56 replies to this topic

[Lumicko]

So IM using Wolverine Medium mech. Im actually pretty much sniping with my Pulse Lasers... And I feel like paper.. I get hit a few times ( not always close range but also from other mechs / snipers..) and im almost critical damaged / destroyed... And others appear to me that they withstand muuuch more than me and I dont get why... I just feel like paper and they are like rocks.... My armor is almost everywhere on max.
Whats the point of medium mech if its such paper and cant even load that much weapons??? Is Heavy / assault superior to all??

Edited by Lumicko, 24 December 2014 - 01:31 PM.

[Soul Tribunal]

It really all boils down to what is hitting you and how long you are being focused on.
A Medium has decent armor for its class, and actually the Wolverine is better than most (all 55 Tonners are good armor).
But, and this is the big but...you cannot Stare down and face higher weight classes for long and expect to survive.

If you are being hit, for example by Gauss Rifles , that is 15 damage per hit, Jagers and Dire Wolves can carry 2 a piece, 30 Pin point damage can hurt. PPC's as well cause a ton of damage.
The best tactic I can suggest is strike and fade, shoot and as you retreat to cover twist your torso. You need to spread damage to prolong your mech.
Even light mechs can take you out quickly if you give them the chance to focus their shots on one specific part of your chassis.

-ST

[Lumicko]

Soul Tribunal, on 24 December 2014 - 01:36 PM, said:

It really all boils down to what is hitting you and how long you are being focused on.
A Medium has decent armor for its class, and actually the Wolverine is better than most (all 55 Tonners are good armor).
But, and this is the big but...you cannot Stare down and face higher weight classes for long and expect to survive.

If you are being hit, for example by Gauss Rifles , that is 15 damage per hit, Jagers and Dire Wolves can carry 2 a piece, 30 Pin point damage can hurt. PPC's as well cause a ton of damage.
The best tactic I can suggest is strike and fade, shoot and as you retreat to cover twist your torso. You need to spread damage to prolong your mech.
Even light mechs can take you out quickly if you give them the chance to focus their shots on one specific part of your chassis.

-ST

Thx.... But doesnt that just make medium mechs just weak compared to others,?? Example heavy or assault can have a lot more armor thus withstand a loot more and can even take more guns thus even higher dps...

[LauLiao]

Mediums tend to need a good amount of speed to protect themselves. They are hard-limited on how much armor they can have, and many heavies and most assaults can put out enough damage in a single alpha to strip any single section of a medium of armor completely. By staying mobile you make it harder to the bigger mechs to hit you at all in the first place, and if they do hit you, your speed should make it so that they can't focus their fire on your damaged sections. Most mediums I run I try to keep the speed at or close to 100 kph. As a medium you're not going to be able to go toe to toe with any other mechs except lights, so don't try. Stay near allied assaults and heavies, and use your mobility to flank their targets. If an enemy is faced with your Wolverine and a MadCat/Timberwolf, chances are they'll be more concerned about the MC/TW, leaving you free to harass the enemy with minimal return fire.

[LauLiao]

Lumicko, on 24 December 2014 - 01:38 PM, said:

Thx.... But doesnt that just make medium mechs just weak compared to others,?? Example heavy or assault can have a lot more armor thus withstand a loot more and can even take more guns thus even higher dps...

This is why he was telling you to "strike and fade". This is not something that heavies and assaults can do well because they tend to be slower and less mobile. In my mediums I can usually take out Heavies, and almost always Assaults, but it requires an entirely different play style, and a lot more patience. Mediums really should be played more like lights. The idea being that you have to find ways to AVOID taking fire in the first place if possible.

[Rear Admiral Tier 6]

Torso twist and use cover,try to shadow your teams heavy hitters without blocking them and firing them in the back.

Easier said than done tho,but practice makes perfect.

[luxebo]

Mediums are designed as support mechs. It makes no sense to tank in a Medium when an Atlas is right next to you. Which if you are attempting to be a frontliner, that is bad as you should be more on the sidelines supporting all your heavier troops. You also need your speed, if you aren't using a fast engine, try to.

Also, a key thing is hitboxes, a lot of Mediums have stronger spread hitboxes that allow them to simply be better survivors than a heavy mech. (Catapults/Jagers/Quickies/Dragons all have worse hitboxes. Their wide CT's and ST's make em easier to hit and make them glass cannons.) Centurions, Shads, Griffins, Wolverines that you are driving atm, and even Hunchbacks when played properly, all have quite good hitboxes that require spreading damage and torso twisting.

If you just stand there, you will die. This is what I tell every newish pilot I see on the field, torso twist don't stand there and try to aim! Even if you miss most damage, at least you got something out rather than near death for one shot. And with the Cent/Hunch/Griff/Shad/Wolv all have most weapons in one section, turn the opposite way! Don't torso twist the wrong side! You have a shield side, use it.

[Lumicko]

LauLiao, on 24 December 2014 - 01:43 PM, said:

This is why he was telling you to "strike and fade". This is not something that heavies and assaults can do well because they tend to be slower and less mobile. In my mediums I can usually take out Heavies, and almost always Assaults, but it requires an entirely different play style, and a lot more patience. Mediums really should be played more like lights. The idea being that you have to find ways to AVOID taking fire in the first place if possible.

Ok thx ... My max speed is 75 using XL engine.. Dont remember which one now. So I dont think that speed is that good... Cant avoid much with that... Having 100+- thats other story I guess... I will try more strike and fade. I was always like peek and fire.. but when I peeked they hit me also and I always take a lot dmg from that.. So I just peek get hits and hide.. Peek fire and get hits hide.. And then im dmged quite well..

IM trying to aim as much as I can... I hit pretty well.. Often at the end I have 500+ dmg or even 900 or 300... Depends how long I survive.

Edited by Lumicko, 24 December 2014 - 02:20 PM.

[Saiphas Cain]

That's too slow for any medium in my opinion unless you have a phenomenal gimmick. My experience is in Shadow Hawks rather than Wolverines but I play them highly mobile in most cases. My best one runs the XL 360 from my Victor. Armament is light but it runs as fast as most lights, and it jumps making it impossible to disengage from unless your inches from an ally. Granted, engine that big may be excessive, and it precludes my mounting an autocannon.

Edited by Saiphas Cain, 24 December 2014 - 02:22 PM.

[Lumicko]

Saiphas Cain, on 24 December 2014 - 02:20 PM, said:

That's too slow for any medium in my opinion unless you have a phenomenal gimmick. My experience is in Shadow Hawks rather than Wolverines but I play them highly mobile in most cases. My best one runs the XL 360 from my Victor. Armament is light but it runs as fast as most lights, and it jumps making it impossible to disengage from unless your inches from an ally. Granted, engine that big may be excessive, and it precludes my mounting an autocannon.

I have 4x Pulse Laser and im using XL 255... max tonnage. IF I would use higher XL it requires more tonnage im correct? Thus I wouldnot be able to use 4x Pulse laser

[Revorn]

XL 300 and 3 LP can be fine. 97 kph is verry usefully to avoid getting be hitted to much.

[Dagon Zur]

How much back armor do you have?
You dont need more than 8-10 back armor on a medium mech.

[Tarogato]

The Wolverine is a great mech to start with, you've made a nice choice.

1. Start with something like 12 or 14 armour on all three of your rear torsos. Everything else should be in the front. (ideally you should not be getting hit in the back very much. Adjust your playstyle so that you take all your damage in the front and you can spread it across all five parts by torso twisting: your arms, your CT, and your side torsos.)
2. Try to line up your shots while you're in cover, so that you can fire immediately when you come out, and then you can go back to cover immediately as well.
3. Never engage alone - always be around teammates. When your teammates are taking fire is the best time to strike, because you know the enemy is already focused on something that isn't you. (but if your teammate is getting shredded and you poke out the same place as him, you bet you're going to get messed up too.)
4. When you're not lining up your shot, try to be facing at a 90-degree angle to the enemy so when they shoot, they'll hit your arm that doesn't have weapons ("shield arm"). When you're taking incoming fire, try to torso twist to face your least damaged parts to the enemy. If you have a weak component like a side torso, you can die quickly, so you need to hide it so it can't be hit.
5. Standing still is a death sentence - mediums excel at moving quickly, spreading damage across all their armour, and engaging while the enemy is focused on juicier targets.

---

That said, there are two ways to build a Wolverine: you can go for a fast brawly mech: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...4cc30041c1d9405
Or you can go for a slower ranged mech: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...5ef3325d1d79bd6

The fast brawly builds are designed to go in deep when the going gets rough. Try to strike weak targets and avoid being focused by the enemy.
The slow ranger builds are designed for laying down some real hurt, but require some positioning skills, because they're slower. They can't reposition as quickly, so you need to get it right the first time.

Hope this helps.

Edited by Tarogato, 24 December 2014 - 03:25 PM.

[Rogue Jedi]

Lumicko, on 24 December 2014 - 02:29 PM, said:

I have 4x Pulse Laser and im using XL 255... max tonnage. IF I would use higher XL it requires more tonnage im correct? Thus I wouldnot be able to use 4x Pulse laser

if you are using 4 Large Pulse Lasers, that is a lot of heat, you would get a far higher Damage Per Second with 2 or 3 LPL, a larger engine and more heat sinks, with the 4 LPL if you fire as fast as they recycle even without taking ghost heat into account you will overheat on the third shot.

I am guessing this is roughly the build you are using:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...cd5b444fd9102b3

I would suggest trying something like this:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b00aaa08be938c4
my suggestion runs cooler, has a higher DPS fire the ML with the LPLs, avoid firing if further than 500m from the enemies as the weapon power starts dropping off at about 400m, it does effectively no damage past 700m, you can keep firing just the lasers as they cycle for at least 36 seconds (and you will rarely need to be firing for that long at a time), the SRM4 gives you some extra firepower at closer ranges.

alternately you can use a 3 LPL build like this:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...f771ac08ab558df
provided you do not fire all 3 together you will be able to keep firing non stop for about 20 seconds

at minimum I would advise a 275 engine (81 KPH, 89 after speed tweak) in the 55 tonners, preferably a 300 (89, 97 after speed tweak)

[Soul Tribunal]

Lumicko, on 24 December 2014 - 01:38 PM, said:

Thx.... But doesnt that just make medium mechs just weak compared to others,?? Example heavy or assault can have a lot more armor thus withstand a loot more and can even take more guns thus even higher dps...

Everything in mechwarrior and, to be honest actual Warefare is a trade off of Firepower, Durability, and Mobilty. The Holy Trinity as they call it.

Heavy Mechs and Assault Mechs Trade the most crucial (in my eyes) for longevity. That is the Mobilty part of it. With a big enough engine in your Wolverine, you can pop in an out of cover quite quickly, taking shots and repositioning. The Most important thing to do is, if you pop out and shoot and take any return fire, do not pop out at the same spot twice. Use your Agility and high speed to reposition so you can take shots from a different angle. This is where the Medium mech shines.
Agility is your weapon, and it can be life and death for you. The biggest mistake players in this game make is to assume that success is based solely on Tonnage and Armor.
Yet some of the best success come from those chassis that devote a lot of their design to agility/Mobility.

Countless people will chime in, I am sure, of war stories taking down Atlas, Dire Wolves, King Crabs in their 20T Locust, or in the bigger Firestarters and Jenners. Why? Because our mobilty negates their Firepower.
Mediums, are the perfect blend of everything, you just need to find their niche in your playstyle.

-ST

[Void Angel]

Lumicko, on 24 December 2014 - 01:38 PM, said:

Thx.... But doesnt that just make medium mechs just weak compared to others,?? Example heavy or assault can have a lot more armor thus withstand a loot more and can even take more guns thus even higher dps...

As others have pointed out, you've got to use your mobility with a Medium Battlemech. Your strength is that you have a fair amount of guns with a moderate amount of armor and good mobility - Heavies have more firepower, but speed costs them more, while Lights have fantastic mobility but even less guns. In order to use a Medium properly, you have to be fast: try to shadow other 'mechs. One of the tactics I like to use with a Hunchback 4G is to pick a close-range Assault or Heavy to support - I will be their Hunchbuddy. Whenever they're fighting someone around cover, whenever they push into the open to either get to grips with the enemy or move to other cover... I'll be there, a littl behind them and to the side (so I don't block them if they back up) taking shots at people who are trying to flank my Big. If he pokes around a corner and takes fire, I pop out, lend his opponent a charitable contribution of high-velocity lead (with a side of hot photons) and get back into cover before his guns recycle. Whenever my Big pokes his head out, I poke out with him. And if it comes down to the wire and you're getting overrun, you can charge through the attackers and divert their attention as much as you can - either they let you get behind them and you open up with the AC/20, or they focus on you and the Big gets to do his job. This strategy is far from foolproof, but it should allow you to get a handle on how to fight your Medium without the distraction of getting plastered. Much of your problem is that you're not getting the practice you need because you're likely exposing yourself in the wrong situations and getting focus fired to bits.

Speaking of focus fire, you need to be aware of the two classes of 'Mech out there: Clans and Inner Sphere. There is some overlap on weapons technology, but in general the differences in Clan and Inner Sphere weaponry are exemplified by their respective autocannons - The Inner Sphere ACs fire one large round for their rated damage, while the Clans fire a rapid-fire stream of shells whose damage adds up to the AC's rating. This is not optimal; ideally you want all of your damage on one spot, and the longer a weapon takes to apply damage, the more your target can twist and turn to spread it out. To make up for this disadvantage, the Clans weapons are much lighter and mostly have longer ranges - additionally, their laser weapons are much less efficient in terms of heat/second, and their upgrades and Double Heat Sinks cost considerably less space. There's more to Clan v. IS balance than that, but that's a general overview.

The take-away from all of that is that Clans have lots of guns, with lots of range - so if you expose yourself to multiple Clanners, you can generally expect it to hurt, particularly in a Medium. The upside of it is that Clanner builds are (generally) less able to sustain fire. If you can spread or avoid damage by twisting, weaving, or giving them too many targets, they're at a disadvantage in many cases - but if you let them whale on you, it's going to be a very... Hobbsian day (nasty, brutish, and short.)

There are a lot of people both on the forums and in the various Merc units that will happily assist you with questions, and even drop with you. I encourage you to read the two posts I link in my signature; it's shameless self-promotion, because I wrote them, but between them they tell you much of what I wish every player I group with knew. =)f

Regardless, enjoy the game, Merry Christmas, and let us know if we can be of further help!

Edited by Void Angel, 24 December 2014 - 04:00 PM.

[Mobile Ordnance Platform]

you just gotta be careful not to make yourself a target
find your assault lance and just support them, shoot what they shoot and defend them from flanks
when u can sense the enemy line is breaking you can move in to flank and finish

as a medium your fast enough to move around where needed with decent firepower but u dont have the defense capability to be gallivanting around the initial front line
if you got high mounted weapons and can peek over hills quickly and start taking shots safely then by all means go for it but otherwise keep a low profile at first

well thats what has got me more longevity in some mediums, im sure better players and different mechs can be more aggressive

[Nick Makiaveli]

Lumicko, on 24 December 2014 - 01:38 PM, said:

Thx.... But doesnt that just make medium mechs just weak compared to others,?? Example heavy or assault can have a lot more armor thus withstand a loot more and can even take more guns thus even higher dps...

I'll tell you a secret...an Assault mech that just stands there and takes it, will get nailed.

Torso twisting while your weapons are on cool down is a big help. Especially if you have an arm that has no weapons. Use it to soak damage. As said above keep moving.

Also "pulse" laser are shorter range than normal lasers of that type, though they deal a bit more damage and over a shorter period of time. If you want to snipe, try LL or ERLL instead. Or stick with a group and shoot the same mech as at least one other person is.

That and read alot. Search for Koniving's videos on Youtube and will learn a lot. RedShift2K is another one here that gives good advice.

[Koniving]

Lumicko, on 24 December 2014 - 01:30 PM, said:

So IM using Wolverine Medium mech. Im actually pretty much sniping with my Pulse Lasers...

Have to stop you right there. You're sniping with short range lasers? Regardless of whether small or large, the pulse lasers have very short range compared to...most weapons.

Quote

And I feel like paper.. I get hit a few times ( not always close range but also from other mechs / snipers..) and im almost critical damaged / destroyed... And others appear to me that they withstand muuuch more than me and I dont get why... I just feel like paper and they are like rocks.... My armor is almost everywhere on max.
Whats the point of medium mech if its such paper and cant even load that much weapons??? Is Heavy / assault superior to all??

Did you max armor, or did you allocate armor?
There's a bit of a difference there...

With the Wolverine, try this armor loadout. You'll last quite a bit longer.

But now that you know, stop trying to snipe with pulse lasers. Longest range you can get is 365 meters... which is like fighting someone across the street.

Note: If you're using the Wolverine 6K, you can get an optimum range of 547.5 meters without range modules.
If you add the range module at MAXIMUM unlock (range module level 5) you get 584 meters.

Inner Sphere Large Lasers: 450 meters.
Inner Sphere ER Large Lasers: 675 meters.
Clan Large Pulse lasers: 600 meters.
Clan ER Large Lasers (they have no standard) : 740 meters.

Note: You can reach out to 'double' the stated ranges, as can they. At exactly double the range you deal 0 damage.

They outrange you. Do not snipe with a large pulse laser. What you have is a very powerful brawling weapon, and at best a medium-range weapon (medium range being between 400 meters to 600 meters).

Your advantages are speed, manueverability and, funny enough, tankability. But only while you are moving. Your small body and tight hitboxes are great for spreading damage when you are moving, but if you not moving you are not spreading damage, and if you are not spreading damage you are going to die very quickly.

People who are 'sniping' are not moving. Don't snipe.

Edited by Koniving, 25 December 2014 - 04:43 AM.

[Mirenheart]

Medium mechs are most certainly support mechs, though, you can solo a bigger mech if you really know what you're doing. Trying to stare down a mech while attempting to put your firepower into it is a very bad idea against any weight class, even lights sometimes, because while you have good speed and mobility, you dont have quite enough of either or armor to do so. So, a great place for you to be is popping around corners, at a far range, around bigger allies, or in so close that they cant aim at you as you move around them, which is my favorite to do. Large Pulse Lasers have some decent range, but they work out alot better at Mid to close range, circling around the enemy and riping its back out.

4 LPLasers is far too much for a medium mech, as its really hot. Even a Heavy will have trouble with such a loadout. Instead, MPLas are pretty good, or MLas and one or two LPLas work pretty well. I know, the 6K has those LPL quirks, three may be too much still. Something like this may work out well, though, I'm not too entirely sure as I havent played them yet.

With a build like that, you wanna try to sneak around and get close, or follow a couple heavy/assault mechs into mid to close range, and the get in their and move around as much as possible, as long as there aren't more than 4 enemy mechs around, and you have some bigger allies for them to focus on. Usually, one of two of them may focus on you, while the others will try to stare down your atlas friend as you eat their back. and if all of them turn to try and hit you, they risk ignoring the direwolf or Atlas you came up with and getting ripped apart worse.

In regards to engine size, a 250 is really only good on a few builds, like a STD 250 on a Yenlow with an AC20, on some hunchback builds, and a couple Shadowhawk 2H builds work out with an XL250. Most medium mechs work well with 280 or 300 engines, with the Centurians and Hunchbacks using a 275 as their max. The 55 ton mechs, Wolverine, Shadowhawk, and the Griffin almost require you run an engine between 300 and 350, with the best usually being 325 (for me anyways), as that will get you almsot 100 kph (300 gives you 97kph with speed tweak).

Edited by Mirenderp, 24 December 2014 - 08:39 PM.