1236 replies to this topic

[InspectorG]

Brandarr Gunnarson, on 14 July 2016 - 08:41 PM, said:

We really don't need the Summoner to become another laser boating mech. Unlocking the JJs is not cool either.

As Bishop said, great JJs are the hallmark of the Summoner. That and mixed builds with big ballistics are what make the Summoned.

As for energy hardpoints, one in each ST positioned up high where the current ballistics handprints are is enough. That would accommodate your energy boats (cLPLs) or mixed builds.

But let's be realistic, those proposed ammo quirks are not going to really solve Summoner's ballistic/mixed build problems. They're not going to make up for the tonnage... unless they are 2x ammo quirks (that is, +100%).

That doesn't seem likely.

JJ beyond 2 are a waste in MWO. For the boost you get, tonnage is best spent else where.

Summoner Prime in BT plays nothing like it would in MWO. First, non-compatible crit systems make LBx garbage. A single ERPPC is nice but is still nothing. Even 2 isnt really enough and gets choked on heat. A single LRM10 is also a waste.

The 'role' for a Summoner in MWO cant be the same in BT. Different systems at play.

In BT, a ERPPC to punch 15 damage-holes in mechs that ran 1/4 to 1/2 the armor they do in MWO isnt crap. The LBX and LRM to crit-fish dont work either.

So to base its firepower on BT is pointless.

Summoner will get lazer vomit, not because its meta-chic but because lazors offer the most damage per ton.

Dakka would work better but '3 tons per gun' ammo is hard in a Summoner and boating more than 2UAC5 is a problem.

LRMs are a joke and Splat is about what the Summoner does best though with crap convergence.

Poptart 2ERPPC is nice but 20 damage PPFL aint what it used to be in the age of mass structure quirks.

PGI simple WONT offer Endo or unlockable JJ because its gonna be way more efficient to quirk it to goodness rather than figure out a whole new system to mix/match pods with fixed/unfixed equips.

Bishop can argue mixed loadout Summoers till the cows come home. Wont work in MWO because LRMs suck, the crit system is wrong, and PGI would have to invest too many man hours into fixing a lost mech.
Besides we already have mixed loadouts for Summoners that other mechs usually dont do due to having better options:

ERPPC+UAC10
UAC20+2MPL
2LPL+2SRM4
2ERML+ARLM10(f-that crap)
4ERMP+ASRM6(stormcrow laughs at this)
2LPL+2ERML(weak with bad convergence)
UAC20+5SRM2(dont miss)
2ERPPC

Seriously, lazor vomit will be the way to go if we get nice ERLL duration quirks. 44 damage aint much and IS duration would fit the 'drive-by' theme.

Better heat for ERPPCS, the cooldown is there, as is velocity. Heat is the limiter. Convergence is still crap. ST pods with 1E each would make this poptart WAY better and WAY more durable.
Full 15 damage ERPPCs would carry this farther as well.

Dakka needs a x2 or even x3 ammo quirks to make anything bigger than dual UAC5 even slightly possible. Best case would be 2UAC5+4MPL...yeah, dont hold your breath.

JJ could use more boost but FASTER recharge.




Seriously, the solution is gonna be quirks and MAYBE ST pods.

Praying for Endo, JJ, is praying to a non-existent god.

[Bishop Steiner]

InspectorG, on 14 July 2016 - 09:26 PM, said:

JJ beyond 2 are a waste in MWO. For the boost you get, tonnage is best spent else where.

Summoner Prime in BT plays nothing like it would in MWO. First, non-compatible crit systems make LBx garbage. A single ERPPC is nice but is still nothing. Even 2 isnt really enough and gets choked on heat. A single LRM10 is also a waste.

The 'role' for a Summoner in MWO cant be the same in BT. Different systems at play.

In BT, a ERPPC to punch 15 damage-holes in mechs that ran 1/4 to 1/2 the armor they do in MWO isnt crap. The LBX and LRM to crit-fish dont work either.

So to base its firepower on BT is pointless.

Summoner will get lazer vomit, not because its meta-chic but because lazors offer the most damage per ton.

Dakka would work better but '3 tons per gun' ammo is hard in a Summoner and boating more than 2UAC5 is a problem.

LRMs are a joke and Splat is about what the Summoner does best though with crap convergence.

Poptart 2ERPPC is nice but 20 damage PPFL aint what it used to be in the age of mass structure quirks.

PGI simple WONT offer Endo or unlockable JJ because its gonna be way more efficient to quirk it to goodness rather than figure out a whole new system to mix/match pods with fixed/unfixed equips.

Bishop can argue mixed loadout Summoers till the cows come home. Wont work in MWO because LRMs suck, the crit system is wrong, and PGI would have to invest too many man hours into fixing a lost mech.
Besides we already have mixed loadouts for Summoners that other mechs usually dont do due to having better options:

ERPPC+UAC10
UAC20+2MPL
2LPL+2SRM4
2ERML+ARLM10(f-that crap)
4ERMP+ASRM6(stormcrow laughs at this)
2LPL+2ERML(weak with bad convergence)
UAC20+5SRM2(dont miss)
2ERPPC

Seriously, lazor vomit will be the way to go if we get nice ERLL duration quirks. 44 damage aint much and IS duration would fit the 'drive-by' theme.

Better heat for ERPPCS, the cooldown is there, as is velocity. Heat is the limiter. Convergence is still crap. ST pods with 1E each would make this poptart WAY better and WAY more durable.
Full 15 damage ERPPCs would carry this farther as well.

Dakka needs a x2 or even x3 ammo quirks to make anything bigger than dual UAC5 even slightly possible. Best case would be 2UAC5+4MPL...yeah, dont hold your breath.

JJ could use more boost but FASTER recharge.




Seriously, the solution is gonna be quirks and MAYBE ST pods.

Praying for Endo, JJ, is praying to a non-existent god.

and yet I carry a 1.41 KDr on my mixed build, bone stock SMN Prime......

Huh. Go figure. Sure, not up there with my "Meta" Mechs.... but for a mech with the armor of a 45 tonner, 15 shots for the Autocannon and scarcely more for the "useless" LRMS?

Also, for the sake of clarity, mixed builds can use stuff like SRMs... which work just fine, combined with LPLs, ERPPCs, and Heavy ACs,.

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

InspectorG, on 14 July 2016 - 09:26 PM, said:

PGI simple WONT offer Endo or unlockable JJ because its gonna be way more efficient to quirk it to goodness rather than figure out a whole new system to mix/match pods with fixed/unfixed equips.

Seriously, the solution is gonna be quirks and MAYBE ST pods.

Praying for Endo, JJ, is praying to a non-existent god.

Just because they won't do something doesn't mean that shouldn't or can't.

And as long as they should and can, we should demand they do just that: what they can and what they should.

[InspectorG]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 July 2016 - 09:44 PM, said:

and yet I carry a 1.41 KDr on my mixed build, bone stock SMN Prime......

Irrelevant.
My Cicada-B has a 2.5+ KDR and my AC-B has a 0.57. Cicada is OP plz nerf, AC needs buff.

Clubbing baby Pugs can be done in a Spider-V just as well.

Drop your Stock Summoner in Group vs goods. Post the vids. Better yet, get 12 goods to drop in stock Summoners, see how the team does vs meta-goods.

Brandarr Gunnarson, on 14 July 2016 - 10:03 PM, said:

Just because they won't do something doesn't mean that shouldn't or can't.

And as long as they should and can, we should demand they do just that: what they can and what they should.

Yeah, PGI SHOULD balance the mechs, make CW work as promised, Make LRMS viable, fix C-ERPPC, fix the crit system...etc etc etc.

If only PGI had infinite resources to do so.

[Karl Streiger]

InspectorG, on 14 July 2016 - 10:16 PM, said:

Yeah, PGI SHOULD balance the mechs, make CW work as promised, Make LRMS viable, fix C-ERPPC, fix the crit system...etc etc etc.

If only PGI had infinite resources to do so.

Because writing some database querys, database functions and editing some game files is so hard?
OK you might need some time in planing the changes but thats it.

non of your changes need coding - or at least it shouldn't need coding if you have done it right.

Bishop Steiner, on 14 July 2016 - 09:44 PM, said:

and yet I carry a 1.41 KDr on my mixed build, bone stock SMN Prime......

Huh. Go figure. Sure, not up there with my "Meta" Mechs.... but for a mech with the armor of a 45 tonner, 15 shots for the Autocannon and scarcely more for the "useless" LRMS?

Also, for the sake of clarity, mixed builds can use stuff like SRMs... which work just fine, combined with LPLs, ERPPCs, and Heavy ACs,.

As you said once - so even when you are great with a Awesome with just Flammers - it doesn't change the fact that either Awesome or Flammer sucks (ok this is a long time ago, but the forum remember)

Edited by Karl Streiger, 14 July 2016 - 10:52 PM.

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

InspectorG, on 14 July 2016 - 10:16 PM, said:

Yeah, PGI SHOULD balance the mechs, make CW work as promised, Make LRMS viable, fix C-ERPPC, fix the crit system...etc etc etc.

If only PGI had infinite resources to do so.

They don't need infinite resources to do these things. I am confident they actually have more than enough resources (money) to do these things very well... should they want to.

[InspectorG]

Karl Streiger, on 14 July 2016 - 10:50 PM, said:

Because writing some database querys, database functions and editing some game files is so hard?
OK you might need some time in planing the changes but thats it.

non of your changes need coding - or at least it shouldn't need coding if you have done it right.

What are you talking about???

CW needs a whole meta game built, ala, reasons to own planets.

LRMs need a whole new indirect fire system.

The Crit system is pointless because why even give equips HP when sawing off the whole component is usually more oft to happen.

ERPPCs, LBX, MG likely could be fixed via spreadsheet, though.

Game mode objective? Gonna spreadsheet that one?

Brandarr Gunnarson, on 14 July 2016 - 10:52 PM, said:

They don't need infinite resources to do these things. I am confident they actually have more than enough resources (money) to do these things very well... should they want to.

Money is one resource.

Time and skill are another.

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

InspectorG, on 14 July 2016 - 10:56 PM, said:

Money is one resource.

Time and skill are another.

Time is a resource that can be managed by money and skill.

Skill is a resource that can be bought with money.

In both cases, if they have money, they can make it happen... if they want to.

[Karl Streiger]

InspectorG, on 14 July 2016 - 10:56 PM, said:

CW needs a whole meta game built, ala, reasons to own planets.

This should not happen in the UI - the underlying mechanic are database queries - you may need to add some new UI elements - and maybe the communication between UI and DB. - so ok 50/50
To have good maps and game objectives for CW - well see below

Quote

LRMs need a whole new indirect fire system.

This would be the best option indeed. Some tweaks but at long shot you really need heavy coding - you are right 5/95

Quote

The Crit system is pointless because why even give equips HP when sawing off the whole component is usually more oft to happen.

Changes for crits - well If you don't want to change the whole system - (Again best option) - you are stuck what you have:
Component HPs. Internal Structure - you can change those values simple. Coding would be necessary to prevent Laser from beeing the Critseeker nr. 1. (if you don't deal 1dmg to a component in less then a second this damage doesn't count as crit)
so 80/20??

Quote

Game mode objective? Gonna spreadsheet that one?

uhm of course not - neither this or good maps could be spreadsheeted
The only thing that may be possible - to drop with your team and when you are done with the first drop your Mechs as damaged and empty as they are drop into a second battle against fresh troops but with a different objective. This could become really interesting in CW
(Heck would be a complete different game mode)

---

Anyhow
The interesting part is the effects some changes may cause - for example if crits are more recent while structure keeps longer intact - big ballistics and even missiles will be dead if you do not change some other values (rate of fire - spend your ammunition faster; heat - while running colder)

Edited by Karl Streiger, 14 July 2016 - 11:27 PM.

[InspectorG]

Brandarr Gunnarson, on 14 July 2016 - 11:03 PM, said:

Time is a resource that can be managed by money and skill.

Skill is a resource that can be bought with money.

In both cases, if they have money, they can make it happen... if they want to.

So since we have seen neither time 'soon'™, nor skill, PGI must b broke according to your logic.

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

InspectorG, on 15 July 2016 - 05:46 AM, said:

So since we have seen neither time 'soon'™, nor skill, PGI must b broke according to your logic.

Not sure how you reached that conclusion.

The more likely possibility is the other one: They don't want to spend the money to make changes.

[InspectorG]

Brandarr Gunnarson, on 15 July 2016 - 06:06 AM, said:

Not sure how you reached that conclusion.

Easy, you assume PGI has plentiful Money and can simply *poof* buy time and skilled employees. Game fixed, right?

But its not.

So either PGI doesnt have the money, or they are keeping it all.

Or.

PGI isnt skilled enough to optimize the money they spend....which no one ever wants to admit for some reason.

Its always big bad greed, cashing in on people married to an IP.

Never PGI is only an average skilled company producing an average product. Thats not sexy enough to salt about i guess.

[mogs01gt]

Bottom line:
Laser weapons run too cool especially when alpha'd
ERPPCs arent as effective as they should be
Mechs with limited hardpoints are at a huge disadvantage
Clan ballistics suck
JJ's arent actually JJs

That sums up what is wrong with the Thor, well and the Victor lol.

[Foxwalker]

I hate to do it, but I agree with the OP. BS you are right. Leave the Summoner alone.

It is one of my favorite MECHS. I have 4 (Completely different) viable builds that each works very well. Only a few mechs have than many different configurations that they can say they do well in. Most other mechs are laser vomit variations, or AC spam.

I think that most don't like it cause it cannot be jury-rigged into the same style they are used to playing in other Mechs.

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

InspectorG, on 15 July 2016 - 12:10 PM, said:

Easy, you assume PGI has plentiful Money and can simply *poof* buy time and skilled employees. Game fixed, right?

But its not.

So either PGI doesnt have the money, or they are keeping it all.

Or.

PGI isnt skilled enough to optimize the money they spend....which no one ever wants to admit for some reason.

Its always big bad greed, cashing in on people married to an IP.

Never PGI is only an average skilled company producing an average product. Thats not sexy enough to salt about i guess.

Well I don't have access to their finances, but certain things in this game are being developed and that suggests they do have money and are putting it back into the game. Just not always in meaningful ways.

For example:

• Rescale was an extensive project that required them to rework models, movements, quirks, etc. They wouldn't have done that if they weren't making money.
  
• FP3 is a further attempt at what is day by day showing itself to be a money sink. They wouldn't continue to waste money on further iterations of this if they weren't making money.
  
• Decals require graphic designers to create stencils for each design by hand and then modify and test aesthetics on a variant by variant basis. Again, they wouldn't put back into the game this way if it weren't making money.

The first of these was overall a good development. The latter two really haven't done anything to improve the game itself. And that speaks to skill in development, but also in management.

As for being an average company with average skill producing an average product; perhaps.

But as it seems pretty clear they have money, that means they should be able to buy skill and high skill makes efficient use of time.

[Anakha]

I think the ammo quirk would certainly help the mech if they ever do that but it would have to be like a double ammo per ton quirk to make any noticeable difference and this would definitely make up for the lack of Endo hopefully we will see that soon.