28 replies to this topic

[psihius]

Wrecking clan mech's faces VRGD style since CW launch. No problems - won more than lost.

Problems are in humans, or as I like to say, "In the conducting element between the chair and the keyboard".

Edited by psihius, 22 December 2014 - 02:23 PM.

[Shalune]

You can make excuses all you want, but OP's spot on. I've played in IS and clan CW pugs on offense. The Ghost Bear ones I was a part of were vastly more open to cooperating and coordinating, while only 1 of the IS pugs has even had a faint understanding of what rushing really means.

If you still think the mechs have anything to do with it, consider this: in my offensive wins clan-side most of my team had under 100 damage done (turrets and bases do not count). All we did was focus objectives. Speed and durability were the keys, both things IS specializes in better than clan tech.

[Pockets]

Shalune, on 22 December 2014 - 02:19 PM, said:

Speed and durability were the keys, both things IS specializes in better than clan tech.

IS gets speed or durability, clans have a mix. The problem with random groups is that it's difficult to know which way people are going.

[iTango]

Pockets, on 22 December 2014 - 01:36 PM, said:

Maps are 90% of the problem, they're pretty badly designed and don't seem to have been thought out much - I don't understand how there are only two of them, with the lack of thought and the amount of assets built up from the other maps, they should have been able to create so many more if this low standard was all that was required and pruned them down.

I mean, it's pretty much
"drop point, some lanes, some gates, a cannon for the target, dot some turrets around. Done. Hmm, thats not working, just throw in some more generators ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ "
compare that to the kind of thought that goes into something like CS:GO:
http://www.counter-s...troducing_train

Now, de_train is 14 years old. They've had plenty of time to do several passes on it, make lots of improvements over time. There were a handful of terrible maps in the CS betas that have been pruned out or refined over time. However, it does highlight the level of attention to detail required to make high-quality competitive multiplayer maps.

The CW maps don't just lack that attention to detail, they appear to lack any understanding of how the game actually plays out.

However, there are other aspects that make it harder for IS teams to co-operate. The clan mechs are all pretty similar in approach - medium-to-long range, mostly 80 - 100 kph base speed, lots of main ball ECM cover and a few of the mechs are so good that most people have very similar drop-decks. This makes it a lot more simple for people to coordinate than an IS group where it's likely to be a lot more of a mix of different stuff. That, combined with not being able to see in advance what map its going to be leading to people picking brawly stuff for their first mech and ending up on Boreal makes it much more difficult to play to your strengths when playing as an IS PUG.

I'd like to be able to see a team's full drop deck rather than just the first mech people are taking. I'd hope VOIP would also help.

However, it does come back down to the awful maps.

THIS!

But adding additional information.

Boreal allows too much advantage on the defender's side due to the fact you can see both lanes from multiple points. This means that defenders can respond too quickly with their forces. Also from a gate you can shoot at the attacker as they are dropping. Sulferous rift actually accomplishes this well.

Sulferous rift has the opposite problem of Boreal. The engagement distance at the gates for the defenders is far too blocked and confined. It should be slightly reduced and adding a little more open space by clearing out or changing the size of the different buildings. Maybe convert some structures into more raised platforms for increased view but on the downside you can get hit easier? But on the upside for the attackers there are great approaches. Boreal should take a hint from Sulferous' attacker approaches.

[Kiiyor]

See, i'm not on board with them 'not being op'. I think that in normal PUG battles, the gap is much closer, but in CW, the MadCat and StormCrow make up a near perfect dropdeck. Great firepower, great survivability, and most of all, amazing speed.

They can relocate in no time at all to meet a threat. They can make great time getting to the gates on attack. They can rush to the generator before you know what is happening.

The 'Sphere can't match their speed - and worse than that, any 'Sphere drop deck will likely have mechs with huge variance in speed. Fast mechs are useless when they have to slow to match the most ponderous in the herd.

All IMHO of course, but as a 'Sphereoid, I envy the clans for their immense versatility, and the ease they have of making a great drop deck.

[zagibu]

psihius, on 22 December 2014 - 02:18 PM, said:

Wrecking clan mech's faces VRGD style since CW launch. No problems - won more than lost.

Problems are in humans, or as I like to say, "In the conducting element between the chair and the keyboard".

Your anecdotal evidence is useless. It's entirely possible that you would win even more if you were piloting clan mechs.

Also, I agree about clan OP cries mostly being about the TBR and SCR. A murder of SCRs attacking you is very hard to fend off, they are fast and just don't want to go down. I think ton for ton, it's the best mech for CW at the moment.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Alistair Winter, on 22 December 2014 - 06:44 AM, said:

Here's an even bigger problem: Winning the match in dominant fashion results in terrible pay.

No C-bills. No XP. No LP. If you want to get paid as the attacker, you have to play with your food, basically. You have to rush inside the base and then just stop to shoot at robots for a while.

With waiting time for each match being higher than ever, you get very little rewards for finishing the match with the first wave. Which means that some people want to win the match, others don't care. Losing a match will typically give more C-bills than a quick and dominant victory.

MWO is the only game where a pyrrhic victory is the best kind of victory.

This has got to be my problem with CW.

I don't enjoy the zerg rush because it doesn't let me use the skill I have as a pilot. Really any warm body that can stay on task, which is rush the the nearest generator, while ignoring all else, and kill it, can succeed in a Zerg rush. However it takes a hell of alot of skill to take out 11 mechs, 8 of which are solo kills and also knock out 2500 damage and achieve a match score over 315 in the process and these sort of matches are how I myself feel competitive. A win is 100% completely meaningless to me if I am not at the top of the leaderboard at the end and you don't get there on the attack unless you and your team actually fight the enemy. Honestly I guess this is the Clanner in me hehe, I mean what self-respecting Clanner would do anything other than meet his foes in honorable combat and annihilate them?

Of course the same can be said of rewards. I have gotten wins with my unit where I literally only managed to get 75k C-bills for my time or 150k with the win bonus, however my best reward came from a full on attrition win where my PUG team squarely beat the snot out of the the entire defending PUG force. Total reward on that match was 998k. That match, which was the one where I manged 11 kills, 8 solo kills and 2500 damage, was perhaps the most fulfilling and enjoyable match up I had every played in MWO and made me want to que up again as soon as possible. Zerg rushes however make me want to unplug my network cable and pretend I accidentally got discoed.

So yeah the question gets to be what do you do? Do you actually go for the cheap win or do you fight it out. Then what happens when half your PUG goes for the cheap win while the other goes for reward? Well that is easy, your PUG fails.

Then if your part of a unit that is competitive and focused on the win you find yourself in a lose-lose situation as well because as soon as attack or counter-attack pops up on the drop screen, you know that while you might (likely) take the win, your not going to have one bit of fun doing it, nor are you going to get rewarded for you time. This is the quandary I am in right now. I like my unit but just can't stand playing zerg wars and they aren't going to give up the almost guaranteed win to try and slug it out with the enemy when all the advantages are stacked in the defenders favor.

Anyway, wish PGI would get a clue about this already and come up with something, anything that actually makes fighting the preferred method for achieving victory. I want my "FIGHTING" skill to matter, not my ability to mindless rush the generators.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 22 December 2014 - 06:55 PM.

[psihius]

zagibu, on 22 December 2014 - 04:28 PM, said:

Your anecdotal evidence is useless. It's entirely possible that you would win even more if you were piloting clan mechs.

Also, I agree about clan OP cries mostly being about the TBR and SCR. A murder of SCRs attacking you is very hard to fend off, they are fast and just don't want to go down. I think ton for ton, it's the best mech for CW at the moment.

Tried a few clan mech's, didn't like the feel and playstyle. Decided not to invest, so I'm perfecting my IS mech's and skills piloting them. But if I did choose to play, a few weeks of training and learning would do the trick. I managed to master a few chassis that I thought were unplayable in my early days and actually were not that popular with the community, well, because they were underpowered in hands of majority and required quite an effort to master. But in skilled hands, those were able to become quite deadly.

TBR and SCR are scary when you don't know how to kill them or you get ambushed badly. Sure, they can pour out ridiculous damage, but only if you let them. But that's a skill beyond just simple ability to pilot a mech well.

Edited by psihius, 22 December 2014 - 07:57 PM.

[LordNothing]

i would argue that the main problem is weapons. the clans have a full set of er lasers. is only has the er large. clan also has a full complement of autocannons, especially the longer range lb/uac 2s and 5s.

if we were given complete sets of er lasers and autocannons (possibly other stuff like rac2s and 5s), i think we might see some better builds on the is side. these would still be inferior is versions of the clan weapons, but it might give us a small range advantage to make the spheroid naysayers go away (and give us spheroids more toys to play with).

Edited by LordNothing, 23 December 2014 - 03:35 AM.