17 replies to this topic

[Col Jaime Wolf]

you know im gonna actually have to agree with some of the pugs here.

was just playing the sulfur map vs CJF

first two waves of their 12 man (all timber wolves, stormcrows and like 2 kit foxes each wave) only managed to kill 1 gen and we were only 1 wave down with a 13 kill lead. their third wave just walked and JJ right past us in TW and stormcrows. targeted just the gens and then omega.

there is literally nothing you can do to stop a bull rush on that map.

it works for IS too so dont take this as a "clans are OP" **** no.

any team with enough speedy mechs can simply throw in their first 2 waves and if they break 1 or 2 gens it doesn't matter they can always win by just zerg rushing.

I also experienced my first 12 man firestarter rush today on that same map as the defender.

ya we stopped the first 12 firestarters with omega at a sliver of health the next 12? i dont think we killed one before one of them tapped it with a small laser.

if russ wants people to brawl then the gens and omega need something like 1000% if not more health boost. it needs to take so long to destroy them that its inconceivable to even try if the defenders are still alive.

Edited by Mellifluer, 22 December 2014 - 08:41 PM.

[The Cheese]

Maybe the "destroy the generators" thing is just a flawed mechanic from the core...

[Chagatay]

Eh, it is possible to defend.
Hard sure but then the Tundra map is hard to attack so it sorta works out.
Destroy generators is a step in the right direction (at least it takes 2 waves)

[Sam Slade]

make gates a defendable position... add secureable LZ for FOUR attackers only inside the gates somewhere(random)...buff the gates... add more turrets at omega... so many suggestions made so many times it's just silly now.

Wanting people to brawl will not make them brawl... PGI needs to look at how people get to the objectives not what they are.

Edited by Sam Slade, 22 December 2014 - 09:11 PM.

[Mystere]

All-Falcon PUG teams have successfully defended on that map against full Steiner 12-mans.

[Col Jaime Wolf]

Mystere, on 22 December 2014 - 09:15 PM, said:

All-Falcon PUG teams have successfully defended on that map against full Steiner 12-mans.

ive defended it against 12 mans and won as well with nothing but pugs. that's not what im talking about.

yes you can duke it out as the defenders and win.

what you can not do as the defenders is stop the enemy from simply using wave after wave of fast mechs that just ignore the defenders, run by and secure the objectives.

Sam Slade, on 22 December 2014 - 09:10 PM, said:

make gates a defendable position... add secureable LZ for FOUR attackers only inside the gates somewhere(random)...buff the gates... add more turrets at omega... so many suggestions made so many times it's just silly now.

Wanting people to brawl will not make them brawl... PGI needs to look at how people get to the objectives not what they are.

I agree the specific problem with the gens is that there is no need for the attackers to actually attack the defenders at all they simply need to disable the gens. this can only be fixed by either making the gens hard ot access physically without beating the defenders down IE map design or make the gens so hard to destroy that its simply not possible without having already taken care of the defenders.

Edited by Mellifluer, 22 December 2014 - 09:29 PM.

[Mystere]

Mellifluer, on 22 December 2014 - 09:22 PM, said:

ive defended it against 12 mans and won as well with nothing but pugs. that's not what im talking about.

yes you can duke it out as the defenders and win.

what you can not do as the defenders is stop the enemy from simply using wave after wave of fast mechs that just ignore the defenders, run by and secure the objectives.

That has been done too. Legging was the order of the day.

[Col Jaime Wolf]

Mystere, on 22 December 2014 - 09:24 PM, said:

That has been done too. Legging was the order of the day.

stop being a troll you know as well as i do that if a team is using enough fast mechs then just ignore defenders and blitz to the objectives there is no way to stop them from breaking the gens.

I know it works because ive done it to. i even have 3 specialized commandos that all go 171 and have never been stopped from breaking the gens. sometimes i even get 2 for 1 commando.

Edited by Mellifluer, 22 December 2014 - 09:44 PM.

[vandalhooch]

Send out scouts after first wave. Then hit them long before they get to the gates. You can continue to hit them all the way back and if you die, you respawn at omega. Not really that hard a counter-strategy. Getting a group of PUGS to grasp the concept is difficult though.

You can not wait at base for the second or third wave when defending sulfurous unless their first wave failed to knock out any generators.

[Col Jaime Wolf]

vandalhooch, on 22 December 2014 - 09:45 PM, said:

Send out scouts after first wave. Then hit them long before they get to the gates. You can continue to hit them all the way back and if you die, you respawn at omega. Not really that hard a counter-strategy. Getting a group of PUGS to grasp the concept is difficult though.

You can not wait at base for the second or third wave when defending sulfurous unless their first wave failed to knock out any generators.

your right you know that's the tactic ive seen alot of 12 mans using to defend that map and its sad that the defenders have to go spawn camp the attackers to win defending

Edited by Mellifluer, 22 December 2014 - 09:48 PM.

[Mystere]

Mellifluer, on 22 December 2014 - 09:41 PM, said:

stop being a troll you know as well as i do that if a team is using enough fast mechs then just ignore defenders and blitz to the objectives there is no way to stop them from breaking the gens.

I know it works because ive done it to. i even have 3 specialized commandos that all go 171 and have never been stopped from breaking the gens. sometimes i even get 2 for 1 commando.

Just because you have not yet seen a successful defense against 4 waves of rushes, does not mean no one else has either. I have. It was a match in which I spelled out to the attackers the definition of "insanity". The first wave was a 12-0 rout. The second was 12-4. I can't remember the final score though.

Of course, the enemy also can't really sucessfully rush if the match degenerates (for them anyway) into this:

vandalhooch, on 22 December 2014 - 09:45 PM, said:

Send out scouts after first wave. Then hit them long before they get to the gates. You can continue to hit them all the way back and if you die, you respawn at omega. Not really that hard a counter-strategy. Getting a group of PUGS to grasp the concept is difficult though.

You can not wait at base for the second or third wave when defending sulfurous unless their first wave failed to knock out any generators.

Edited by Mystere, 22 December 2014 - 09:55 PM.

[Mystere]

Mellifluer, on 22 December 2014 - 09:48 PM, said:

your right you know that's the tactic ive seen alot of 12 mans using to defend that map and its sad that the defenders have to go spawn camp the attackers to win defending

That is called "launching a counterattack".

Edited by Mystere, 22 December 2014 - 09:57 PM.

[Tsig]

It's really not that hard to counter a push like that, especially if you've properly set up scouts at the gates to see them coming. Even with ECM, it's impossible to sneak mechs close enough to the gates to surprise you if you've got proper scouts. At that point, you set up a firing line at the choke points while the attackers are destroying the Gate Generator. I've been part of a defense that absolutely demolished a group trying to rush the generators. It wasn't nearly as hard as you make it out to be.

[Col Jaime Wolf]

Mystere, on 22 December 2014 - 09:57 PM, said:

That is called "launching a counterattack".

so your saying the best defense on that map is for the defenders to spawncamp the attackers?

doesn't that say something about the map design and objectives?

[Tsig]

Mellifluer, on 22 December 2014 - 10:15 PM, said:

so your saying the best defense on that map is for the defenders to spawncamp the attackers?

doesn't that say something about the map design and objectives?

I won't say there's nothing wrong with the map or the objectives, but it's not nearly as bad as you're making it sound. Send some kind of observer to each gate to figure out which gate the enemy will use, then, when the enemy has been spotted, move the majority of your forces to that gate and set up a firing line. Make it so that the enemy has to run through all your mechs shooting at them if they want to get passed you. Also, leg them whenever you can. That will force them to fight as well as block up the choke points if you can hit them in there.

[Mystere]

Mellifluer, on 22 December 2014 - 10:15 PM, said:

so your saying the best defense on that map is for the defenders to spawncamp the attackers?

No, I am saying that attacking the enemy outside the gates is another option. I already know that a solid defense can stop a 4-wave rush.

Mellifluer, on 22 December 2014 - 10:15 PM, said:

doesn't that say something about the map design and objectives?

What is wrong with sallying and bringing the fight to the enemy if you are able to? Around a third(?) of my wins on defense are sallies.

[Col Jaime Wolf]

Tsig, on 22 December 2014 - 10:22 PM, said:

I won't say there's nothing wrong with the map or the objectives, but it's not nearly as bad as you're making it sound. Send some kind of observer to each gate to figure out which gate the enemy will use, then, when the enemy has been spotted, move the majority of your forces to that gate and set up a firing line. Make it so that the enemy has to run through all your mechs shooting at them if they want to get passed you. Also, leg them whenever you can. That will force them to fight as well as block up the choke points if you can hit them in there.

Its not every game that the enemy zergs yes. ive only encountered one 12 man firestarter rush since CW started.

those first few days were very chaotic no one seemed to have any good strats for at least the first day of CW but it didn't take long to see the zerging 12 mans.

one could say since you are aware of the tactic you should prepare for it yes.

but to the game i was specifically referencing. we had a scout on top of each gate. we had the slow mechs screened evenly so they could respond to any gate quickly. we had the med mostly at beta gate in front of omega ready to push right/left or center.

the first wave came from gamma and we met them head on. my first mech was my KC with 4 ultra 5's and srms, got over 1000 damage an smashed at least 4 of them outright left many more crippled or hurt. their first wave got the gamma gen but fell and we lost around half our mechs but got their whole wave.

their next wave hit gamma again and we were ready and completely smashed them but my KC fell in the heat of battle so i dropped in my spider 9K and proceeded to leg everyone in sight and ran out of MG ammo. by now we were down one wave and them two waves.

we reformed and i took up spotter at alpha. being out of ammo i volunteered to go scout them out and i found them hiding behind the ridge on alpha lane. told me team that they were grouping up for an alpha push and by the time they hit the gate we had all our mechs right up in their faces even as they pushed the gate. maybe my some on my team was to damaged to be effective and should have ejected, maybe they took some by surprise with their unrelenting push.

either way they basically walked past everyone and most of them made it. destroyed the last two gens and then omega.

so i don't really see how defending that base is tenable. if they had just zerged all 3 waves they probably would have won with only 2 but it felt like they wanted to get some damage in with their first 2 and save their last 2 waves for the real push.

I know in my commandos ive never been stopped from getting to the gens on either map. most of the time my team dies, but even when they fall like flies i can still get a light mech through and open up omega.

Edited by Mellifluer, 22 December 2014 - 11:02 PM.

[Tsig]

If you're running in a group, I would recommend that all of your group get together and discuss what builds you're going to run and who's going to run them. I know for JFP, we've got several people that run Streakboats specifically to deal with the Light Mechs.

You need to tailor the drop decks to get the most out of your weight. I would recommend that at least one or two people in your group have a Streakboat of some kind. It's sole job is to hunt lights. Even on attack it's useful to take out the lights that harass you. Now, you can have the same person bring 4 streak boats, or you can spread it around your group. I don't care which, but there needs to be at least one streak boat alive at all times for your group. If you even suspect a Light Rush, have 2-3 streak boats up at once.