM, said:

With SSRM6 boats 1-shotting light mechs,...

Really? That's news to me, and I've run a Streak36 Mad Dog. I mean, 36 missiles, randomly assigned to 8 hit locations, means 4 to 5 missiles per location, at 2 damage per missile, or a total of 8 or 10 damage (on average) per hit location. With max armor, a fresh Commando or Locust can tank that, usually without loosing limbs. FS9s and JR7s (if fresh) can usually tank 2 salvos like that.

Clan LRMs with no minimum range? Boo-hoo, they do next to no damage under 90 meters.

Dual Gauss/PPC set ups? Hey, those hurt everyone, take a number and get in line.

You don't know what you're talking about.

[girl on fire]

Viktor Drake, on 22 December 2014 - 07:30 AM, said:

They were on defend and jumped the gate in a preemptive attack using Firestarters, Jenners and Ravens, catching our unit of mostly OPed (according to the peanut gallery anyway) Timber Wolves, and proceeded to kill the entire first wave of our attacker, all 12 of us, without a single loss.

*files that one under B, B for bullshit*

Either you were on literally the worst team ever or this anecdote is full of hyperbole.

[Aethon]

nehebkau, on 22 December 2014 - 08:04 AM, said:

Fall damage to inhibit pop-tarting-- light mechs now get leg damage going down hills at speed if they hit a rock or bump

I would be totally cool with the removal of this system for lights, or at least the ability to fall from VASTLY greater heights before incurring leg damage. Aerial brawlers, like the Spider used to be in capable hands, would have much greater survivability while scouting/spotting, without increasing their offensive capabilities too much.

[topgun505]

Allow arty and airstrikes (and maybe UAVs) to be able to be carried by only lights and you will probably see the light que double in size or more.

But I doubt PGI would ever do that.

Lights are a mixed bag. FSR and Spiders are still very hard to hit from the waist up. Meanwhile the Jenner is powerful but is nothing but a roving CT. The ML doesn't really have very effective hardpoints. The Locust is devilishly hard to pull off using effectively (but it can be done).

But how to take the less powerful lights and give them a boost? I dunno. I don't think additional module slots are the answer.

Something is needed though. I don't even think I have seen a jenner in a dozen or so games.

Edited by topgun505, 22 December 2014 - 09:37 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

topgun505, on 22 December 2014 - 09:26 AM, said:

Allow arty and airstrikes (and maybe UAVs) to be able to be carried by only lights and you will probably see the light que double in size or more.

But I doubt PGI would ever do that.

I wouldn't have a problem with that. Lights would become responsible for scouting and marking enemy positions. As spotters they also call in strikes. Seems like s solid idea to help promote role warfare to me.

Well, lights and the Atlas, but only if your a Steiner

[DrxAbstract]

Escef, on 22 December 2014 - 08:26 AM, said:

Really? That's news to me, and I've run a Streak36 Mad Dog. I mean, 36 missiles, randomly assigned to 8 hit locations, means 4 to 5 missiles per location, at 2 damage per missile, or a total of 8 or 10 damage (on average) per hit location. With max armor, a fresh Commando or Locust can tank that, usually without loosing limbs. FS9s and JR7s (if fresh) can usually tank 2 salvos like that.

Except for the fact it's almost never divided equally among 8 locations - Usually it's 3-4. Combined with other factors such as which sections the game decides were actually capable of being hit due to twisting, elevation and which direction the target was running. It's more often 36 missiles divided among two sections - An arm and leg or an arm, leg and side torso with a dash of front/rear CT. Realistically, a fresh max armor Commando or Locust is legged 8 out of 10 times and killed with the second volley. Jenners/Ravens are typically cored and nearly legged, and almost always at least legged with the second and missing a good portion of their firepower. I've gotten lucky with surviving 3 but I still lost a leg, both arms and down to internals on every section. The simple truth is if one shot doesnt maim a Light, a 2nd shot most assuredly will. This is barring things such as using obstructions to block the shot or break locks (Which is considerably more difficult than people like to admit), though a Streak Dog/Crow with Tag will be able to lock and fire half a second after you're exposed, if not immediately.

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Clan LRMs with no minimum range? Boo-hoo, they do next to no damage under 90 meters.

Yet they still lock, fire, deal damage, shake cockpits and blind under 180. They could use a reduction in turn speed.

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Dual Gauss/PPC set ups? Hey, those hurt everyone, take a number and get in line.

Indeed they do hurt everyone. They're even more likely to miss or spread damage on a Light... Marginally. Overall, PPC and Gauss should not be allowed to fire within .5 seconds of the other.

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You don't know what you're talking about.

Of course you think you do. /shrug