1236 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

So recently, a few Clan Mechs were given preliminary quirk passes (Nova, Mist Lynx and Summoner, I believe), but I had not really had time to test them and see.

Since the Summoner has always been my favorite Clan Omni, both in TT and previous MW titles, I decided it was time to revisit it and see where it stood.

I decided that for the Holiday Event, I was going to run my bone stock Summoner Prime almost exclusively a control group (on my clan acct..... my IS one I'm still running all Mediums, all the time.). As a jump happy Medium Mech guy, I feel I probably have the right playstyle to maximize the Summoner, as I don't try to tank and take over matches, like TW and Assault pilots will want to do, but use the mobility and good heat management to constantly harass and probe and exploit over eager bad guys.

So the Mech is:
SMN-PRIME
and it's quirks:

Spoiler

SMN-PRIME LEFT ARM
BALLISTIC COOLDOWN: 10.00 %
SMN-PRIME LEFT TORSO
TORSO TURN ANGLE (YAW): 5.00
SMN-PRIME CENTER TORSO
ACCELERATION RATE (LOW SPEED): 25.00 %
ACCELERATION RATE (MED SPEED): 25.00 %
ACCELERATION RATE (HIGH SPEED): 25.00 %
DECELERATION RATE (LOW SPEED): 25.00 %
DECELERATION RATE (MED SPEED): 25.00 %
DECELERATION RATE (HIGH SPEED): 25.00 % SPEED: 5.00 %
SMN-PRIME RIGHT TORSO
TORSO TURN ANGLE (YAW): 5.00
SMN-PRIME RIGHT ARM
ENERGY COOLDOWN: 10.00 %

Torso Yaw 120º
Arm Yaw 20°
Torso Pitch 20°
Arm Pitch 30°
Twist Speed 57°/s
Torso Yaw Speed 100°/s
Arm Yaw Speed 225°/s
Torso Pitch Speed 56°/s
Arm Pitch Speed 225°/s

All skills are mastered, with Lvl 5 Modules for the C-LB-10X and C-ER PPC, giving each a respective 27% faster cooldown.

I've run 30 plus matches so far, all PUG based. Will Update as I get more matches.

Damage was mediocre for a heavy, as expected, hovering between 4-500 most matches, and averaging 2 kills. Considering the weapons profile and laughable ammo loadout, not horrible, IMO.

​Most surprising, was the survivability. Stock it's only running 83% of maximum armor, and it's not "optimized" in locations. Yet I only died, on average every 3rd match. The biggest area of constant damage was the legs.

Biggest knock, is even with it's speed and agility buffs, it's still just not feeling quite "there". For one thing, if you run any Ballistics beside machine guns, or PPCs in the arms, you lose your arm yaw, leaving you with you 120% twist range. This sounds pretty good, but IMO the twist speed doesn't feel quite fast enough.

General Impression: Improved, but still a Tier 3 Mech. Might it be better with a "Meta" Build? Some, but marginal. It still would not make tier 2 (I run the Metas when dropping CGBI. And while individual warrior do well in them, there is a reason its the least represented Clan Heavy).

Recommendations?
(These are merely a list of possible, not exhaustive, nor meant to be all done together)

- The most popular suggestion is to either Unlock the JJs, or Allow it to mount Endo Steel.

Spoiler

And I admit, while never having a desire to strip the Summoner of one of its defining features (it's JJs), I certainly cannot deny that an extra 3.5 tons would not have worked wonders for the payload.

I find I must be leary of doing much in either department though. Stripping JJs will still just leave you a poor man's TW-S, while improving the JJs boost or recharge risks reigniting the poptart Meta. Allowing Endo steel here will inevitably start the avalanche of people wanting it done on ALL locked chassis, tossing yet another ot the "balance pillars" PGI set between Battlemechs and OmniMechs out the window.

- Increase the leg Internal Structure/Armor.

Spoiler

This is one of the most glaring, and easiest fixes, and very much in line with existing quirks on many chassis. Nothing balance threatening or game breaking here.

- Give the Energy Pods Reduced Heat Generation.

Spoiler

In lore, one of the many aspects of the Summoners success, was it was a cool running mech in all configurations. Well, anyone who has tried to build around the 2 Energy point arms, knows the Summoner is not cool running. And surprising to me, was just how quickly the stock version heated up with a single ER PPC, especially once the Cooldown Module was added. The Mech simply cannot boat energy weapons, so unlike the WubVomit or 3x ER PPC Thunderbolts, there is little chance of this getting abused.

- Not enough Hardpoints. Inflate a few carefully selected Pods, or add new omni pods.

Spoiler

Another one with some potential to go south. But simple truth is, the Summoner has neither the tonnage for truly big gun, nor hardpoints for lots of smaller guns. It's stuck in a truly tough spot. But I can't tell you how often simply having 1-2 more missile hardpoints in the LT would have made a world of difference in the effectiveness of the mech. But being able to pack a pair of SRM6s in the LT, a quad of ER Mlasers in the Arms and a UAC5 or LB-10X in the RT would make it much more effective an ambush hunter.

- Mobility is it's hallmark, so give it faster Twist Speed and or Allow it to maintain lower arm actuators with PPCs and Ballistics.

Spoiler

The ability to actually use it's twist yaw and arm yaw to the full would also really help the mech for those used to a more mobile fighting style.

Thoughts, Opinions, Insights and Recommendations?

(Btw, even with limited ammo, the stock Summoner IS real fun to play, but certainly not competitive)

*** EDIT Well, at 60 matches, my rate of dying has not increased dramatically, but I ran through a stretch where I was getting no kills, 4-500 damage, and a ton of assists, just not sealing the deal. That said, I still seem to get more matches with a kill than not, and definitely not dying all that often, even with low armor.

Overall, I must say the Summoners fragility seems a myth. Yes, if I get focused, it can go bad fast..... but that is true with pretty much anything beside a Firestarter.

EDIT....since these two topics are irrevocably linked: http://mwomercs.com/...-or-storm-crow/

*** Preliminary Suggestions:

Unlock Endo for Omnis that don't have it (but with locked predetermined crits)



and for the Prime:

- 20% Cooldown on Ballistics (Whole chassis)

- 20% Cooldown on LB-10X (LA only)

- 15% Heat Reduction on Energy (Chassis)

- 15% Heat Reduction on C-ERPPC (RA only)

- 25% Projectile Speed boost (Chassis) or a Cooldown on the PPC (RA)



Summoner Bravo:

- 25% Projectile Speed Missiles (Chassis)

- 20% Cooldown Missiles (Chassis)

- 20% Cooldown LRM20s (Arms)

- 15% Range Missiles (Chassis)

- 30% Target Lock Speed Missiles (Chassis)





Summoner Delta:

- 20% Heat Reduction Energy (Chassis)

- 20% Heat Reduction ER Large Lasers (RA/LA)

- 20% Heat Reduction ER Mlasers (RA/LA)

- -40% beam duration All Lasers (Chassis)

- 20% Cool Down Energy (chassis)





Note that I listed the "generic" quirks as tied to the chassis, but the specific weapon quirks tot eh pods that come with them.

IMO; Clan MEchs basic quirks should be by the variant, but any swapped pods LOSE their special quirks, so that one can take the LB-X pod from the Prime and put it on a Delta, but it only gets whatever base chassis bonuses the Delta gets with that weapon, then.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 09 February 2015 - 08:02 AM.

[hybrid black]

1 er PPC 1 gauss =1000 + damage matches with 3-4 kills in the hands of a good player

[FupDup]

The biggest thing I think the "[Summoer]" could use is additional Omnipods, particularly having at least 1 energy hardpoint in each side torso. This would help to alleviate the hardpoint famine somewhat, as well as allow it to make better use of its limited tonnage (lasers have the best damage per tonnage ratio of all guns). They'd also be mounted high at the nipples (higher than its main competitor the TBR), providing somewhat of a niche role in [poptarting].

More agility would be kewl too.

Edited by Marvyn Dodgers, 21 December 2014 - 10:19 AM.
Language

[Bishop Steiner]

hybrid black, on 21 December 2014 - 09:43 AM, said:

1 er PPC 1 gauss =1000 + damage matches with 3-4 kills in the hands of a good player

against bad competition, yes. And not nearly as much now that Poptarting is not near as easy.

And even in the "hands of good players", those are not your average match, unless you are talking about the small handful of competition level players still running it.

Which means nothing to the other 98% playing the game.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 21 December 2014 - 09:52 AM.

[Monkey Lover]

All it needs is endo and it would be 100% better.

[hybrid black]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 December 2014 - 09:50 AM, said:

against bad competition, yes. And not nearly as much now that Poptarting is not near as easy.

hmmm im very sure i have seen this post high numbers even in the elite of mechwarrior players [Redacted]

Edited by John Wolf, 21 December 2014 - 06:18 PM.
Focus on the topic, don't target players.

[FupDup]

Monkey Lover, on 21 December 2014 - 09:51 AM, said:

All it needs is endo and it would be 100% better.

The problem with unlocking the "core" of an Omni means that people will inevitably ask for the logic to carry over to other Omnimechs.

I don't think you want to see what kind of things I could do with a Hellbringer that has Endo Steel. I would do horrible, unspeakable things...

[Bishop Steiner]

hybrid black, on 21 December 2014 - 09:52 AM, said:

hmmm im very sure i have seen this post high numbers even in the elite of mechwarrior players [redacted]

Yes, feel free to [redacted]. Very laughable when you have zero clue my skill level or competition level. But yes, always the fallback argument. "L2P, huehuehue".

If that was the "Norm" for upper play, guess what? Upper tier players would use them more. They don't. Huh, go figure.

*SMH*.

Anyhow, moving on to those with something useful to contribute.

FupDup, on 21 December 2014 - 09:52 AM, said:

The problem with unlocking the "core" of an Omni means that people will inevitably ask for the logic to carry over to other Omnimechs.

I don't think you want to see what kind of things I could do with a Hellbringer that has Endo Steel. I would do horrible, unspeakable things...

or even the Mad Dog.

Monkey Lover, on 21 December 2014 - 09:51 AM, said:

All it needs is endo and it would be 100% better.

Already covered that. It would help, though hardly "100% better"...but also open up too many cans of worms, in likelihood.

Edited by John Wolf, 21 December 2014 - 06:19 PM.
Language / Moderated Quote

[FupDup]

Guise, pls don't turn this into a back-and-forth of "GET ON MAH LEVEL."

[Bishop Steiner]

FupDup, on 21 December 2014 - 10:04 AM, said:

Guise, pls don't turn this into a back-and-forth of "GET ON MAH LEVEL."

Oh no worries of that. When the only argument someone has is "git gud" and "I seen you once, u dint do 2 good", it's pretty obviously either troll bait, or over inflated opinion of one's skill.

I'm here to discuss the chassis, [Redacted].

Edited by John Wolf, 21 December 2014 - 10:29 AM.
Language

[Roland]

To be clear, you are saying that you average two kills a game, and only die every third game. So that would have you running a 6.0 kill/death ratio.

Either your claims were exaggerated there, or the mech is actually performing exceptionally well.

[John Wolf]

Hello Mechwarrior,

I'm glad to hear that people are here to discuss the chassis' and topic. So I should not have to delete any further posts that appear to be targeted towards players and have nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Stay on topic, stay constructive and avoid any comments which refer to other players.

Thanks.

John Wolf

[Bishop Steiner]

Roland, on 21 December 2014 - 10:20 AM, said:

To be clear, you are saying that you average two kills a game, and only die every third game. So that would have you running a 6.0 kill/death ratio.

Either your claims were exaggerated there, or the mech is actually performing exceptionally well.

Not really, what it is saying is I have been on teams that didn't die much. High W/L is not really a function of the chassis, as much as KDr.

On a small window it's not hard to have runs like this. Once the Elo gods get angry with me, my comp will get better, my teams worse, and I will die more.

If only MWO was as black and white as all that. Which is also why I posted my match count, and will be updating it.

The point being made, overall though, is most times, if my team won, I survived, even though I was in the thick of things. Sometimes with only one leg, and a PPC left, but still impressive toughness for a mech running 9.5 tons of armor.

John Wolf, on 21 December 2014 - 10:22 AM, said:

Hello Mechwarrior,

I'm glad to hear that people are here to discuss the chassis' and topic. So I should not have to delete any further posts that appear to be targeted towards players and have nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Stay on topic, stay constructive and avoid any comments which refer to other players.

Thanks.

John Wolf

Thanks, appreciated.

But....
Shouldn't you be in Clan Wolf?

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 21 December 2014 - 10:26 AM.

[John Wolf]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 December 2014 - 10:25 AM, said:

But....
Shouldn't you be in Clan Wolf?

Negative, I am a meat popsicle. (Also doing the Dragoon thing, and suffering with the green machine first.)

[Golden Vulf]

Yeah I second the call for Endo Steel.

So what, Hellbringer and Mad Dog with 3 extra tons? Unless they somehow become superior to the Timberwolf, no one is going to cry a river.

Dire Wolf with 5 extra tons, but 7 fewer critical spots? It will probably end up being used for a couple more heatsinks and Uac/5 ammo. Maybe a pair of medium lasers.

PGI, all mechs that you refuse to give endo and FF options to need SERIOUS quirks. Especially in a game universe when every single IS mech magically has the ability to switch out their standard structure for Endo steel.

The Gargoyle is laughable, and I'm not just talking about the face on the Prime, but while I'm on it, the face on the prime is laughable!

Edited by Golden Vulf, 21 December 2014 - 10:32 AM.

[John Wolf]

Every single IS mech has FF and Endo options, however none of them can change weapon hardpoints at will. Clans have Pods, is has armor options.. I would think that is fair.

You can't really quirk a chassis that isn't a 'chassis' but a jigsaw puzzle.

[Bishop Steiner]

John Wolf, on 21 December 2014 - 10:33 AM, said:

Every single IS mech has FF and Endo options, however none of them can change weapon hardpoints at will. Clans have Pods, is has armor options.. I would think that is fair.

You can't really quirk a chassis that isn't a 'chassis' but a jigsaw puzzle.

Ture but each pod can be quirked, and the CT can get some basic "universal" ones.

Also, while not really germane to this topic, would love to see improved sensors, JJ mobility, etc, as quirks in various mechs like the Raven and Spider that were known for those things.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Unlocking Endo and Ferro would make the Hellbringer scary as mother nature. And it would buff some hurting chassis like the Gargoyle, Nova, and Summoner.

The trifecta would neither gain nor lose as the Stormbro and Timbergod already have both Endo and Ferro and the Whale wouldn't benefit from either because already has 50 tons of weight to play with and what it needs are crits.

[Mcgral18]

They actually have a LT Energy hardpoint in the gamefiles rendered. Same position as the Ballistic ones; nice and high.


Nothing for the RT, but it's better than nothing:

[Bishop Steiner]

Mcgral18, on 21 December 2014 - 11:21 AM, said:

They actually have a LT Energy hardpoint in the gamefiles rendered. Same position as the Ballistic ones; nice and high.


Nothing for the RT, but it's better than nothing:

A start, probably not enough in itself, but a start.