115 replies to this topic

[operatorZ]

MischiefSC, on 24 December 2014 - 10:44 PM, said:

People play like they do in pugs specifically *because* there are no clear coordination rewards - only doing damage and getting kills.

That is what CW rewards. Playing as a team, focusing to objectives and sticking to the plan gives everyone a reward, more than just hanging back, trying to run up damage and kills. A skirmish mode would destroy that.

.

IMHO....the statements above are untrue and misleading...here's why....

People play like they do in pugs because it's a public que and everybody ...and I mean everybody....can join and play
5 year olds
80 year olds
The drunk
The insane
The griefers
The trolls
The inexperienced
The casual
The hardcore
The LRM spammers

None of this has anything to do with no coordination goals....because....
Coordination pays huge dividends in skirmish or death match....huge
If everybody Leroy Jenkins and does there own thing ...guess who wins...not that team
The most coordinated team wins most every time in skirmish....just like invasion

A skirmish mode would absolutely not destroy CW..why you ask? Because it's function in CW would not increase or decrease the amount of coordination currently needed to win a match. Because the best coordinated team would win...just like invasion. Because winning skirmish in CW would IMHO take more skill than "hey let's Zerg the generators" .....

Roadbeer, on 24 December 2014 - 11:11 PM, said:

I'm betting you always run to the PUGZAPPER in Terra Derpa too

If you have any logical argument....now is the time....

[Karl Marlow]

Roadbeer, on 24 December 2014 - 11:11 PM, said:

I'm betting you always run to the PUGZAPPER in Terra Derpa too

It's only a pugzapper if you are teh second force there.

[Kjudoon]

::::sheds tear of joy::::

You said PugZapper on Terra Derpa.

I'm so proud of you.

My corruption of the language has begun.

Edited by Kjudoon, 24 December 2014 - 11:32 PM.

[Mystere]

operatorZ, on 24 December 2014 - 10:46 PM, said:

Nice words .....but my point still stands,

yes...killing the enemy is an objective

And no...this isn't real military strategy nor even close to it....

So save the Sun Tzu...and the exaggerated methodology ....if you can't say it clearly...don't

Did you just quote and respond to yourself?

[vandalhooch]

What about a modification that rewards losers of a death match for not losing badly?

A planet square takes 10,000 points to conquer. Winning an invasion match earns 1000 points. A successful counter attack takes back that 1000 points. Throw in a large number of death matches, each worth 100 points, but the winner only receives a percentage of that 100 equal to the number of functional mechs on their team. A pug team, about to be stomped by a well trained unit, can still help the war effort by reducing the number of victory points their opponents earn by working together to get as many kills as possible. Losing to the Lords 48-18 has much more meaning to the planetary battle than losing 48-2.

[RapierE01]

Quote

MahKraah


cw definitly need to utilize all game modes and must not be restricted to the gun kill->win
what about a series of matches to win a sector:
1. kill the gun to allow your main force to land
2. do a assault match to create your beach head
3. do a conquest to take over enemy installations
4. everything in place now the armys duke it out with a skirmishmode match
to get to thenext stage you need to win on the current stage.
once you finished 4th stage with a win you win a sector

I would like to see Matches like this. for the other gametypes you need to choose 1 Mech of your Dropdeck. Rest could be normal rules.

[bigbill12345]

A variety of mission types would be nice. I am not a big fan of skirmish mode, but the occasional mission to eliminate all enemy forces would be fun.

[MischiefSC]

operatorZ, on 24 December 2014 - 11:25 PM, said:

IMHO....the statements above are untrue and misleading...here's why....

People play like they do in pugs because it's a public que and everybody ...and I mean everybody....can join and play
5 year olds
80 year olds
The drunk
The insane
The griefers
The trolls
The inexperienced
The casual
The hardcore
The LRM spammers

None of this has anything to do with no coordination goals....because....
Coordination pays huge dividends in skirmish or death match....huge
If everybody Leroy Jenkins and does there own thing ...guess who wins...not that team
The most coordinated team wins most every time in skirmish....just like invasion

A skirmish mode would absolutely not destroy CW..why you ask? Because it's function in CW would not increase or decrease the amount of coordination currently needed to win a match. Because the best coordinated team would win...just like invasion. Because winning skirmish in CW would IMHO take more skill than "hey let's Zerg the generators" .....



If you have any logical argument....now is the time....

Coordination doesn't pay dividends in Skirmish. Kills and damage do. Winning is secondary.

In CW the payout isn't the 'win'. Winning the planet is the win.

Make sense? There's a huge difference.

Pug/premade queue is won or lost on your personal performance because you're there to earn cbills/xp. Win/loss is nice but there is no real reason for people to coordinate. I've been pugbossing for years. It's not easy but you can do it. Yes, it pays dividends but not a ton more since win/loss is also affected by Elo and the like. There is no 'we're doomed if we don't coordinate' because there's an approximately equal balance regardless of what you do.

CW doesn't have that either. You win because you out-maneuvered the other team. Hence, again, why pugs beat premades in CW regularly when they coordinate. You can coordinate 2man groups in the group queue all day and be very, very unlikely to beat a 12man. CW alters that equation by letting you focus on multiple objectives for the win, including everything that Skirmish has *plus* alternate win objectives.

Take beating Clanners on Sulfur. There are some great Clanner teams. Better pilots by a big stretch. If you let them make the match about accuracy and focus-fire they're going to grind you down, no question, because that's there strength. You make it about the high heat of Clanner builds on Sulfur and the need to protect/destroy key objectives and you change that a lot. If it were a straight Skirmish map the Clanners just play offensive on Boreal and defensive on Sulfur and a skilled team has an insurmountable advantage.

That's the problem. Skirmish makes your skill at putting mechs down the only skill that matters. Go pug on the Kurita border, see what that's like. You won't be with pugs who are willing/able to stick to a plan. FRR is better, Steiner even better. Pug an IS vs IS match and see what pugs who play for a team look like. A pure pug 12man in the Dav/Mar border on either side I would easily, *easily* put in a competitive match against any Clanner 12man. Depending on the map it'd be close to a shocking embarrassment. Not because they are better at killing mechs but better overall tactically and with teamwork. If it was Skirmish though that disappears again because focused fire becomes the deciding factor. At which point the IS will consist of TDR ERPPC and pulse boats.

[C E Dwyer]

If you want death match use the death match skirmish option

People that can't think of anything, but, must... kill.. mechs... have their brainless version of the game, in arena mode, no need to go screw up the campaign.

[ztac]

I guess it all boils down to the player base as to what they can or could do. But this is shrouded in secrecy the actual number of players in the game. And with CW that splits the player base further , especially with people still playing the other game modes too!

[Kjudoon]

If you are a defender in CW, you are already playing skirmish mode with a side of full on brawltardery. If you are attacking/counterattackikng you're in assault mode with a side of conquest.

[bobF]

Threads like this are why I'm amused by this noob-at-pvp-games playerbase. Only middle-aged chumps that fancy themselves "competitive" would argue AGAINST expanding game modes in CW.

"But bobF, deathmatch isn't ultra tactical, it's a simple-minded gamemode with no place in CW!"

Really? And your zerg rush/anti zerg rush battles are so very deep and non-predictable, amirite? A game mode where it's more viable to NOT ENGAGE THE DEFENDERS and simply nascar to a generator, that's ultra skilled play right there, nothing like the low-brow deathmatch mode.

"But bobF, multiple objectives make it possible for PUGs to beat premades, we don't have that in deathmatch!"

What a ****** joke. Are you kidding me? With all the whine threads being put up it's fairly obvious that PUGs are besting premades all over the place, amirite? No one is demanding that pgi nerf clans, again, to keep CW "balanced," because PUGs are proving consistently that they can overcome a premade, quiaff?! And did someone post some nonsense about Dav/Marik pug pilots being all kinds of undercover elite? That's a laugh. I have yet to see any of you clowns queuing up for Clan battles, and if you do, you just lose the planet anyway. Such amazing pilots.

Put down that christmas pipe. There's no viable reason to keep more game modes out of CW except one reason: fear. You're scared of having to engage the enemy to flip a planet, instead of cheddar rushing, or lag shield light mech feinting, or <insert standard siege pvp cheese tactic here>. It's ridiculous that every planet in the Inner Sphere is either Venus or Hoth. We have other maps and game modes RIGHT NOW, but some of you don't want them in CW??? I thought this was a PvP game????

[Kjudoon]

All game modes are won by the most efficient method to achieve victory conditions. From MWO to REAL sports like Football to the military fighting a real war. Run it till they stop it and do it the most efficient way possible with the greatest effect and fewest casualties.

Since we don't have R&R or logistics in the game, King Pyhrrus would be proud of the victories we have here because let's face it... most of these victories on a much more realistic campaign setting would spell doom for those who undertook them. Imagine if losses sustained in your unit or faction from one battle to the next without time to resupply took place? What if units started getting max number of drops in CW a day, modified by the # of mechs lost? Hope you don't outstrip your ability to get back up to strength.

https://en.wikipedia...Pyrrhic_victory

Costs force responsible strategy and smart game play. MWO has zero costs for gambling all and losing. Oh well, next match.

But, everyone hollering for Skirmish... Skirmish EVERYWHERE! are nothing more than mini King Pyhrrus' running around because they can and it costs them nothing.

Edited by Kjudoon, 25 December 2014 - 12:00 PM.

[Roland]

Roadbeer, on 24 December 2014 - 10:54 PM, said:

No, we can't have skirmish mode because it sucks.

Nothing else needs to be said.

The only objective in Skirmish mode is to prove who is the least derpy of the derps.

MURDERBALL....HOOOOOOO!

You aren't grasping the full complexity of mech combat.

Edited by Roland, 25 December 2014 - 01:35 PM.

[Savage Wolf]

Roland, on 25 December 2014 - 01:34 PM, said:

You aren't grasping the full complexity of mech combat.

The same could be said about a lot of people concerning objective play.

[Roadbeer]

Roland, on 25 December 2014 - 01:34 PM, said:

You aren't grasping the full complexity of mech combat.

What you did there, I see it.

[bobF]

I don't always PvE, but when I do, it's in a siege PvP game mode.

[operatorZ]

bobF, on 25 December 2014 - 11:42 AM, said:

Threads like this are why I'm amused by this noob-at-pvp-games playerbase. Only middle-aged chumps that fancy themselves &quot;competitive&quot; would argue AGAINST expanding game modes in CW.

&quot;But bobF, deathmatch isn't ultra tactical, it's a simple-minded gamemode with no place in CW!&quot;

Really? And your zerg rush/anti zerg rush battles are so very deep and non-predictable, amirite? A game mode where it's more viable to NOT ENGAGE THE DEFENDERS and simply nascar to a generator, that's ultra skilled play right there, nothing like the low-brow deathmatch mode.

&quot;But bobF, multiple objectives make it possible for PUGs to beat premades, we don't have that in deathmatch!&quot;

What a ****** joke. Are you kidding me? With all the whine threads being put up it's fairly obvious that PUGs are besting premades all over the place, amirite? No one is demanding that pgi nerf clans, again, to keep CW &quot;balanced,&quot; because PUGs are proving consistently that they can overcome a premade, quiaff?! And did someone post some nonsense about Dav/Marik pug pilots being all kinds of undercover elite? That's a laugh. I have yet to see any of you clowns queuing up for Clan battles, and if you do, you just lose the planet anyway. Such amazing pilots.

Put down that christmas pipe. There's no viable reason to keep more game modes out of CW except one reason: fear. You're scared of having to engage the enemy to flip a planet, instead of cheddar rushing, or lag shield light mech feinting, or &lt;insert standard siege pvp cheese tactic here&gt;. It's ridiculous that every planet in the Inner Sphere is either Venus or Hoth. We have other maps and game modes RIGHT NOW, but some of you don't want them in CW??? I thought this was a PvP game????

Well....Mischief ....I don't think I'm getting anywhere with you or me with you. We have totally different takes about this idea. So I'll let it go as agree to disagree. PGI will implement all the current game modes in CW , that I am sure of and when it happens it will be good for CW, that I am also sure of. Merry Christmas!

And RoadBeer next time try putting an argument together instead of resorting to weak insults....people might actually listen to you. Merry Christmas!

The post I quoted above is a little more aggressive in tone than I would like but the more I argue for new modes in CW, which should be an obviouse yes, and the more resistance, very illogical resistance IMHO the more I think there is something to bobf's point here.

Any who....carry on.

[operatorZ]

Kjudoon, on 25 December 2014 - 10:21 AM, said:

If you are a defender in CW, you are already playing skirmish mode with a side of full on brawltardery. If you are attacking/counterattackikng you're in assault mode with a side of conquest.

And here you are just makingmy point for me.....as I have said at least 3 times....skirmish is just like invasion there is literally no difference except a second objective "gun" that can end the game early....

So that being recognized and understood adding skirmish or assault to CW changes nothing except makes CW more diverse

[Roadbeer]

operatorZ, on 25 December 2014 - 02:40 PM, said:

And RoadBeer next time try putting an argument together instead of resorting to weak insults....people might actually listen to you. Merry Christmas!

Shhhh, Honey, no.
It's a well known and popular fact that Skirmish mode sucks and appeals only to the Call of Battlehalo crowd. It's the modern day version of



It takes no skill what-so-ever to play skirmimish. Come back with an attrition mode that requires more than DERP. ALPHA. DERP. and I'm game.
No greater argument is needed, I don't need to write 1,000 words about how Deathmatch is bad and you should feel bad for liking it.

Merry Christmas!

Edited by Roadbeer, 25 December 2014 - 03:21 PM.