236 replies to this topic

[CocoaJin]

YueFei, on 25 December 2014 - 05:10 PM, said:

Crit-seeking is a problematic niche to try to carve out in this game, due to the crit system of MWO.

A PPC that does 9 damage to armor and penetrates to deal 1 damage to internal structure still has the same percentage chance of scoring a crit and dealing the full 10 damage to a piece of equipment. That is enough to outright destroy most equipment, on top of adding 1.5/3.0/4.5 damage to the internals.

You can replace PPC with single-shot AC or Gauss and it's the same kind of idea. Weapons with a single large front-loaded damaging impact can just outright delete equipment from your mech.

The crit-seeking weapons they've put into MWO are given higher probability of scoring a crit, but they deal damage in smaller packets or over longer periods of time. The crit damage from MG's may even be split among different equipment in a component, failing to destroy anything and merely damaging 2 or 3 different pieces of equipment.

And with limited exposure time (due to movement, twisting, getting into cover, maintaining longer range, or other enemies closing in and forcing you to break off or do your own defensive twisting), it's harder to take full advantage of that higher crit chance to really clean a component of all its equipment.

They'd have to make MG's pretty godly at critting stuff to make them better than simply removing the component with straight-up damage. Or buff internal structure health. Or a combo of the two.

Currently an Atlas has 53 health in a side torso once the armor is gone. If an Atlas just stares at someone, even a 50-ton HBK can push out 55+ damage in 2 seconds and outright remove the side torso. Even before quirks that giga-buffed the rate of fire, a HBK could do it in about 4 seconds. And MG's are DoT weapons anyways.

That's all fine...it's a secondary, improvised anti-mech weapon, I'm just happy to be able easily mount a couple for little weight in order to boost the little bit of damage my small mechs can deliver.

[wanderer]

Vassago Rain, on 25 December 2014 - 03:11 PM, said:

Light rifles can't actually damage mechs, and the tonnage to damage profile makes the AC5 and AC2 far superior weapons, anyway.

What you should be asking for are light ACs. Those are AC5s and AC2s, that cut range to use less tonnage and crits.

Actually, in TT a light rifle can't damage Mech armor, but will deal full damage to internals. It's a lot like MWO MG's in that regard, and slight tweaking would make light rifles similar, though with scaled up punch for the weight and lower ROF.

Light AC's are decades down the road in game time.

[Burktross]

I don't suppose anyone knows how to configure the afformentioned 2.5 second turns in megamek? That sounds incredibly fun!

[Mcgral18]

Burktross, on 25 December 2014 - 08:08 PM, said:

I don't suppose anyone knows how to configure the afformentioned 2.5 second turns in megamek? That sounds incredibly fun!

This thing does that, and it's pretty fun.

It uses the MegaMek assets:
http://minimek.sourc...ek/RogueMek.htm

Koniving might know how to do it on regular MegaMek.

[KraftySOT]

wanderer, on 25 December 2014 - 05:55 PM, said:

Actually, in TT a light rifle can't damage Mech armor, but will deal full damage to internals. It's a lot like MWO MG's in that regard, and slight tweaking would make light rifles similar, though with scaled up punch for the weight and lower ROF.

Light AC's are decades down the road in game time.

But my rifle armed jump platoons are doing damage to armor?

0.54 a trooper.

Light rifles look like .33

[Y E O N N E]

wanderer, on 25 December 2014 - 05:55 PM, said:

Actually, in TT a light rifle can't damage Mech armor, but will deal full damage to internals. It's a lot like MWO MG's in that regard, and slight tweaking would make light rifles similar, though with scaled up punch for the weight and lower ROF.

Light AC's are decades down the road in game time.

As far as I am aware, MGs don't have a damage penalty against armor in MWO. Everything does its base damage against armor.

[Mercules]

Mudhutwarrior, on 24 December 2014 - 01:51 PM, said:

I just had a lite pilot (a really good one) tear me apart with MG's. If it wasn't for my lites I would have been dead meat. I think they are good.

No they didn't. They tore you apart with some other weapon system with MGs supplementing it because they had the room for them and they don't do heat. They are not "Good" they are at best, "Okay" and "Worth it if you can't put something better on for the tonnage and crits."

CocoaJin, on 25 December 2014 - 05:50 PM, said:

That's all fine...it's a secondary, improvised anti-mech weapon.

But they aren't. They are a full fledged Anti-Mech Weapon just like Small Lasers. There is nothing "Improvised" about using them against mechs.

[cSand]

Davegt27, on 24 December 2014 - 02:49 AM, said:

what is really needed is a weapon in between the MG and the AC2/Cac2 and UAC2

one or two ton weight double the pwr of the MG

2 machine guns?

[Deathlike]

FupDup, on 25 December 2014 - 03:34 PM, said:

A 6 MG Spider would have a devastating effect on the back of an Atlas!

Waiting for that day to come...

[wanderer]

Yeonne Greene, on 25 December 2014 - 09:52 PM, said:

As far as I am aware, MGs don't have a damage penalty against armor in MWO. Everything does its base damage against armor.

MWO MGs are far more damaging to internals vs armor- like rifles deal -3 damage in TT vs Mech armor (which is why light rifles in TT don't threaten them much unless someone opens it up first.)

[Y E O N N E]

MWO MGs can get a crit on internals, which is the only thing making them more damaging there. You were phrasing it as if they weren't doing their full 0.08 damage per round, and that's not the case.

As such, they have no penalty against armor, but they also don't get their bonuses until shooting at the guts of a 'Mech.

[Lil Cthulhu]

TheSilkenPimp, on 24 December 2014 - 03:33 PM, said:

I want them to sound like .50 cal guns not pea shooters. Let me at least sound ferocious with them

I would rather them sound like the GAU-8 on the A10, just imagine how six of them going off on a jagermech would sound.

[Xanquil]

The GAU-8 is more like the RAC2 to be honest.
I agree though MGs need to be buffed the damage is just too low. Considering that in Battletech the MGs mounted on mechs (and other units) are designed to be anti-armor weapons.
The http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Piranha isn't scary because of the energy weapons it carries, it is because those 12 MGs strip mechs of their armor in a seconds (up to 24 points every 10s in TT)

MGs are intended to be a main weapon on lights, but sadly in MWO the damage is just too low.

(at least they are not as bad as flamers )

[CocoaJin]

Mercules, on 25 December 2014 - 10:37 PM, said:

But they aren't. They are a full fledged Anti-Mech Weapon just like Small Lasers. There is nothing "Improvised" about using them against mechs.

Every description of MGs and their intended use I've seen on Sarna has described them a anti-infantry and soft-target weapon systems. The only time I've ever seen the MG even suggested as a primary anti-mech weapon was on the Pirhana, which strapped on so many, that the combined DPS made it viable. Individually, they are not anti-mech weapons...let's be real, if you put enough water hoses together, you could take down a mech...but let's not pretend water hoses are primary anti-mech weapons.

MGs are improvised anti-mech weapaons that have a secondary function of being capable of damaging mechs.

[Mcgral18]

CocoaJin, on 26 December 2014 - 01:49 PM, said:

MGs are improvised anti-mech weapaons that have a secondary function of being capable of damaging mechs.

Other way around, actually.

They are designed to hurt mech armour up close, but also function wonderfully as anti infantry.

[FupDup]

Mcgral18, on 26 December 2014 - 01:56 PM, said:

Other way around, actually.

They are designed to hurt mech armour up close, but also function wonderfully as anti infantry.

I view it as being good against robots and having an added bonus against meatbags.

[Keira RAVEN McKenna]

VixNix, on 24 December 2014 - 05:16 AM, said:

I think MG's should do nothing until armor is gone...

Actually thats not so silly... Zero effect on armour and maximum effect on exposed bones and chaos on criticals

[wanderer]

That idea is....no. As it is,MWO tweaked MGs to be bad at armor but better at internal-shredding.

Let's just note here that I can take a rifle and damage 'Mech armor.

It's ablative. It's literally designed to crumble and melt away energy, unlike modern tank armor. The drawback is it's easier to damage. The advantage is it can absorb hits from weaponry that would saw a modern tank in half without penetrating.

[Mcgral18]

Removing the CoF is another popular option, and would also be a powerful buff in it's own right.

[CocoaJin]

I'd be ok with MGs being a tad bit stronger and possibly even with a reduced CoF, if:

1) There were no longer hitscan.

2a) They no longer could be fired continuously without consequence. Im fine with them not generating heat for the mech, but the MG itself should heat up with continued firing resulting in an increased chance of jamming, with an ultimate heat level that jams the gun.

Or

2b) They fire in bursts like a SPL, but with a shorter cool down between firings.

That being said, I'd love to see some one come up with a canonical source for MGs being anti-mech weapons...not that they have been used against mechs, but that they primarily anti-mech in nature. Every source I've seen explicitly and/or implicitly describes MGs and the mechs that use them as anti-infantry and soft target munitions/platforms. In all the discussions I've been part of(I've been in many since Beta) regarding MGs, not once had anyone provided a single reference to refute my abundance of references supporting my position that MGs are improvised /secondary weapons against mechs.

Edited by CocoaJin, 04 January 2015 - 05:38 PM.